Facing easier competition in UFC

[HuskySamoan]

It's a business. MVP isn't and never was a world class fighter, plenty of WWs and MWs outside the UFC beat this guy. Quality of UFC fighter is pretty low and well curated based on style, nationality, personality and looks.

I want

HW: Nemkov
MW : Eblen from PFlator
WW: Musaev from PFL
LW: Akbar from OneFC, Hughes from PFL
FW : Pico from PFLator
BW: Rajbali from Rizin, he's probably BW.

​

WMMA: Sezawa from Rizin, Ditcheva from PFL

Akbar is a 145er, do you not know how ONE works? How do you make a list with Pico for 145 but no Omarov, Keita, Parnasse or Khizriev?

LW is obviously Usman, Vartanyan and Christian Lee. Plenty of other prospects I'd want but those three are all champs and would he top 10 UFC.

BW is Patchy Mix, Razhabali Shaydullaev are big ones too, plenty of insane prospects at this weight as well, the Contender Series does a very bad job.

WW is just the apparency of the UFC not wanting Russian fighters, it's why they passed up on Shamil Musaev, Ramazan Kuramagomedov, Samandar Murodov, Baki Chamsoudinov and even guys like Umalatov. It is what it is.

MW is Eblen and Magomedrasul Gasanov.

LHW I guess Nemkov will never make 205 again so he says so there's nobody.

 

[JustOnce]

It's a business. MVP isn't and never was a world class fighter, plenty of WWs and MWs outside the UFC beat this guy. Quality of UFC fighter is pretty low and well curated based on style, nationality, personality and looks.


Akbar is a 145er, do you not know how ONE works? How do you make a list with Pico for 145 but no Omarov, Keita, Parnasse or Khizriev?

LW is obviously Usman, Vartanyan and Christian Lee. Plenty of other prospects I'd want but those three are all champs and would he top 10 UFC.

BW is Patchy Mix, Razhabali Shaydullaev are big ones too, plenty of insane prospects at this weight as well, the Contender Series does a very bad job.

WW is just the apparency of the UFC not wanting Russian fighters, it's why they passed up on Shamil Musaev, Ramazan Kuramagomedov, Samandar Murodov, Baki Chamsoudinov and even guys like Umalatov. It is what it is.

MW is Eblen and Magomedrasul Gasanov.

LHW I guess Nemkov will never make 205 again so he says so there's nobody.

oh yeah lol fair point

i didn't wanna make a long list lol it gonna get turned into a fantasy thread almost quick and then get sent to a shadow realm lol

but yeah for sure lots of good fighters, and they def need to sign more russians and grapplers for sure...

i know right? no lhw for some reason. wish nemkov could cut to lhw, but i guess that isn't possible...

 

[HuskySamoan]

oh yeah lol fair point

i didn't wanna make a long list lol it gonna get turned into a fantasy thread almost quick and then get sent to a shadow realm lol

but yeah for sure lots of good fighters, and they def need to sign more russians and grapplers for sure...

i know right? no lhw for some reason. wish nemkov could cut to lhw, but i guess that isn't possible...

LHW is 205lbs, in boxing Cruiserweight is 200lbs, Cruiserweight in boxing has always been historically shallow as a division the truth is theres not a lot of 6ft-6'5 215-230lb men at sub 15% body fat running around and the ones that are, are in heavy demand by other sports like Basketball, Football, Wrestling, Rugby, Olympic lifting, Judo, Hockey etc. Like if you're that size in France and athletically talented..you'll likely end up in Judo. In Iran? Wrestling or lifting, in Georgia? Judo, Wrestling or Lifting. Australia? Rugby or AFL, US? Basketball, baseball, football or hockey. Once you get to like 170lbs and especially lower theres so many people with requisite size that theres an overabundance of talent and potential, just a matter of the sport drawing them in. But at 185lbs and above? These sizes human beings are a scarcity globally and in high demand from most major sports it feels like.

 

[MRT]

it's more like people hype wrong people then they fall. i mean look at paddy for example, probably biggest hyped prospect in a long while. I was telling ppl Gordon is better than him, they just wouldn't listen.

look at jiri. ran through everybody other than pereira. pereira just ran through everybody since getting to ufc too.

and it's gotta be said, UFC have great fighters too. when you go up through fire, you can lose for sure. Unless you go tomato cans route like O'Malley and so on.

also, drug testing can come into play i think;;; not to mention they might have peaked before coming over..

