Does know one realize this? Kamaru Usman is shaping up to be the GOAT

Everything about your post is moronic. You say Jones beat Cans, but he probably has the best strength of scheduled and WAY better wins than Usman. You say GSP is a point fighter, but he has a better finishing % than Usman does. You say GSP squeaked out too many close decisions, but he has ONE, the same as Usman
 
613 said:
Everything about your post is moronic. You say Jones beat Cans, but he probably has the best strength of scheduled and WAY better wins than Usman. You say GSP is a point fighter, but he has a better finishing % than Usman does. You say GSP squeaked out too many close decisions, but he has ONE, the same as Usman
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Jones has a lot of wins but not many high quality ones.

Rashad was a good one. DC wins don't count. His wins lately have been questionable, he either barely won or arguably lost.

The consensus is that since USADA, Jones has looked mediocre. And before USADA he looked like a world beater against undersized guys on the downslope of their careers.

However, I even admitted Jones would be the undisputed GOAT were it not for PED violations, due solely to an undefeated record and many title defenses.

But if Kamura beats Khamzat and gets a few more defenses, he will definitely eclipse Jones in GOAT discussions.
 
GUY said:
my view is: Jones got punished for his steroid use, that's it, he couldnt fight for a while which hurt his legacy a little. That's a problem for USADA and the UFC to solve, not for me as a fan to worry about. Why mentioning it when talking about GOAT status?
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Because he cheated, so how could a cheater be great? That's like me taking a taxi to the end of the marathon then claiming I'm the best long distance runner ever.
 
I consider Fedor, GSP, Jones and Silva (in no particular order) to be the big 4 in terms of goat status because I believe they are on a tier apart from everyone else. Having said that, there’s a case to be made for and against all of them, and Usman is no different.

Fedor fought at heavyweight, but he had a a fair number of freak show fights against guys who weren’t even in the top 100 as well as some fights against guys in lower classes who moved up. He also never competed at different weight classes, although being a hw his whole career softens that criticism a little.

Jones has never lost by anything other than dq, and he fought the best in the division from a pretty young age. He’s also the only one on this list who tested positive during his prime years, casting some doubt as to his careers legitimacy. Additionally he’s the only person on this list besides Fedor who hasn’t competed across multiple weight classes, but he wasn’t a hw.

Silva has top 5 wins at 3 different weight classes, and looked spectacular during his his run. He also has more losses than everyone else on this list combined.

GSP never faced an opponent he didn’t defeat, with his lone two losses being avenged in dominant fashion. He has more top 5 or top 10 wins than anyone else on this list, and he competed against high level talent from very early on with his first top 10 opponent coming just 5 fights into his career. He also has 1 win at mw against a ranked opponent and this win got him a second title. He also lost to a lw during his prime and spent much of his career accumulating decisions rather than finishing his opponents.

Kamaru is undefeated and has the second most title defenses at ww but he also spent much of his early career fighting lower ranked opposition. He’s never beaten any ranked fighters in a division other than his own, and 2 of his title defenses were against an ex lw with double digit losses.

Everyone has a case to be made against them, let’s not pretend as though Usman is somehow different in this regard.
 
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BFoe said:
It certainly could. What if you’re a HW like DC and go down a weight class? What if you’re a HW and can’t (or don’t) go a weight class below? Can you not be GOAT because you never won a 2nd title? These are all discussion points is all I’m saying.

—In your mind getting choked out by a no-name scrub is less objectionable than losing to ATGs like Werdum or Hendo, or a very good fighter like Bigfoot, after accomplishing stuff that hasn’t been equaled? That seems odd, but to each their own. Fedor had one continuous unbeaten streak in which he put down a number of ranked opponents which is unequaled AFAIK without a PED test failure, and he strung together a number of title defenses which is still a record in that weight class for a single reign/unbeaten run. Let me know when someone else does that.

—I have no idea what you could be smoking to call Rogers Fedor’s biggest win outside of PRIDE. Arlovski? Sylvia?

