Television ECHO (Official Trailer, post #52; Premieres Jan. 10)

If the actress wasn't Native American, deaf and an amputee, the series probably wouldn't have been made. In the comics, Echo is a B-lister at best. We're not talking about the kind of fan base that Spider-Man, Daredevil or Punisher have. Hell, the Kingpin probably has more fans than Echo.

That said, I didn't have a problem with the show being Woke. I had a problem with it being poorly written, paced and acted(with the obvious exception of D'Onofrio of course).

I agree with the poorly written and paced and she's a B-lister, but do not agree it was woke.

If you're saying the very existence of this series is due to wokeness, I disagree. Because Disney NEEDS content badly (and a lot of it too) due to their streaming service. This series is just a filler and supplement to the main Daredevil and Hawkeye series.

The first episode is almost a rehash of a Hawkeye episode they already had. Not saying Disney doesn't push woke, because it's obvious they do, but not in this case IMO.
 
I agree with the poorly written and paced and she's a B-lister, but do not agree it was woke.

If you're saying the very existence of this series is due to wokeness, I disagree. Because Disney NEEDS content badly (and a lot of it too) due to their streaming service. This series is just a filler and supplement to the main Daredevil and Hawkeye series.

The first episode is almost a rehash of a Hawkeye episode they already had. Not saying Disney doesn't push woke, because it's obvious they do, but not in this case IMO.

I believe this is the only original MCU content Disney are releasing this year. Frankly, they would have been better off not bothering to release it at all and just taking the whole of 2024 off. The only thing the show achieved was to be not as bad as Secret Invasion or She Hulk. It was a waste of D'Onofrio's considerable talents and did not really move the overarching story of the, "Street Phase" forward in any way.

We can agree to differ regarding the woke aspect, but it was definitely another misfire from Disney/Marvel.
 
Yeah, I was being generous.

To be clear, Guardians Of The Galaxy weren't even hugely popular in the 80s, and they were long cancelled to the point most haven't even heard of them in the 90s & 2000s... yet they became one of the most popular MCU franchises.

Pointing out Echo is a D-lister in the comics isn't a criticism, its an analysis of popularity within that medium.

If Echo's adaptation into a Disney+ series was handled well, without an emphasis to check diversity & inclusion boxes, it had the potential to be a 'Guardians Of The Galaxy' like hit.
 
To be clear, Guardians Of The Galaxy weren't even hugely popular in the 80s, and they were long cancelled to the point most haven't even heard of them in the 90s & 2000s... yet they became one of the most popular MCU franchises.

Pointing out Echo is a D-lister in the comics isn't a criticism, its an analysis of popularity within that medium.

If Echo's adaptation into a Disney+ series was handled well, without an emphasis to check diversity & inclusion boxes, it had the potential to be a 'Guardians Of The Galaxy' like hit.

People underestimate good writing. Yeah great acting, directing, and cinematography can carry a scene with no lines but if you have great dialogue and mediocre actors you can do a ton.

The Guardians films, Suicide Squad version 2, and Peacemaker had strong writing that mixed humor (which is mandatory given the absurdity of the subject matter) into the narrative.

Yeah it was all Gunn, but it's not like there aren't plenty of great writers out there.
 
People underestimate good writing. Yeah great acting, directing, and cinematography can carry a scene with no lines but if you have great dialogue and mediocre actors you can do a ton.

No, entertainment execs & producers underestimate good writing.

I suspect its because a number of franchises, like Fast&Furious, became international hits even with its godawful scripts and I bet among the execs & producers there was an intention to dumb-down the plots & character development for it to be more appealing to... the sub-80 IQ audiences.

That's one of the reasons why Hollywood has over invested in CGI budgets over the last 24 years, rather than invest in scriptwriting. Better to make your movies and TV shows have flashy action sequences than have a cast of characters have intelligence levels above elementary schoolers.


The Guardians films, Suicide Squad version 2, and Peacemaker had strong writing that mixed humor (which is mandatory given the absurdity of the subject matter) into the narrative.

Yeah it was all Gunn, but it's not like there aren't plenty of great writers out there.

Gunn is one of the few great directors that is also a great writer, his directing perfectly compliments his writing, and vice-versa.

Too many directors are shit at writing, and that's another subject.
 
I believe this is the only original MCU content Disney are releasing this year. Frankly, they would have been better off not bothering to release it at all and just taking the whole of 2024 off. The only thing the show achieved was to be not as bad as Secret Invasion or She Hulk. It was a waste of D'Onofrio's considerable talents and did not really move the overarching story of the, "Street Phase" forward in any way.

