Dominick Cruz striking background...

there was nothing unconventional about kell brook or johnny nelson. watch these fighters fight before you speak on them. herol graham was slightly unconventional for sure, and he lost to every good conventional boxer he fought. fundamentals matter dude.


paul ingle is only the embodiment of mediocre 90’s featherweights.

What about Junior Witter?

Your saying he wasn't unconventional?

I will agree with you on Kell Brook since I got him confused with another person but Johnny Nelson I disagree with. He fought with lead hands down. This is a big no no in boxing. I am talking about style. If conventional boxing is so hot shit then Paul should have been extremely successful since he did everything a conventional boxing consist of. Boxing purist want to shit on everyone who is not conventional. Hence my post.
 
What about Junior Witter?

Your saying he wasn't unconventional?
i’ll admit i haven’t seen a ton of junior’s fights. maybe only a few highlights. don’t wanna speak on something i haven’t seen.

I will agree with you on Kell Brook since I got him confused with another person but Johnny Nelson I disagree with. He fought with lead hands down. This is a big no no in boxing. I am talking about style.
johnny nelson would drop his hands and showboat when his fights were getting boring, but he stayed behind his jab and used correct balances footwork. naseem didn’t do anything like that. johnny nelson was closer to a tyson fury than someone incredibly unconventional like chris eubank.
If conventional boxing is so hot shit then Paul should have been extremely successful since he did everything a conventional boxing consist of. Boxing purist want to shit on everyone who is not conventional. Hence my post.
well, there are more things that go into being a great fighter than fundamentals but the vast majority of great fighters have great fundamentals. of course athleticism & reflexes CAN trump that stuff. naseem had a great career. ran through a weak early 90’s 126-pound division but he won all of those fights. he’s a hall of famer. compare him to a similar sized fighter from the same era in erik morales who had a much better (and longer) career. erik had footwork, a jab, and a piston-like right hand that came from his chin. his fundamentals led to a better career.

typically, the most dominant fighters are a combination of great athleticism & solid fundamentals. the most unstoppable fighter who has ever existed is roy jones jr. he did a lot of shit wrong. i think his fundamentals & balance are underrated but he utilized his physical gifts more often than not. naseem isn’t anywhere near roy’s level though.
 
More of a strategy than a style. Moving objects are harder to hit. By staying constantly mobile he avoids a good deal of damage. And his awkward rhythm disrupts his opponents.

I’ve never really been a fan. It’s too much of a point fighting style for me to really enjoy it. I appreciate the science. I just don’t find it entertaining. I do like his grappling style though.

Fair enough. It is interesting though, his style looked unbeatable until Garmbrant made it look a bit silly ha ha
 
He wouldn't have created it without watching boxing footwork. Hence it was part of the process. He still uses boxing footwork, he just doesn't stop using his footwork in his fights. His game is dependent on his constant footwork. But it's still from boxing footwork. He's compared himself to Willie Pep numerous times, he will probably say he watched his footwork early on in his fighting career.

He self taught himself because he didn't have a trianer/coach teach him that. We are talking about fighting techniques and martial arts, usually there is a master/teacher/trainer/coach. The ones that learn how to fight, learn techniques, and teach themselves techniques without the help of those is self-taught, the ones that create something new is creating. It's a combination of both for some fighters. Others will only self-teach themselves techniques from other martial arts, other will do that and also create something new. It's different for everyone, many need to be taught and wouldn't be able to do it the self-teaching way. Others also will not be able to create something new.

You seem to miss the crux of what I was trying to say.

You said self-taught, but (<= denoting a contrast between what came before, in this case "self-taught" and what comes after) he got his footwork from boxing. But there is no contrast because getting his footwork was self taught. Supposedly he studied tape on Willie Pep and taught himself. What he created himself wasn't self-taught it was self-invented, if you will.

It all indeed is part of the same process, what you are taught or what you teach yourself, you can use to create new things.

But self-teaching isn't in principle different in language and in fighting. The whole process of learning fighting is what you effectively compared to the self-teaching in language, which is a skewed comparison. You can also create new words in languages just like you can create new things in fighting. But neither is part of self-teaching.

