Edgar Vs Aldo (stand up) Who has the edge? Who wins?

[ssullivan80]

there an old saying at our club , counter a good puncher with your feet , and counter a good kicker with your punches

a person would be naive to think that in todays mma having a good kicking , knee , clinch game is not necessary , that just good boxing is enough im sure you would agree " sully"

to "nuke " my point was that having kicking attacks and counters as well as boxing attacks and counters opens up another part of the game ,, i dont know who "arnie " is , so i cant comment on that ,, i thought we were talking about aldo vs edgar

I agree. Good punchers can be rendered far less effective by a good kicker. But in all honesty, good kickers get beat by good punchers much more often than the otherwise. There are those select few, but they are more the exception than the rule (i.e Remy Bonjasky). Even in a sport like K1 that is far more the kickers venue, the puncher dominates most often. There is a reason the highest KO ratios are attributable to guys like Jerome LeBanner, Ray Sefo, Masato or Melvin Manhoef. Even those guys considered "great kickers" with high KO ratio's end fights with their hands far more often i.e: Aerts, Badr Hari, Crocop.

In MMA, you have a set of rules that aren't nearly as favorable to kickers as they are in K1. Not to say that being a good kicker isn't an extremely valuable asset, it absolutely is. I also agree 100% that being a good boxer isn't nearly enough, see what happened to James Toney! Still, If your looking purely at what makes an MMA fighter effective, being a good kicker is low on the list. In fact, If you were going to attribute any 1 single attribute to being dominant in MMA wrestling would win by a landslide. If I had to train a fighter to be a successful MMA competitor, a boxer/wrestler would be first choice, without a doubt. It's far easier to train that guy to defend/counter the kicker than it is to train the kicker/clinch fighter to defend the takedown and boxing in the pocket.

 

[ssullivan80]

but the level of striking in MMA, while steadily improving, is not at that level yet considering there are still sloppy strikers that can still hang and bang with other people in the highest level of MMA that is the UFC.

Just an FYI, there are sloppy punchers that can still hang and bang with top level boxers as well. Just like there are sloppy kick-boxers that can do the same at the top level. "Sloppy" is a loosely defined term when it comes to many a fighter. Many boxing technicians would call Marcos Maidana "sloppy", but trust this, he'll whoop that ass really quick. Same could be said about Badr Hari, who's style is often far from technical and does get pretty sloppy....... but still, he will fuck you up, regardless of how "poor" the technique.

 

[peanut66]

I agree. Good punchers can be rendered far less effective by a good kicker. But in all honesty, good kickers get beat by good punchers much more often than the otherwise. There are those select few, but they are more the exception than the rule (i.e Remy Bonjasky). Even in a sport like K1 that is far more the kickers venue, the puncher dominates most often. There is a reason the highest KO ratios are attributable to guys like Jerome LeBanner, Ray Sefo, Masato or Melvin Manhoef. Even those guys considered "great kickers" with high KO ratio's end fights with their hands far more often i.e: Aerts, Badr Hari, Crocop.

In MMA, you have a set of rules that aren't nearly as favorable to kickers as they are in K1. Not to say that being a good kicker isn't an extremely valuable asset, it absolutely is. I also agree 100% that being a good boxer isn't nearly enough, see what happened to James Toney! Still, If your looking purely at what makes an MMA fighter effective, being a good kicker is low on the list. In fact, If you were going to attribute any 1 single attribute to being dominant in MMA wrestling would win by a landslide. If I had to train a fighter to be a successful MMA competitor, a boxer/wrestler would be me first choice. It's far easier to train that guy to defend/counter the kicker than it is to train the kicker/clinch fighter to defend the takedown and boxing in the pocket.

so if your first choice would be a boxer / wrestler , you must be rooting for frankie edgar , oh wait , you picked aldo ..... see what i did there lol

its much easier to punch someone in the face than to kick someone in the face , that is why there is more punching kos , the legs are much stronger then the arms , and a good leg kicking game in mma is very valuable , body and legs are fine , you dont even need a high section game , but when you start chopping a boxers legs , the game changes .