To be fair, Jiri was very close to a sure loss to Glover, being down 3-1 on two cards (2-2 on the third) and defending full mount later in the 5th. Kudos to Jiri for pulling that one out though. It was quite surprising to not only see Glover lose dominant position, but get subbed.

Speaking to your original post, I don't think anyone would dispute that the UFC neither has (nor ever had) a monopoly on all the top talent, nor that signing the very best talent was its exclusive priority...but it is quite a leap to conclude that the UFC is not and never has been the premier MMA org. The UFC is the premier org because *generally speaking, over time* it has more of the top talent, and more depth of talent, than the other orgs...and that is ignoring its obvious domination from a profit and growth perspective too, which I know isn't the point here.

The comparisons between LW Dawson and BW Sabatello, and between #12 Paddy and a ONE champ, are a bit puzzling. I think it would be more productive to simply point out that the UFC is clearly also motivated by making money, hence its investment in someone like Paddy. Maybe just say where you think all the non-UFC fighters you have mentioned would slot into their respective UFC divisions now, or what you feel their potential might be, as an argument to illustrate how the UFC is not signing all the best guys.

FWIW, I've enjoyed Sabatello...excellent wrestler, pushes the pace, crazy persona...perhaps a 'Colby lite' in those regards...but he also has holes and a questionable desire/ability to finish, especially when facing top guys. I highly doubt he would even have sniffed an interim title shot (like he got in Bellator, thanks to its lack of depth) if he had to do work in the UFC BW division. Despite your feelings on how he matches up with O'Malley (I think that is crazy talk lol), I think Sabatello gets tooled by the top 5 and loses to most of the top 10...mmmmmaybe grinding out a couple of lay'n'pray decisions over guys who utterly fail at TDD and can't expose his mediocre striking. He's a (very) poor man's Merab...wouldn't do nearly as well, IMHO...but it would have been interesting to see. The guy isn't old...should make the jump and give it a go, given what a shit show PFL has turned into.

 

[JustOnce]

LHW is 205lbs, in boxing Cruiserweight is 200lbs, Cruiserweight in boxing has always been historically shallow as a division the truth is theres not a lot of 6ft-6'5 215-230lb men at sub 15% body fat running around and the ones that are, are in heavy demand by other sports like Basketball, Football, Wrestling, Rugby, Olympic lifting, Judo, Hockey etc. Like if you're that size in France and athletically talented..you'll likely end up in Judo. In Iran? Wrestling or lifting, in Georgia? Judo, Wrestling or Lifting. Australia? Rugby or AFL, US? Basketball, baseball, football or hockey. Once you get to like 170lbs and especially lower theres so many people with requisite size that theres an overabundance of talent and potential, just a matter of the sport drawing them in. But at 185lbs and above? These sizes human beings are a scarcity globally and in high demand from most major sports it feels like.

That makes sense. Maybe when the LHW was a stacked division, maybe we should've appreciated it more lol.

I mean not that long ago, we had Nemkov, Jiri coming up the ranks too around the same time, it doesn't feel like that long ago, but I guess sometimes the prospect pipeline doesn't always continue to pump them out depending on demographics. It may take a while maybe, hope not though.

Funny thing is though, even back then, MMA seemed expanding rapidly, and I think we all thought that we would get more and more prospects, but prospect pool doesn't seem to necessarily have changed. Like even with Fedor team for instance, it was Nemkov from what 10 years ago, then nothing really.

Maybe it has more to do with talents they can find, I don't know.

 

[JustOnce]

To be fair, Jiri was very close to a sure loss to Glover, being down 3-1 on two cards (2-2 on the third) and defending full mount later in the 5th. Kudos to Jiri for pulling that one out though. It was quite surprising to not only see Glover lose dominant position, but get subbed.

Speaking to your original post, I don't think anyone would dispute that the UFC neither has (nor ever had) a monopoly on all the top talent, nor that signing the very best talent was its exclusive priority...but it is quite a leap to conclude that the UFC is not and never has been the premier MMA org. The UFC is the premier org because *generally speaking, over time* it has more of the top talent, and more depth of talent, than the other orgs...and that is ignoring its obvious domination from a profit and growth perspective too, which I know isn't the point here.

The comparisons between LW Dawson and BW Sabatello, and between #12 Paddy and a ONE champ, are a bit puzzling. I think it would be more productive to simply point out that the UFC is clearly also motivated by making money, hence its investment in someone like Paddy. Maybe just say where you think all the non-UFC fighters you have mentioned would slot into their respective UFC divisions now, or what you feel their potential might be, as an argument to illustrate how the UFC is not signing all the best guys.