But the whole comparison was besides the point anyway, I just used language as a demonstration of self-teaching. It's not that relevant to the original point of his acquiring of boxing footwork being self-taught. So lets not get too distracted by that.
 
You seem to miss the crux of what I was trying to say.

You said self-taught, but (<= denoting a contrast between what came before, in this case "self-taught" and what comes after) he got his footwork from boxing. But there is no contrast because getting his footwork was self taught. Supposedly he studied tape on Willie Pep and taught himself. What he created himself wasn't self-taught it was self-invented, if you will.

It all indeed is part of the same process, what you are taught or what you teach yourself, you can use to create new things.

But self-teaching isn't in principle different in language and in fighting. The whole process of learning fighting is what you effectively compared to the self-teaching in language, which is a skewed comparison. You can also create new words in languages just like you can create new things in fighting. But neither is part of self-teaching.

But the whole comparison was besides the point anyway, I just used language as a demonstration of self-teaching. It's not that relevant to the original point of his acquiring of boxing footwork being self-taught. So lets not get too distracted by that.
It's still footwork, so he didn't invent it. He used boxing footwork, it's still boxing footwork that he uses. He just keeps moving but the shuffles/footowork/movement is all from boxing. He would have created it if there was no footwork or boxing footwork. But he studied boxing footowork to develop a style for himself. He didn't create his footwork movements himself. He created a style of using the footwork for himself. It's self taught because he first watched the footwork, then practiced and taught himself the footwork, then adjusted for his own style. If he was doing completely new footwork that has never been done before that would be a different story. Only thing Cruz does is apply boxing footwork differently with mma than what is used in boxing. He just tries to do non stop footwork instead of just doing it when you need to like in boxing. That's why he ended up stationary after round 1, he can't keep up that pace. Too much wasted movement. The shuffles are from many different boxers that he probably studied. He focused on the footwork but not so much the boxing technique. Like I said it's a combination of self teaching and creating. Because he created a style from it that he uses, but it's all from other fighters in boxing. He didn't create anything completely brand new from nothing at all. That's the difference.

For example if you do a move that no one has ever done, that's creating something from nothing. Cruz just uses boxing footwork non-stop, but it's still boxing footwork. His shuffles are from Willie Pep and Ali.

But that is the basis of evolution in martial arts. That's part of how martial arts evolve. Like for example Bruce Lee also was influenced by Ali's footwork, it's evident in his footwork in his own martial arts Jeet Kune Do. It isn't exactly the same but he studied Ali and used that to create something new for himself. It's different because of the style of stance and attacks that come from Bruce Lee's martial arts, it isn't the same as Ali's boxing so the movements had to be adjusted to better fit Bruce Lee's style. So the mix becom es something brand new since it was Bruce Lee mixing boxing footwork with kung fu.

Just like how BJJ evolved from Japanese Jujutsu. They didn't create the moves, they adjusted the moves and how to apply them which ended up creating something brand new. That's how martial arts keep evolving over time. There will also be people that create completely brand new moves once they start mixing all the styles because they will see things that the individual styles miss. Just like how certain moves/techniques/tactics started being developed strictly for mma like the calf kick, wall walks, pressing up against the cage, etc are some examples. More will be created with the mixing of all martial arts and not just the typical ones that have been mixed together. Which is usually just boxing, wrestling, bjj, kickboxing/muay thai. It will keep evolving because more people are coming in with other martial arts skillsets or a higher level understanding of other martial arts. Like the higher level of boxing is changing things up in mma currently because the previous level wasn't at that level before and now people are starting to see and understand the difference it makes. Also with all the spinning moves coming from traditional styles. People are starting to realize it works if you actually know how to do the moves.

MMA still has a lot of evolving to do. Some people see it, some people don't.
 
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It is a style and his movement is only awkward to people that can't figure it out. His footwork has a pattern and so does his entries and set-ups. People just can't figure out the pattern. You need an understanding of footwork and switch hitting/stance switching to understand it, plus understanding of feints. I understand his striking style and footwork. I know his patterns and set ups. It's easy for me to see it because I understand all the stuff associated with his style. Just like I understand Bud Crawford's style as well even though it's completely different than Cruz's and it's just pure boxing. Same with Jaron Ennis. The reason it's hard for people to understand is because 99% don't understand switch hitting. That's why there are very few real switch hitters in mma/boxing. All of them are self taught.