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Just an FYI, there are sloppy punchers that can still hang and bang with top level boxers as well. Just like there are sloppy kick-boxers that can do the same at the top level. "Sloppy" is a loosely defined term when it comes to many a fighter. Many boxing technicians would call Marcos Maidana "sloppy", but trust this, he'll whoop that ass really quick. Same could be said about Badr Hari, who's style is often far from technical and does get pretty sloppy....... but still, he will fuck you up, regardless of how "poor" the technique.

Of course. Now if they are effective at what they are doing, then that's fine by me because they can use other things such as strength or size or aggression to offset their technical definiciencies. But it is really preferable?

 

[ssullivan80]

so if your first choice would be a boxer / wrestler , you must be rooting for frankie edgar , oh wait , you picked aldo ..... see what i did there lol

its much easier to punch someone in the face than to kick someone in the face , that is why there is more punching kos , the legs are much stronger then the arms , and a good leg kicking game in mma is very valuable , body and legs are fine , you dont even need a high section game , but when you start chopping a boxers legs , the game changes .

Absolutely, If I had to train a "green" fighter to be successful in MMA it'd be a boxer wrestler. They are the most consistently successful fighters in MMA. Guys like Aldo, Anderson, Jon Jones, Machida, they aren't the rule...... they are the exception.

I choose Aldo because I don't think Frankies wrestling is good enough to beat Aldo's striking, because Aldo's TD defense is superior to Edgars striking defense. I don't see Frankie as being a better boxer than Aldo either, in fact quite the opposite. Frankie's not difficult to hit, his boxing defense is nowhere near that of Aldo's. Aldo is difficult to hit in the pocket and is a good counter striker. So in short, Aldo's only disadvantage may be on his back (and he is a BJJ BB)....... how much time has he spent on his back?

 

[devante]

Am i missing something here. Is this a big joke that i dont get?

Jose Aldo is so much better at everything in the stand up, that i dont get how this can be a serious discussion.

Sure Edgar know how to strike. But the difference between the two are very very very big

Exactly you have a very good striker, against a guy who can strike good; big gap between what you can do and what you are. Frankie has been outclassing one dimensional (strike wise) guys on the feet, guys he is quicker than (hands and feet) and more mobile than. As well as being the more effective overall striker, beating up on Maynard doesn't prove anything in regards to what he can do on the feet against Aldo; getting beaten up by Henderson does prove what is gonna happen. Cuz Aldo is a faster more explosive and tech striker with comparable if not better rd def; an he def has better boxing and kicks and knees. So Edgar will face the exact same issues..only different being Ben is a better off wrestler, but his off wrestling played no part in either fight. So hat is wiped out.

Edgar is hard to fight cause he is quick moves around alot doesn't wear down and moves away from guys; nothing he does off or def is particularly good. Esp def where his movement is what saves him more than any real tech ability..imo.

 

[Bay Area]

nothing he does off or def is particularly good

I agree with defense, but not offense. His offense and angle usage is some of the best in the game. Look how many times he was catching BJ

 

[devante]

I agree with defense, but not offense. His offense and angle usage is some of the best in the game. Look how many times he was catching BJ

Very true...I am not saying it's bad per se; but I think Aldo has better hands, and his perceived area of strength I.e. boxing isnt as stellar as it is made out to be. He has good hands, but his most effective weapon is his footwork; more importantly his constant movement. His particular approach to footwork makes him dangerous, his jabs hooks crosses uppercuts aren't so damaging powerwise or speed wise or even tech; his setup is what makes him.

I think Aldo is quick enough to stay with him...and explosive enough to catch up if when Edgar gets him out of position; this isnt to even consider that Aldo has very good footwork...circling...backing up and moving forward. He isnt like some of these other guys who have limited mobility because of stance or are just not very mobile naturally; I don't think Frankie will consistently get as many openings and I think the windows are smaller because of aldos array of weapons his tech and athleticism.

So then it comes down to who can do more...an to me Aldo is the better off/def kicker and puncher; an he is more effective at more ranges, inside..out..middle. mark hominick has better hands than Edgar, an Aldo ate him up. Mark isnt as busy or mobile...but tech he is better and physically he takes a better shot and hits harder.