We can agree to differ regarding the woke aspect, but it was definitely another misfire from Disney/Marvel.
You know, something they could have done to help the plot -both here and in Hawkeye- would be to explain why Kingpin is running his crime through a tribal community. It actually makes a ton of sense. Reservations can and often are hotbeds of really extreme organized crime, particularly if there is gaming money involved in some capacity. We call it the "Indian Mafia" in my neck of the woods. That way the whole thing wouldn't have felt so freakin random, which I imagine dragged it down quite a bit. It's like oh what, Kingpin has a random Native "niece".... come again? To me, as a Native guy, there is a very clear and logical connection between Fisk as the operator of a criminal empire and the organized crime elements at play in tribal communities, but they never actually explain it. It think that's part of the reason why people keep saying this is "woke"': where is the actual reason that this New York crime lord and this Native lady are connected? Right? With no explanation, things feel shoe horned in, even though the character actually is a deaf Native lady and that's just how it is.
 
You know, something they could have done to help the plot -both here and in Hawkeye- would be to explain why Kingpin is running his crime through a tribal community. It actually makes a ton of sense. Reservations can and often are hotbeds of really extreme organized crime, particularly if there is gaming money involved in some capacity. We call it the "Indian Mafia" in my neck of the woods. That way the whole thing wouldn't have felt so freakin random, which I imagine dragged it down quite a bit. It's like oh what, Kingpin has a random Native "niece".... come again? To me, as a Native guy, there is a very clear and logical connection between Fisk as the operator of a criminal empire and the organized crime elements at play in tribal communities, but they never actually explain it. It think that's part of the reason why people keep saying this is "woke"': where is the actual reason that this New York crime lord and this Native lady are connected? Right? With no explanation, things feel shoe horned in, even though the character actually is a deaf Native lady and that's just how it is.

Interesting points. Although, IMHO, the whole relationship with Echo feels shoe-horned in and it would be difficult to write a coherent narrative. But I'll give it a shot. ;)

In three seasons of Netflix DD, Fisk is shown to love exactly two people: his wife Vanessa and Wesley, whom he regards as a son. Yet in Hawkeye we're supposed to believe he had a surrogate daughter in Maya. A young girl he loved so much he was willing to forgive her shooting him in the eye and nearly killing him.

It would have been much simpler and more efficient if Fisk had no real feelings for Maya at all, and simply manipulated her need for a father figure into becoming his personal assassin. Exactly like he did with Dex/Bullseye. And while we're on the subject, I face-palmed at the scene where Fisk tells Maya she was the only one of his people to give Daredevil a good fight. Bitch, please: Bullseye kicked Daredevil's ass. And their fight scenes were orders of magnitude better than anything in this show.:rolleyes:

We then could have had a series in which Maya comes to terms with all the horrible crimes she committed, as well as seeking revenge not only for the death of her father, but for being turned into a murderer herself. She could have been written as showing real guilt for the people Fisk made her kill, while still being determined to kill him.

This would have made Maya a much more sympathetic character, as opposed to the selfish, unrepentant, sullen criminal she's portrayed as here. Her quest seems to be almost as much about becoming, "Queenpin" - another facepalm moment - as getting revenge on Fisk.

Although I would have preferred the show to have been set in New York, they still could have used Maya's hometown as the main location. As you pointed out, there can be serious Organised Crime on Native American lands. It would have been easy to write the show as Fisk using the place as a major distribution hub for guns, drugs etc. Maya destroys much of the criminal infrastructure of the town, forcing Fisk to come to town himself, as his goons can't deal with it. Drop hints that Fisk cannot allow his business to be threatened as he needs all his money for some unspecified purpose.

Maya - who in my version has her original Photographic Reflex Powers rather than being Captain Dances With Wolves - still faces off with Kingpin at the Pow Wow, but is brutally beaten. This reminds the fans just how dangerous Fisk can be to Street Level Heroes, and sets him up as their Big Bad.

Before he can kill Maya, they are interrupted by dozens of people from the Pow Wow. Fisk realizes he can't massacre all these civilians and cover it up, so he leaves. But not before warning Maya he will kill everyone she loves if she continues her war against him. This in turn sets up the next Phase, as Maya realises she can't bring down Fisk alone, and needs to team up with Daredevil, Spider-Man etc.

The ACS is similar the one they actually showed: the reason Fisk was so desperate to keep the money flowing is because he needs it finance his campaign for Mayor of New York.
 