Thanks for your good explanation.
 
PS: I've always been amazed that the guy can move like that (so quick) without shoes.
 
It's still footwork, so he didn't invent it. He used boxing footwork, it's still boxing footwork that he uses. He just keeps moving but the shuffles/footowork/movement is all from boxing. He would have created it if there was no footwork or boxing footwork. But he studied boxing footowork to develop a style for himself. He didn't create his footwork movements himself. He created a style of using the footwork for himself. It's self taught because he first watched the footwork, then practiced and taught himself the footwork, then adjusted for his own style. If he was doing completely new footwork that has never been done before that would be a different story. Only thing Cruz does is apply boxing footwork differently with mma than what is used in boxing. He just tries to do non stop footwork instead of just doing it when you need to like in boxing. That's why he ended up stationary after round 1, he can't keep up that pace. Too much wasted movement. The shuffles are from many different boxers that he probably studied. He focused on the footwork but not so much the boxing technique. Like I said it's a combination of self teaching and creating. Because he created a style from it that he uses, but it's all from other fighters in boxing. He didn't create anything completely brand new from nothing at all. That's the difference.

For example if you do a move that no one has ever done, that's creating something from nothing. Cruz just uses boxing footwork non-stop, but it's still boxing footwork. His shuffles are from Willie Pep and Ali.

But that is the basis of evolution in martial arts. That's part of how martial arts evolve. Like for example Bruce Lee also was influenced by Ali's footwork, it's evident in his footwork in his own martial arts Jeet Kune Do. It isn't exactly the same but he studied Ali and used that to create something new for himself. It's different because of the style of stance and attacks that come from Bruce Lee's martial arts, it isn't the same as Ali's boxing so the movements had to be adjusted to better fit Bruce Lee's style. So the mix becom es something brand new since it was Bruce Lee mixing boxing footwork with kung fu.

Just like how BJJ evolved from Japanese Jujutsu. They didn't create the moves, they adjusted the moves and how to apply them which ended up creating something brand new. That's how martial arts keep evolving over time. There will also be people that create completely brand new moves once they start mixing all the styles because they will see things that the individual styles miss. Just like how certain moves/techniques/tactics started being developed strictly for mma like the calf kick, wall walks, pressing up against the cage, etc are some examples. More will be created with the mixing of all martial arts and not just the typical ones that have been mixed together. Which is usually just boxing, wrestling, bjj, kickboxing/muay thai. It will keep evolving because more people are coming in with other martial arts skillsets or a higher level understanding of other martial arts. Like the higher level of boxing is changing things up in mma currently because the previous level wasn't at that level before and now people are starting to see and understand the difference it makes. Also with all the spinning moves coming from traditional styles. People are starting to realize it works if you actually know how to do the moves.

MMA still has a lot of evolving to do. Some people see it, some people don't.

Bud, if the first sentence is already wrong in the sensence that I said multiple times that he self-taught the footwork and I didn't say he invented it. Then I'm not gonna read the rest of your wall of text.

You're the one who suggested it wasn't self-taught, not me. Are trolling me? Or is it so hard to understand my posts? I thought I was being pretty clear, but maybe not.
 
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i’ll admit i haven’t seen a ton of junior’s fights. maybe only a few highlights. don’t wanna speak on something i haven’t seen.


johnny nelson would drop his hands and showboat when his fights were getting boring, but he stayed behind his jab and used correct balances footwork. naseem didn’t do anything like that. johnny nelson was closer to a tyson fury than someone incredibly unconventional like chris eubank.

well, there are more things that go into being a great fighter than fundamentals but the vast majority of great fighters have great fundamentals. of course athleticism & reflexes CAN trump that stuff. naseem had a great career. ran through a weak early 90’s 126-pound division but he won all of those fights. he’s a hall of famer. compare him to a similar sized fighter from the same era in erik morales who had a much better (and longer) career. erik had footwork, a jab, and a piston-like right hand that came from his chin. his fundamentals led to a better career.

typically, the most dominant fighters are a combination of great athleticism & solid fundamentals. the most unstoppable fighter who has ever existed is roy jones jr. he did a lot of shit wrong. i think his fundamentals & balance are underrated but he utilized his physical gifts more often than not. naseem isn’t anywhere near roy’s level though.