—There’s really nothing too early about when Fedor declined either. He debuted at age 23 almost 24, and was clearly declined early in his 11th year as a pro in after 33 HW fights. GSP had his brutal fight with Hendricks and walked away from the sport in his 11th year as a pro, at age 32. Usman has a year to a year-and-a-half before he’s at that mark and he’s already talking about retirement. We’ll see how long he fights, whom he fights, and how he holds up.
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Ah I thought those were Pride, they were affliction. OK. I think it's safe to say though, Fedor wasn't able to replicate the Pride magic fighting in the US. He got a few fortunate wins winging reckless looping punches, then pretty much got ran through.

Of course losing very early in your career, while you're still a newbie to the sport, is less bad than a string of losses at your prime.

Overeem fought for 20 + years and still put in a good showing at HW for the last couple. A rapid fall off kind of counts against you, unfortunately.
 
Kamaru is a beast and I agree he is very close to on paper having a better run then anyone at a division GSP reigned at. Crazy shit.

I think people will always view GSP in a different light because he was reigning at a time when the sport was becoming a major popular sport. And he was generally a really nice outgoing guy at his public appearances in a sport some in the public bought into the narrative that it was human cockfighting. His image meant as much to the sport as his accomplishments in the octagon.

Plus GSP has the whole country of Canadia behind him.
Kamaru is in the much more crowded field of American fighters while also having the distinction of polarizing some of those fans by also representing Nigeria--nationalistic fans are fickle, especially in the USA where we have dominated so many sports on the global stage for generations.


Odoylerules4lyf said:
Guy is amazing for sure. Unfortunately those unnecessary title rematches against Masvidal and Covington slowed his momentum.
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Masvidal I agree with but it probably was his biggest paycheck fight to take at the time and Covington looks like the next best guy in the weight class. Both Covington fights, even with the TKO, were extremely close. I wouldn't say that was unnecessary. But Masvidal never made sense to me getting a title fight, outside of the marketability standpoint. The second title fight was super-unnecessary, though the result was memorable.

Not that there aren't other worthy fighters.

I think Luque and Leon are up next and then depending on how things shake out if Khamzat can grab a top 5 win, him, and perhaps Muslim if he can continue his momentum up the rankings with a couple top 10 wins.
 
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Maybe however fighting Masvidal twice doesn't do much for me.
 
Did Silva have an abnormal decline with age, or did he have some of the best longevity ever??

He was almost 38 when he lost his belt, then snapped his leg in half and still was a highly competitive fighter afterwards against the best fighters in his division and in the world.

Any goat tier fighter with 20yrs of wear and tear in their 40’s will always perform far less than their peak.

Usman isn’t shaping up to be the goat, he is building a strong case for #2 WW all time as of now. Defending your title is the hardest thing to do in the sport, no defense is easy. He very well could be past his peak at this point, and stringing together another 4-5 wins is gonna be extremely difficult.
 
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While I already think he might be second(between him and MM for me) I think it's impossible for him to pass Jones regardless of how long he keeps this thing going. Jones opponents were typically legends and he didn't just clean out LHW he was almost cleaning out the HOF. Before he came along Machida, Rampage, Evans and Shogun were head and shoulders above anyone else and he low diffed them all. He then beat a second generation and while the gap has shrunk to almost nothing he is still likely the best in a third. Marty is not doing that.

WW is a good division and Marty's almost cleaned it out but his best opponent is Colby whose best feat is being competitive with Marty and it's based on a few big wins. GSP(Fitch) and AS(Hendo, Belfort) had that same issue and so has everyone else who went on an extended unbeaten run(Fedor etc). But the lionshare of Jones title run has been big wins.

I might have Marty above MM but MM's title run was slightly more impressive IMO. Reason I have Marty higher is MM's dominance started mid career.
 
GUY said:
my view is: Jones got punished for his steroid use, that's it, he couldnt fight for a while which hurt his legacy a little. That's a problem for USADA and the UFC to solve, not for me as a fan to worry about. Why mentioning it when talking about GOAT status?
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What a shit take. He was juicing during his undefeated run, that taints all of those wins.
 