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Interesting points. Although, IMHO, the whole relationship with Echo feels shoe-horned in and it would be difficult to write a coherent narrative. But I'll give it a shot. ;)

In three seasons of Netflix DD, Fisk is shown to love exactly two people: his wife Vanessa and Wesley, whom he regards as a son. Yet in Hawkeye we're supposed to believe he had a surrogate daughter in Maya. A young girl he loved so much he was willing to forgive her shooting him in the eye and nearly killing him.

Yeah, it was pretty much alternate universe-level weird.
It would have been much simpler and more efficient if Fisk had no real feelings for Maya at all, and simply manipulated her need for a father figure into becoming his personal assassin. Exactly like he did with Dex/Bullseye. And while we're on the subject, I face-palmed at the scene where Fisk tells Maya she was the only one of his people to give Daredevil a good fight. Bitch, please: Bullseye kicked Daredevil's ass. And their fight scenes were orders of magnitude better than anything in this show.:rolleyes:

We then could have had a series in which Maya comes to terms with all the horrible crimes she committed, as well as seeking revenge not only for the death of her father, but for being turned into a murderer herself. She could have been written as showing real guilt for the people Fisk made her kill, while still being determined to kill him.

Your last point here is one of my biggest issues with the show. The character is just not sympathetic at all, and if you unpack it even a bit you realize she's a total douche. But they are writing her almost like... a good guy? It's fucking weird. They really really messed up or missed out by not having her reconcile literally any -any- of the horrible things she has obviously done.
This would have made Maya a much more sympathetic character, as opposed to the selfish, unrepentant, sullen criminal she's portrayed as here. Her quest seems to be almost as much about becoming, "Queenpin" - another facepalm moment - as getting revenge on Fisk.

Although I would have preferred the show to have been set in New York, they still could have used Maya's hometown as the main location. As you pointed out, there can serious Organised Crime on Native American lands. It would have been easy to write the show as Fisk using the place as a major distribution hub for guns, drugs etc. Maya destroys much of the criminal infrastructure of the town, forcing Fisk to come to town himself, as his goons can't deal with it. Drop hints that Fisk cannot allow his business to be threatened as he needs all his money for some unspecified purpose.

And further to that, if Fisk is going to be running crime on or through a rez, he would need tribal surrogates or partners- and more than just that one dude. It would be a part of the tribal political apparatus. Is she trying to take things for herself by killing or controlling the tribal crime elements? Is she trying to rid her community of his presence? I mean come on. These are easy layups if they just write them the fuck in.
Maya - who in my version has her original Photographic Reflex Powers rather than being Captain Dances With Wolves - still faces off with Kingpin at the Pow Wow, but is brutally beaten. This reminds the fans just how dangerous Fisk can be to Street Level Heroes, and sets him up as their Big Bad.

Before he can kill Maya, they are interrupted by dozens of people from the Pow Wow. Fisk realizes he can't massacre all these civilians, and leaves. But not before warning Maya he will kill everyone she loves if she continues her war against him. This in turn sets up the next Phase, as Maya realises she can't bring down Fisk alone, and needs to team up with Daredevil, Spider-Man etc.

The ACS is similar the one they actually showed: the reason Fisk was so desperate to keep the money flowing is because he needs it finance his campaign for Mayor of New York.
Going into that last episode, I was really excited to see what they did with a pow wow setting. Again, those are real dancers, that is real regalia, the whole thing is very very obviously put together and put on 100% by the tribe. The production of the show obviously had to work around the tribe making that stuff happen and I honestly can't recall the last time, if ever, i've seen something quite like it in a main stream production of any media. As the episode moved along, it began to dawn on me that they might have actually written in violence breaking out at a pow wow, and I began to be completely fucking horrified lol. I was like "...nooo...no they wouldn't...." inside my head. There is no real way for me to explain or share the feeling. It would have been a massive fucking mistake. Even going so far as to have Echo beaten at a pow wow would have been culturally, historically, socially speaking a really fucking awful thing to see. Pow wows are special to us in a way i'm not convinced other American cultural groups can quite understand. So I was really, sincerely relieved. I think the final "fight" scene was probably extremely stupid to watch for most people, and there's a part of me that recognizes it was dorky and lame, but as a symbol it damn near made me cry, and i'm not kidding around. But that's kind of this show in a nutshell for me: it's mediocre in so many ways, but they made the things that count extremely valuable. I wish I could somehow share this feeling with other people. It's really good. Mediocre plot, limited acting, unlikeable character, and yet i've already rewatched various parts several times.
 
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Yeah, it was pretty much alternate universe-level weird.