I can pretty much agree with your post. One thing I would say about Roy and Nasem is that, at one point in their lives, they did learn the fundamentals of boxing. I truly believe that you have to develop a strict style and somehow be half way decent at it until you "loosen up" like your breaking in to a new outfit. Not the best description but I do feel like Naseem did have decent foundation early on that was more subtle.

This comes from my experience and interpretation of experimenting with Ricardo Lopez style boxing. Ricardo has an extremely strict style. Its very difficult to navigate but once you make it functional, it makes a loose style more effective if that makes sense. Like taking of a weighted vest which allows you freedom.


Hence why I feel like at one point in his life early on Naseem had foundation. Lastly to say, I get argumentative with people when they keep saying the reason Naseem lost was fundamental. While that is part of it, I get combative that him being overly out of shape with love handles gets ignored and all the blame is all of a sudden is shifted on his style and his style alone being the only reason why he failed. To me, he was a successful fighter, who knows how well he would do with proper boxing foundation.

Would a proper style let him express his physical attributes or would a proper style have made muzzled and stifled his success?


We live in an imperfect reality, I always felt that his imperfect style allowed his physical attribute to be utilized to the maximum which is why it made him extremely successful. Just my thoughts.
 
cruz was more effective last night when he turned down his crazy movement. also one of the reasons cody smashed him, he wasn't fooled by cruz and had the technique and hand speed to make him pay.
 
Bud, if the first sentence is already wrong in the sensence that I said multiple times that he self-taught the footwork and I didn't say he invented it. Then I'm not gonna read the rest of your wall of text.

You're the one who suggested it wasn't self-taught, not me. Are trolling me? Or is it so hard to understand my posts? I thought I was being pretty clear, but maybe not.
Are you dumb? I said it was both. You were trying to argue that it isn't considered being self taught and assuming Cruz invented it. News flash, Cruz didn't invent boxing footwork. That's all it is. He created a style for himself with the boxing footwork but he didn't invent the footwork.

I don't care if you didn't read the wall of text, that's your bad and you missing out on valuable information. You wouldn't understand it because you don't have the mind to self teach yourself, or invent anything. You need people holding your hands and teaching you everything. We are not the same.
 
Are you dumb? I said it was both. You were trying to argue that it isn't considered being self taught and assuming Cruz invented it. News flash, Cruz didn't invent boxing footwork. That's all it is. He created a style for himself with the boxing footwork but he didn't invent the footwork.

I don't care if you didn't read the wall of text, that's your bad and you missing out on valuable information. You wouldn't understand it because you don't have the mind to self teach yourself, or invent anything. You need people holding your hands and teaching you everything. We are not the same.

You said and I repeat myself again.

Self taught but he studied boxing footwork.

The word but denotes a contrast, it shows that something contrary happened. But the studying of footworlk is not contary to the self teaching, it IS the self teaching

You're just completely ignoring what I have been saying in every post. Maybe you just gloss over them and think you get what I was saying, but you clearly weren't getting what I was saying.
 
@FIghtxIQ I taught myself English as a kid, and I'd think someone with IQ in his name and who has the need to randomly pat himself on the back for remembering shot selections of fighters because he has such a great memory (lol), would be able to understand just as well as me what "but" means.
 
@FIghtxIQ I taught myself English as a kid, and I'd think someone with IQ in his name and who has the need to randomly pat himself on the back for remembering shot selections of fighters because he has such a great memory (lol), would be able to understand just as well as me what "but" means.
Then I don't see where the confusion is? lol you are the one confused not me. The discussion was about Dominik Cruz's striking background and where he got his footwork from. I just went into more detail with what his style consists of, because many don't understand anything about it. So the few that do, have to educate everyone else because no one else knows what they are looking at. His style is simple to dissect, people just don't understand anything about footwork/movement/boxing or stance switching/switch hitting so they are confused and call it a puzzle. Sorry you guys can't figure it out. That's where my IQ in my name comes from. Being able to see and understand shit that other people don't.
 
P4p pillowest hands 11 years of fighting with one finish
 
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