 

[ssullivan80]

I agree with defense, but not offense. His offense and angle usage is some of the best in the game. Look how many times he was catching BJ

I don't know if that's necessarily true. I think BJ was really just an ideal opponent for Frankie's style and just couldn't adapt. If anything, i'd say Frankie is one of the best fighters at pressing the pace, and that is his real strength. He's really not overwhelmingly good at any one thing, other than he is a tough, scrappy guy that can fight at a pace that his opponents have difficulty maintaining or adjusting too. I see Frankie Edgar much like I see Clay Guida in terms of the kind of opponent they are. Ultimately, they win because their toughness and work rate overwhelms their opponents.

 

[ssullivan80]

Very true...I am not saying it's bad per se; but I think Aldo has better hands, and his perceived area of strength I.e. boxing isnt as stellar as it is made out to be. He has good hands, but his most effective weapon is his footwork; more importantly his constant movement. His particular approach to footwork makes him dangerous, his jabs hooks crosses uppercuts aren't so damaging powerwise or speed wise or even tech; his setup is what makes him.

I think Aldo is quick enough to stay with him...and explosive enough to catch up if when Edgar gets him out of position; this isnt to even consider that Aldo has very good footwork...circling...backing up and moving forward. He isnt like some of these other guys who have limited mobility because of stance or are just not very mobile naturally; I don't think Frankie will consistently get as many openings and I think the windows are smaller because of aldos array of weapons his tech and athleticism.

So then it comes down to who can do more...an to me Aldo is the better off/def kicker and puncher; an he is more effective at more ranges, inside..out..middle. mark hominick has better hands than Edgar, an Aldo ate him up. Mark isnt as busy or mobile...but tech he is better and physically he takes a better shot and hits harder.

Aldo is quicker IMO (as quick at least) on his feet than Bendo and a far more explosive striker. People keep eluding to Frankie's ability to "find angles". From what I saw in his fight against Bendo, his ability to find those angles, get in-out wasn't enough that it deterred Bendo from firing in and jabbing his lead leg/thigh repeatedly....... If Bendo was able to get him timed and dialed in enough that he could consistently fire in and jab his lead then get back out before Edgar could even begin to mount any sort of attack. Well, let's be honest, imagine the openings Aldo is going to find when he fires in......... ugh....... gonna be a rough night for Frankie. Strangely enough, the biggest threat I see to Aldo in this fight is that he is fighting in his backyard in Brazil and the pressure from the crowd, combined with the pressure from the UFC to make this an impressive showing for him could make him overly aggressive/reckless...... I could see that leading to him getting caught early or gassing in the later rounds, when Frankie is the most dangerous. In short, the biggest disadvantage for Aldo, could be what most consider as his advantage.

 

[aries]

Aldo's not nearly as physically dominating of a wrestler as Benson, nor as physically strong. But I'd be confident in saying he is a far more powerful and explosive striker than Benson. Aldo isn't going to try to out-wrestle Frankie, that's not the problem Frankie faces in this fight. Frankie may want to make it a wrestling match, particularly after spending some time on his feet with Aldo. But Aldo is very tough to take down and even if you get him down he's no "easy fight" on the mat. Aldo's TD defense is far superior to Edgar's striking defense, Aldo will be a "problem" for Frankie and the most difficult opponent he's faced. Stylistically, this is a far better match-up for Aldo.

Aldo has never faced a TD artist like Frankie though. BJ was considered to have amazing TD defence too but Frankie has such excellent timing in combination with his striking that he was taking him down more than anyone not named GSP. I think this will be the key to winning the fight. Can Aldo defend or will Edgar be able to take him down. Edgar couldn't take Benson down but then Benson was strong and big as well as being a good wrestler but the most important difference is Benson has a gas tank that matches Edgars. Aldo won't be able to match Edgar here and will eventually tire and then we'll see Edgar take him down.

Aldo does have great striking but Edgar has survived against harder hitters than Aldo. Benson although not as powerful as Aldo is no slouch when it comes to kicking and Maynard definitely punches harder than Aldo. I expect Edgar to have really worked on his kick defence after what happened against Benson especially since Aldo is one of if not the most dangerous low kickers in MMA at the moment. If Edgar can avoid the kicks and get close enough to lay the grind on I think he'll pull an upset and win a decision after 5 gruelling rounds.