Your last point here is one of my biggest issues with the show. The character is just not sympathetic at all, and if you unpack it even a bit you realize she's a total douche. But they are writing her almost like... a good guy? It's fucking weird. They really really messed up or missed out by not having her reconcile literally any -any- of the horrible things she has obviously done.


And further to that, if Fisk is going to be running crime on or through a rez, he would need tribal surrogates or partners- and more than just that one dude. It would be a part of the tribal political apparatus. Is she trying to take things for herself by killing or controlling the tribal crime elements? Is she trying to rid her community of his presence? I mean come on. These are easy layups if they just write them the fuck in.

Going into that last episode, I was really excited to see what they did with a pow wow setting. Again, those are real dancers, that is real regalia, the whole thing is very very obviously put together and put on 100% by the tribe. The production of the show obviously had to work around the tribe making that stuff happen and I honestly can't recall the last time, if ever, i've seen something quite like it in a main stream production of any media. As the episode moved along, it began to dawn on me that they might have actually written in violence breaking out at a pow wow, and I began to be completely fucking horrified lol. I was like "...nooo...no they wouldn't...." inside my head. There is no real way for me to explain or share the feeling. It would have been a massive fucking mistake. Even going so far as to have Echo beaten at a pow wow would have been culturally, historically, socially speaking a really fucking awful thing to see. Pow wows are special to us in a way i'm not convinced other American cultural groups can quite understand. So I was really, sincerely relieved. I think the final "fight" scene in was probably extremely stupid to watch for most people, and there's a part of me that recognizes it was dorky and lame, but as a symbol it damn near made me cry, and i'm not kidding around. But that's kind of this show in a nutshell for me: it's mediocre in so many ways, but they made the things that count extremely valuable. I wish I could somehow share this feeling with other people. It's really good. Mediocre plot, limited acting, unlikeable character, and yet i've already rewatched various parts several times.

Fair enough. It's your cultural heritage, so obviously it's going to mean so much more to you than it does to me. The showrunners obviously put in the work regarding that aspect. It's a pity they didn't spend the same amount of time and effort on the script, character development etc.

For me, the moment I realised I didn't give a shit about Maya is the scene where she sits having dinner with Fisk while the ASL interpreter is murdered by one of his goons. While the interpreter might have some knowledge of Fisk's crimes just by translating his and Maya's conversations, there's no suggestion she's a hardened criminal. But Maya doesn't react at all. Even when she mentions the interpreter in a later scene, it's just to bitch that Fisk hired her because he was too lazy to learn to Sign himself. That sums up her character: a sociopathic degree of self-involvement.
 
Fair enough. It's your cultural heritage, so obviously it's going to mean so much more to you than it does to me. The showrunners obviously put in the work regarding that aspect. It's a pity they didn't spend the same amount of time and effort on the script, character development etc.
Exactly. And some of it seems so obvious. The production tried really hard in certain areas, and i'm immensely grateful for it, but i'm not going to pretend it's a great show. Valuable for me, but... I mean, come on.
For me, the moment I realised I didn't give a shit about Maya is the scene where she sits having dinner with Fisk while the ASL interpreter is murdered by one of his goons. While the interpreter might have some knowledge of Fisk's crimes just by translating his and Maya's conversations, there's no suggestion she's a hardened criminal. But Maya doesn't react at all. Even when she mentions the interpreter in a later scene, it's just to bitch that Fisk hired her because he was too lazy to learn to Sign himself. That sums up her character: a sociopathic degree of self-involvement.
EXACTLY. Buddy, it's like we are connected at the mind. I actually paused the show and was like uhhhhhh.... ok, so she's just a fucking total sack of shit? I was so confused! This lady isn't coming across as a warrior, she's coming across as a fucking douche nozzle. Why the fuck write it like that? What were they even doing? Were they trying to somehow imply that she didn't know it happened because it was around the corner or some shit? That would be so stupid.
 
Exactly. And some of it seems so obvious. The production tried really hard in certain areas, and i'm immensely grateful for it, but i'm not going to pretend it's a great show. Valuable for me, but... I mean, come on.

EXACTLY. Buddy, it's like we are connected at the mind. I actually paused the show and was like uhhhhhh.... ok, so she's just a fucking total sack of shit? I was so confused! This lady isn't coming across as a warrior, she's coming across as a fucking douche nozzle. Why the fuck write it like that? What were they even doing? Were they trying to somehow imply that she didn't know it happened because it was around the corner or some shit? That would be so stupid.