FWIW, I've enjoyed Sabatello...excellent wrestler, pushes the pace, crazy persona...perhaps a 'Colby lite' in those regards...but he also has holes and a questionable desire/ability to finish, especially when facing top guys. I highly doubt he would even have sniffed an interim title shot (like he got in Bellator, thanks to its lack of depth) if he had to do work in the UFC BW division. Despite your feelings on how he matches up with O'Malley (I think that is crazy talk lol), I think Sabatello gets tooled by the top 5 and loses to most of the top 10...mmmmmaybe grinding out a couple of lay'n'pray decisions over guys who utterly fail at TDD and can't expose his mediocre striking. He's a (very) poor man's Merab...wouldn't do nearly as well, IMHO...but it would have been interesting to see. The guy isn't old...should make the jump and give it a go, given what a shit show PFL has turned into.

Jiri really walked the walk. That win was a very impressive one. It's all about winning at the end of the day. I mean, Hill was talking about how more dominant he was against Glover, then he got his ass whooped by Jiri.

Problem isn't necessarily that they don't have all, but they don't sign the best talents no more.

And it was just an example really, it's not just Paddy or whatever, I think Paddy is awesome, hopefully he finds all the success and prove everyone wrong.

Nice man, i haven't ever seen Sabatello supporter, ever lol. Sabatello isn't perfect, but no one is. Dawson can beat anybody at LW, I reckon Sabatello can as well. I think Sabatello is better head to head, but I think Dawson fights safer with more control. He wouldn't get tooled by top 5 other than flash ko. Sabatello can go five rounds, and that style is hard to deal with. Bellator BW isn't necessarily inferior to UFC's. And yes, O'Malley would be an easy fight for him.

I noticed that you said he's a very poor man's Merab. He's not. I've been a Merab supporter for a while, and I know for a fact he never got love from around here. Same with Colby. But I can appreciate good wrester/grapplers. Merab is on a run, but Sabatello is likely a tougher fight than a lot of guys Merab fought.
I know people will NOW say oh no Merab's much better. But Merab has always been good. If I said this a year or two ago, no one would've said much about it.

Sabatello was a very talented guy. He could be very well top 5, top 10 in UFC, but he ran into tougher fights than Dawson has who've been in UFC for 6+ years going 11-1-1. That was all I was trying to get at, rather than say how well he would do in the UFC. That UFC doesn't sign the best guys, cherry picks for 'their' guys, and fill the rest with tomato cans.

 

[joy2day]

The UFC roster is sooooo deep that of course the bottom tier fighters are not very good, they're either completely inexperienced or they're there to test other completely inexperienced fighters, and that's a good thing.

But at the top, I don't give many fighters in those other promotions much of a chance of coming in and dominating the entire division.

Right, the UFC needs a lot of prop fighters to fill all of those fight night cards and such. The depth is all medium to low level guys. Those guys can often be beat by fighters from other orgs. The top 2-3 fighters in each weight in the UFC are far above everyone else both in the UFC and mostly everywhere else also. There is a giant cliff in each weight class, and you hit it before the 5th ranked contender in any weight.

 

[Azure]

I want

HW: Nemkov
MW : Eblen from PFlator
WW: Musaev from PFL
LW: Akbar from OneFC, Hughes from PFL
FW : Pico from PFLator
BW: Rajbali from Rizin, he's probably BW.

​

WMMA: Sezawa from Rizin, Ditcheva from PFL

So you are saying the UFC is not a monopoly and has competition with regards to signing fighters

 

[JustOnce]

So you are saying the UFC is not a monopoly and has competition with regards to signing fighters

They just aren't signing the best for their agenda for non sporting purposes. The whole monopoly thing is sorta murky, and it's whole another argument.

 

[JustOnce]

Right, the UFC needs a lot of prop fighters to fill all of those fight night cards and such. The depth is all medium to low level guys. Those guys can often be beat by fighters from other orgs. The top 2-3 fighters in each weight in the UFC are far above everyone else both in the UFC and mostly everywhere else also. There is a giant cliff in each weight class, and you hit it before the 5th ranked contender in any weight.

It's kinda five fight rule too. I think when you go on a four fight winning streak, it kinda gets tougher around their fifth one lol. I don't have like set data or anything, but it feels that way.

And rankings are mostly a joke too. Some divisions are better than others as well. I just wish they sign the best fighters, not because someone fits what they are looking for whatever purposes.

 

[Azure]

They just aren't signing the best for their agenda for non sporting purposes. The whole monopoly thing is sorta murky, and it's whole another argument.