 

[TheWaxMurderer]

Aldo has the edge

 

[ssullivan80]

Aldo has never faced a TD artist like Frankie though. BJ was considered to have amazing TD defence too but Frankie has such excellent timing in combination with his striking that he was taking him down more than anyone not named GSP. I think this will be the key to winning the fight. Can Aldo defend or will Edgar be able to take him down. Edgar couldn't take Benson down but then Benson was strong and big as well as being a good wrestler but the most important difference is Benson has a gas tank that matches Edgars. Aldo won't be able to match Edgar here and will eventually tire and then we'll see Edgar take him down.

Aldo does have great striking but Edgar has survived against harder hitters than Aldo. Benson although not as powerful as Aldo is no slouch when it comes to kicking and Maynard definitely punches harder than Aldo. I expect Edgar to have really worked on his kick defence after what happened against Benson especially since Aldo is one of if not the most dangerous low kickers in MMA at the moment. If Edgar can avoid the kicks and get close enough to lay the grind on I think he'll pull an upset and win a decision after 5 gruelling rounds.

IMO, Uriah Faber is a better TD artist than Edgar. He's got one of the quickest and most explosive shots in MMA (aside from GSP, no ones got a quicker "shot"). Aldo was able to avoid Uriah's TD's pretty well, and Frankie is neither bigger nor faster than Faber. As for "harder hitters", I don't think Maynard necessarily hits harder than Aldo and isn't nearly as explosive of a striker. Edgar's defense against Maynard was by no means good, and whether or not Maynard hits harder.......... well, Aldo will hit Edgar more often, with cleaner shots and in combination far more consistently than Maynard if Edgar's defense is reminiscent of that fight.

The difference in Frankie's ability to take down BJ vs. Aldo isn't comparable. Bj defends TD's exceptionally well, but his style of fighting welcomes TD attempts far more. BJ fights in the pocket, he's not in-out fast footed fighter who utilizes all the ring and distancing to initiate his attacks. Aldo and Henderson are very different in this respect, they both initiate their offensive attacks from a much greater distance than does BJ (who's primarily a counterstriker). They don't stalk, they fire in and attack aggressively, then get back out.

Edgars, ability to put together combinations and use that darting in-out style is far better utilized on guy's like Maynard and Bj that fight a more stationary and less mobile fight. Against Henderson, Edgar wasn't able to string together those combinations and build them into his takedows because Ben is quick footed, more mobile and fights at a much different distance. This forced Edgar into going for takedowns at a greater distance, without the set-ups, and his striking was reduced to 1-2 shot combos while charging forward. Let's remember what happens when Aldo's opponents have attempted this exact same approach......... goodnight!

I do however agree that Edgar's chances of winning the fight will improve significantly in the later rounds, if he gets there and without taking too much damage early.

 

[combatverm**]

Frankie Edgar, Aldo is sloppy and relies on his speed to beat his opponent to the strike and his power to do the rest.


Against someone technically sound like Edgar who will counter ever sloppy strike and never let you make a mistake we will Aldo finnaly put to the test. I have good faith that Frankie Edgar will win and prove that the MMA universe still has some form of balance in it.

someone else mentioned this also but Edgar is going to pull a Cain and dominate for 5 rounds via Jersey heart and determination. unless of course, he gets ktfo.

 

[aries]

IMO, Uriah Faber is a better TD artist than Edgar. He's got one of the quickest and most explosive shots in MMA (aside from GSP, no ones got a quicker "shot"). Aldo was able to avoid Uriah's TD's pretty well, and Frankie is neither bigger nor faster than Faber. As for "harder hitters", I don't think Maynard necessarily hits harder than Aldo and isn't nearly as explosive of a striker. Edgar's defense against Maynard was by no means good, and whether or not Maynard hits harder.......... well, Aldo will hit Edgar more often, with cleaner shots and in combination far more consistently than Maynard if Edgar's defense is reminiscent of that fight.

The difference in Frankie's ability to take down BJ vs. Aldo isn't comparable. Bj defends TD's exceptionally well, but his style of fighting welcomes TD attempts far more. BJ fights in the pocket, he's not in-out fast footed fighter who utilizes all the ring and distancing to initiate his attacks. Aldo and Henderson are very different in this respect, they both initiate their offensive attacks from a much greater distance than does BJ (who's primarily a counterstriker). They don't stalk, they fire in and attack aggressively, then get back out.