It wasn't even around the corner! I just watched the scene again, and she and the goon are clearly walking in almost a straight line. Maya turns her head to watch them go, so she must have been able to see what happened. But we never see her exhibit any remorse for that or all the other terrible crimes she's either seen or committed herself.

Her uncle warns her that if her cousin, who Maya is supposed to love as a sister, learns she was in town and didn't contact her, it would break her heart. Maya's response?

"Her feelings are not my problem".

Again, this is supposed to be a woman she loves like a sister. :rolleyes:

It is possible to write stories in which almost every character is a piece of shit, but still give the audience someone to become invested in. This is especially true in crime films and shows like Godfather, Goodfellas, The Sopranos etc. But it takes a degree of skill neither the writers or the cast - with the exception of D'Onofrio himself - possessed.
 
It wasn't even around the corner! I just watched the scene again, and she and the goon are clearly walking in almost a straight line. Maya turns her head to watch them go, so she must have been able to see what happened. But we never see her exhibit any remorse for that or all the other terrible crimes she's either seen or committed herself.

Her uncle warns her that if her cousin, who Maya is supposed to love as a sister, learns she was in town and didn't contact her, it would break her heart. Maya's response?

"Her feelings are not my problem".

Again, this is supposed to be a woman she loves like a sister. :rolleyes:

It is possible to write stories in which almost every character is a piece of shit, but still give the audience someone to become invested in. This is especially true in crime films and shows like Godfather, Goodfellas, The Sopranos etc. But it takes a degree of skill neither the writers or the cast - with the exception of D'Onofrio himself - possessed.
Oh I'm right there with ya lol
I can't figure out why anyone is even giving her the time of day
 
No, entertainment execs & producers underestimate good writing.

I suspect its because a number of franchises, like Fast&Furious, became international hits even with its godawful scripts and I bet among the execs & producers there was an intention to dumb-down the plots & character development for it to be more appealing to... the sub-80 IQ audiences.

That's one of the reasons why Hollywood has over invested in CGI budgets over the last 24 years, rather than invest in scriptwriting. Better to make your movies and TV shows have flashy action sequences than have a cast of characters have intelligence levels above elementary schoolers.




Gunn is one of the few great directors that is also a great writer, his directing perfectly compliments his writing, and vice-versa.

Too many directors are shit at writing, and that's another subject.

*cough* Snyder says what?
 
Well, they didn't cast a uncharismatic blind amputee guy to play Daredevil. The woke problem was not the character but the casting.
Casting a deaf Native lady to play a deaf Native lady isn't woke lol
 
*cough* Snyder says what?

Yep, I actually mentioned him directly in a rant in the thread about his recent Netflix movie, how he's the #1 examples of director being great at directing.... but piss-poor script writers.

Snyder & Rian Johnson are worst examples of that curse within Hollywood.
 
Casting a deaf Native lady to play a deaf Native lady isn't woke lol

They could have cast a Native American actress in great shape, with the talent to play the role as a charismatic and interesting character. And then taught her ASL. There must be a large enough talent pool of First Nation actresses to find someone better than they did.

And IIRC, Echo is not an amputee in the comics, so it didn't have to be a factor in casting the actress.
 
They could have cast a Native American actress in great shape, with the talent to play the role as a charismatic and interesting character. And then taught her ASL. There must be a large enough talent pool of First Nation actresses to find someone better than they did.

And IIRC, Echo is not an amputee in the comics, so it didn't have to be a factor in casting the actress.
They could have done a lot of things. I mean, they could have not cast a deaf actress at all. But it's not inappropriate to do so. Her ability as an actress is a separate complaint; she ain't great. Then again, it's her first role ever as an actress, so maybe next time around they focus on getting someone with experience. Then again again, she's still better than the jagoff they had playing Iron Fist, so everything is relative.
 
They could have done a lot of things. I mean, they could have not cast a deaf actress at all. But it's not inappropriate to do so. Her ability as an actress is a separate complaint; she ain't great. Then again, it's her first role ever as an actress, so maybe next time around they focus on getting someone with experience. Then again again, she's still better than the jagoff they had playing Iron Fist, so everything is relative.

Apparently the actor they had playing Iron Fist refused to train in martial arts for the role, which is why the fight scenes were trash. There's only so much you can do with a stuntman.

A non-deaf Native American actress who could play the character as something other than a blubbery, selfish piece of shit would have been a major improvement on what we got. Although the writing for the entire show was so bad, it still would have been a failure.

When Vincent Goddamn D'Onofrio himself can't rescue your show, you know you done fucked up.
 
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