Not really, If they outbid everyone for talent the monopoly talk would ramp up.

 

[Elegant]

Remember when 18-1 Bellator champ with multiple title defenses Will Brooks came into the UFC and went 0-3 all by finish?

Or when 18-0 Ben Askren came to the UFC and also got brutalized 3 times by old man Lawler, Masvidal, and 50 year old Maia lol

Or how about Bellator vet/champ Michael Chandler who is now 2-4, with his wins being over the ghost of Tony, and journeyman Dan Hooker?

Lol, I get you guys want to sound like hardcore educated fans by hyping up guys outside of the UFC but it's just silly and repetitive at this point

 

[rightfight777]

UFC's sheer refusal to sign the best talents, biased match-making/tomato-can cherry picking, and influx of MMA talents from the around world seem to make this possible.

For instance, MVP's toughest fights of his career so far has been Lima and Storley. He's 1-2 against them, but in my opinion, should've been 0-3.

Look at Storley, no one really knows about the guy, but this guy is probably as good as prime Colby and no one will really remember the guy in a few years. The guy ran into absolute monsters in Amosov and Musaev, who's probably better than half the top 10 in UFC, only losses of his career. I know people hate on Colby, but he was as legit as they come.

I love Paddy, but I don't think his ceiling is that high. I remember telling people Gordon is better than Paddy, but people thought he was a tomato can. UFC signed Paddy at 26 yo, but there's a 27yo ONEfc Champ Akbar Abdullaev who is much better than Paddy will ever be.

Like, in a lightweight division, which has historically been a strong division, Grant Dawson is 11-1-1 in UFC, 23-2-1 overall. Danny Sabatello is a very similar version of the guy at BW. You don't know who the hell Danny Sabatello is? A lot of people don't, but he's fairly on par with Dawson when it comes to their skillset. I rate Sabatello higher head to head.

Dawson is nearing the title shot or top 10, but Sabatello might be retired. Sabatello only lost to Stots and Magomed, better fighters than any opponents Dawson faced in 6+ years of his UFC career.

And the list goes on. UFC just doesn't seem to sign the best guys any more. And thus have plenty tomato cans to feed to guys like they like, O'Malley for instance. Sabatello would have wiped the floor with O'Malley but thanks to UFC''s approach to O'Malley as if he's their long lost infant son, O'Malley is ranked in top 3 in the world and Sabatello is outside top 50. Most recently, they were feeding a series of tomato cans to Doo Ho Choi, I'm guessing that Korean market is still worth keeping, and it finally seems to have paid off. I think Doumbe would have knocked MVP out to the next week if MVP has stayed.

UFC has always claimed to be the premier organization in the world. Never was, and never will be.

UFC in many ways is a joke since it was sold to Endeavor an entertainment company also owning WEF. This should tell you something. The first thing they did was start to weed out the wrestlers who are dominant in fights but don't meet the unpredictable action of strikers. This in itself made the UFC a not MMA defining event imho. The second thing they did is promote fighters based on their social media followings. The third thing they did was change the rules and points to favor striking over wrestling and by the way the addition of "damage" simply makes it easier to fix winners. The final thing they did was to have refs actively involved in fights to break up clinches, take downs and even coach the fighters to start swinging. Yes the UFC has gone down and Dana is a bit of a hypocrite for letting it happen.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Yeah but it's a business that's sucky sucky for fans tho

MMA changed. This is not 2014 anymore where UFC had the best fighters in the world. The UFC looks for marketable fighters but not for the best. Even then, UFC has trouble creating stars that will hook on casuals, and hard core fans are on to the whole thing. Hard core fans are looking around in other orgs more now than they have ever done.

I am not sure that I find UFC‘s strategy sound from a business perspective in the long term.

 

[tehMoose]

Remember when 18-1 Bellator champ with multiple title defenses Will Brooks came into the UFC and went 0-3 all by finish?

Or when 18-0 Ben Askren came to the UFC and also got brutalized 3 times by old man Lawler, Masvidal, and 50 year old Maia lol

Or how about Bellator vet/champ Michael Chandler who is now 2-4, with his wins being over the ghost of Tony, and journeyman Dan Hooker?

Lol, I get you guys want to sound like hardcore educated fans by hyping up guys outside of the UFC but it's just silly and repetitive at this point

Ben Askren was a retired fighter with bad hip, Chandler like 36 years old who got murked in 1 minute by FW Patricio.