Edgars, ability to put together combinations and use that darting in-out style is far better utilized on guy's like Maynard and Bj that fight a more stationary and less mobile fight. Against Henderson, Edgar wasn't able to string together those combinations and build them into his takedows because Ben is quick footed, more mobile and fights at a much different distance. This forced Edgar into going for takedowns at a greater distance, without the set-ups, and his striking was reduced to 1-2 shot combos while charging forward. Let's remember what happens when Aldo's opponents have attempted this exact same approach......... goodnight!

I do however agree that Edgar's chances of winning the fight will improve significantly in the later rounds, if he gets there and without taking too much damage early.

I disagree with that. I really think that Edgar has the edge in TD's over Faber. He's bigger and stronger and has better timing which is the key against guys with good TDD. But I do concede that Aldo and Bendo are much more mobile than a BJ which makes taking them down a different proposition altogether.

Frankie has one of the best chins in the business though. If Maynard couldn't take out Edgar I don't see Aldo stopping him with a KO shot or combo. And if Aldo tries to unload more than a couple of shots before getting out of there Frankie I believe will clinch and shove him to the fence. I really think the Bendo loss will have Frankie training the perfect strategy for fighting a guy like Aldo and he'll utilise his wrestling, superior conditioning and strength advantage to grind out Aldo. As long as he doesn't lose all of the first 3 rounds. In fact I predict the 3rd round winner will determine the overall winner imho.

 

[ssullivan80]

I disagree with that. I really think that Edgar has the edge in TD's over Faber. He's bigger and stronger and has better timing which is the key against guys with good TDD. But I do concede that Aldo and Bendo are much more mobile than a BJ which makes taking them down a different proposition altogether.

Frankie has one of the best chins in the business though. If Maynard couldn't take out Edgar I don't see Aldo stopping him with a KO shot or combo. And if Aldo tries to unload more than a couple of shots before getting out of there Frankie I believe will clinch and shove him to the fence. I really think the Bendo loss will have Frankie training the perfect strategy for fighting a guy like Aldo and he'll utilise his wrestling, superior conditioning and strength advantage to grind out Aldo. As long as he doesn't lose all of the first 3 rounds. In fact I predict the 3rd round winner will determine the overall winner imho.

Well said, you make good points. We will just have to see. IMO, I never count Frankie out of a fight. He's as tough and scrappy as they come. Still, I see this fight stylistically, heavily favoring Aldo.

You make a good point though, The Bendo fight definitely will be an "eye-opnener" for Frankie and was probably the ideal fight to have in order to make the kind of adjustments he'll need to get in the ring with Aldo.

I think that your 3rd round winner prediction makes a whole lot of sense. That said, If this fight really is decided in the later rounds I see it as a much greater advantage for Edgar than Aldo.

My honest prediction, Aldo will finish this fight inside of 3rds.

 

[ssullivan80]

On a separate note: when addressing the differences in going up or down in weight classes there is always the debate over the speed, pace, power differences in moving in between weight classes. In my opinion and from my observations those differences become more and more exaggerated at the lower weight classes (170 and under) than the otherwise. In fact, i think that the single toughest transition to make in between weight classes (in terms of speed, power, pace) is from 155 down to 145. The difference in the fighters speed and pace at 145 is fairly significant and I don't see the power advantage being much different (vs. 205 to 185, power difference is much more pronounced).

Frankie is definitely a small 155, but on the other hand, Aldo is actually an enormous 145. The comparison in size between Aldo and Maynard keeps coming up. In truth, Aldo isn't much smaller than Maynard, if any smaller. See clip........

 

[richmFTW]

Aldo via UD IMO

 

[devante]

I disagree with that. I really think that Edgar has the edge in TD's over Faber. He's bigger and stronger and has better timing which is the key against guys with good TDD. But I do concede that Aldo and Bendo are much more mobile than a BJ which makes taking them down a different proposition altogether.

Frankie has one of the best chins in the business though. If Maynard couldn't take out Edgar I don't see Aldo stopping him with a KO shot or combo. And if Aldo tries to unload more than a couple of shots before getting out of there Frankie I believe will clinch and shove him to the fence. I really think the Bendo loss will have Frankie training the perfect strategy for fighting a guy like Aldo and he'll utilise his wrestling, superior conditioning and strength advantage to grind out Aldo. As long as he doesn't lose all of the first 3 rounds. In fact I predict the 3rd round winner will determine the overall winner imho.

maynard may hit hard, but he is one dimensional in his striking, in that he can only really be effective w/punches, secondly he is purely and offensive guy; a guy who moves or has balanced striking will cause him alot of problems. I think if maynard was more polished, balanced he could have in fact finished edgar; but he isn't and that was the difference. Maynard can do two things, punch you and take you down, worse yet he can only do one at a time...then punch you; when either two of those becomes difficult, he fades..resorts to single strikes and more or less turns into a heavybag. His nickname is the bully and if he can't bully you..impose his will or PUSH you back; he becomes incredibly ineffective.

aldo doesn't have that prob, he can def kicks and punches, he can cut off the cage, he can fight going forward or back or standing his ground, he can throw clean combos, clean counters. He can utilize effective footwork and he can kick punch knee and elbow off of missed strikes and or takedowns. Maynard couldn't do anyone of those things, more importantly his footwork caused him to chase all night and his limited off/def led to him getting beaten up and taken down as a result of it.

as sullivan said it's the range and rhythm that will impact how frankie fights and how effective what he does is, he isn't facing a guy who can't def strikes so he leaves a takedown wide open. He isn't facing a guy who can't def takedowns she he leaves lanes for strikes wide open; the same openings edgar is used to facing WON'T be there w/aldo, even in the instances he can outposition him or get him where he wants two things come into play A)aldo's tech positioning footwork and striking will allow him to recover or make something positive out of it..B)aldos explosiveness alows him to make mistakes because he can skip three steps to get back into the right position or follow up w/an attack.

sherk-franca-maynard-veach-penn-bocek-fisher-griffin, are all the best guys he faced; most of them have mediocre to at best avg striking, those are the guys he has been outstriking/outboxing. The same guys everyone outboxes and outstrikes.. penn is the exception; but his style/stance/approach, made seved him up for a beating, not to mention he..like most guys on this list are one dimensional strikers.

The only guys who had more to offer were fisher/henderson, edgar didn't even attempt to spend any real time on the feet w/fisher; which is smart, but w/every other guy he fought he exchanged...tested it out. But fisher even late was still dynamic, had good hands and all round striking; he hung w/pearson-stout-alves-siver on the feet. And against henderson..a guy w/balanced striking, as well as wrestling ability he got lit up; repeatedly kept at a range he wasn't comfortable with, wasn't able to consistently land those flurries/combos he always did, got countered and got caught coming in and out.

your point stands hendo has that wrestling and that size, but aldo is a big dude; big for fw and pretty big for lw, aldo should have been at 55 and edgar should have been at 45. So i feel he will enjoy size strength adv, as well as explosiveness and power; if frankie can get him into late rounds he can wear him down, but frankies gonna have to take alot more punishment that he has had to previously to accomplish this.

also urijah faber is a similar look to edgar; not as good a boxer, but a much better wrestler..stronger..more explosive and able to control guys on the ground, frankie has better hands..cleaner footwork..positioning. But he doesnt have fabers power or burst...imo.

edgar is a smarter fighter than faber is...but i don't think he brings anything to the table that urijah doesn't physically...urijah was fast at 55-45-35, we have only seen edgar be faster against guys not known for their speed..faber has been fast against guys known for theirs..wineland-cruz-to name a few.

 

[devante]

On a separate note: when addressing the differences in going up or down in weight classes there is always the debate over the speed, pace, power differences in moving in between weight classes. In my opinion and from my observations those differences become more and more exaggerated at the lower weight classes (170 and under) than the otherwise. In fact, i think that the single toughest transition to make in between weight classes (in terms of speed, power, pace) is from 155 down to 145. The difference in the fighters speed and pace at 145 is fairly significant and I don't see the power advantage being much different (vs. 205 to 185, power difference is much more pronounced).

Frankie is definitely a small 155, but on the other hand, Aldo is actually an enormous 145. The comparison in size between Aldo and Maynard keeps coming up. In truth, Aldo isn't much smaller than Maynard, if any smaller. See clip........

the diff in weight classes is noticeable..as you said.. faber was one of the fastest at 55/45, which covered alot of tech flaws; at 35 while he is one of the faster guys, his speed isn't far and away better than the guys he has been facing. Not like it was in his higher div; i see a similar thing happening w/edgar.