Very nice examples. How come you don't post the ones in their prime who came to the UFC and became champ (Eddie, Jiri, DDP etc)

DDP got KTFO by Soldic and immediately after signed with the UFC and went 8-0 with 6 finishes LOL

Every org who sent their top guys in their prime got the belts in the UFC (PRIDE, Strikeforce, Bellator, Rizin, WEC, KSW etc etc)

Even Bellator rejects like Buckley who got trashed by Storley 30-25 are top 5 in the UFC

 

[JustOnce]

Not really, If they outbid everyone for talent the monopoly talk would ramp up.

Fairly sure that's not why they aren't signing the best fighters

 

[JustOnce]

Remember when 18-1 Bellator champ with multiple title defenses Will Brooks came into the UFC and went 0-3 all by finish?

Or when 18-0 Ben Askren came to the UFC and also got brutalized 3 times by old man Lawler, Masvidal, and 50 year old Maia lol

Or how about Bellator vet/champ Michael Chandler who is now 2-4, with his wins being over the ghost of Tony, and journeyman Dan Hooker?

Lol, I get you guys want to sound like hardcore educated fans by hyping up guys outside of the UFC but it's just silly and repetitive at this point

Not everyone will find success. It's like saying oh so and so prospects didn't do well in ufc he sucks finding prospects. Some works, some don't. Also, let's not pretend he lost to some bums either. He fought tough three fights in a row.

Askren nor Chandler were in their primes. And especially with Masvidal, fluke kos happen. I remember telling people Maia was a toughest fight for Askren, but oh well.

I admit that Will Brooks having no success surprised me.

 

[JustOnce]

UFC in many ways is a joke since it was sold to Endeavor an entertainment company also owning WEF. This should tell you something. The first thing they did was start to weed out the wrestlers who are dominant in fights but don't meet the unpredictable action of strikers. This in itself made the UFC a not MMA defining event imho. The second thing they did is promote fighters based on their social media followings. The third thing they did was change the rules and points to favor striking over wrestling and by the way the addition of "damage" simply makes it easier to fix winners. The final thing they did was to have refs actively involved in fights to break up clinches, take downs and even coach the fighters to start swinging. Yes the UFC has gone down and Dana is a bit of a hypocrite for letting it happen.

I agree! I don't quite know about the last one though. Personally, I wish they stood them up more. I mean guys like Doo Ho Choi for example as a most recent one. The guy was piecing the other guy up, but the guy was taking all his punches. Doo Ho Choi have a questionable chin and defense, so it looked to me the guy always had a chance as long as they stood standing though he was getting lit up. But Choi just decided to take him down not knowing anything remotely related to grappling on top. I dislike fighting like that. Guys who don't know fuck all about what to do on top but just get there to save their ass. I do feel like guys who do fuck all on top with intent to stall AND pitty patter punches to look like they are doing something should get stood up more often. I don't mean grapplers.

But yeah, I'm not sure about the last one but fully agree overall. It's ridiculous, and messed up.

There was supposed to be this pipeline of elite college wrestlers a few years ago, but it never materialized. I wonder why.

 

[JustOnce]

MMA changed. This is not 2014 anymore where UFC had the best fighters in the world. The UFC looks for marketable fighters but not for the best. Even then, UFC has trouble creating stars that will hook on casuals, and hard core fans are on to the whole thing. Hard core fans are looking around in other orgs more now than they have ever done.

I am not sure that I find UFC‘s strategy sound from a business perspective in the long term.

i think UFC became so big and brand is so strong I don't think it really matters for them. I can see why. Imagine if they let Romero or Mousasi or Shields or Fitch or Bader or Corey or Phil Davis and so on hang around? It would make it harder to promote certain guys to the top.

It's fairly clear they have more in their mind putting forward exciting products than signing best guys. I don't know if they can call themselves the premier organization of MMA if that's the case. I mean, no other sporting organization would do that. But then perhaps, it's closer to WWE than anything else.

Oh well. I know people do like to reminisce, and I guess I spent way too much time on here, 20 some years man, but perhaps we really witnessed the golden age of MMA, just like there was golden age of boxing in 70's or whatever.

Also, at this point, we've seen pretty much everything anyways. It was a good run.

And for one more time, PRIDE NEVER DIE!

 

[mister piscadinha]

ufc matchmaking is HORRIBLE, which is why u have average fighters going on 5-6 wins streaks before even facing a top15 opponent, and when that happens, the guy gets bitched

like i said, fighters should always 3-5 fights alway from a ts

but rn matchmaking is all over the place, everyone is one a "winstreak" today, cause there's a lot of cans to beat outside top15