SouthpawSouthernFist said:
His greatest challenge was DC, and he roided for those, so those wins don't count.

Otherwise he beat a bunch of blown up middleweights on the downtrend of their careers.
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So who exactly did Usman fight? Bloated lightweight journeyman(2x) and another welterweight a weight class below him in size with 0 power (2x), Over the hill Woodley (went 1-6? Including KO to Paul). Yeah, he really fought a bunch of killers!
 
SouthpawSouthernFist said:
Because he cheated, so how could a cheater be great? That's like me taking a taxi to the end of the marathon then claiming I'm the best long distance runner ever.
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I judge what I see inside the octagon, for the rest I will let the competent authorities make their judgements. I am a fighting sports fan, not a member of an athletic commission nor a judge in a court of law to worry about these things.
 
SouthpawSouthernFist said:
Most GOAT candidates have problems with their case:

- Losses
- Steroid violations (Jones)
- Weak strength of schedule / fighting cans (Fedor, Jones)
- Not enough title defenses (DC. Khabib)
- Point fighting (GSP)
- Squeaking by with wins / close victories (GSP)
- Rapid decline in career in older age (Silva, Fedor)
- Retired too early (Khabib)

Kamarudeen so far has none of these issues.

If he gets past Khamzat, the division is pretty clear. He could easily string together 4 more defenses.

At that point he's the GOAT, undisputed.

Israel Adesanya was shaping up to be a GOAT, but then he kinda got son'd by a subpar LHW champ, which kind of sullies his case.

Kinda nuts, huh? Kamaru can be the GOAT if he plays his cards right. Weird to think about.

** GOAT fighter, Conor is undisputed GOAT prize fighter in the UFC.
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Pound for pound worst threadstarter in the heavies.

He has beaten the same 3 opponents for all his defences. With nobody actually earning a second shot at him or fighting any other top guy for that rematch.
His title reign won't hold up to any of the people above. His best win is still Colby with Colby's best win being WW RDA who lost to the whole top 5.
It just doesn't hold up at all.
 
You're right. I never saw his lone career loss but it seems it's no longer an issue
 
You are talking shit to Isreal for losing to LHW but which one is better, going up and losing or not going up because of being afraid of losing?
 
SouthpawSouthernFist said:
Ah I thought those were Pride, they were affliction. OK. I think it's safe to say though, Fedor wasn't able to replicate the Pride magic fighting in the US. He got a few fortunate wins winging reckless looping punches, then pretty much got ran through.

Of course losing very early in your career, while you're still a newbie to the sport, is less bad than a string of losses at your prime.

Overeem fought for 20 + years and still put in a good showing at HW for the last couple. A rapid fall off kind of counts against you, unfortunately.
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Yeah those were Affliction. Ultimately, any MMA fan making a GOAT list will have to weight the significance of his losses out for themselves. I’ll offer a few points though.
—A lot of people like to say Fedor only won in Japan, and “what happened when he came to the U.S.??” The answer is, he won his first 4 straight fights, all by finish, against opponents that included 3 former UFC champs. (Coleman 2, Sylvia, Arlovski, Rogers).
—It’s worth noting the order. Coleman 2 was a PRIDE event in Vegas (regulated by NSAC and fought under Unified Rules), and that was followed by wins over Hunt (PRIDE, Japan), Lindland (Bodog, Russia).Choi (Yarrenoka! Japan), Sylvia, (Aflfliction, US), Arlovski (Affliction, US), and Rogers (Strikeforce, US). Then came the losses. So fighting in the US isn’t the problem. Fighting under the Unified Rules isn’t the problem (although it certainly limited him a bit). We basically have 2 possible major causes: decline, or the cage as opposed to ring.
—Overeem is a beast, one of my fave fighters. Post PED failure, he fought 19 fights, and went 11-8. He has 19 losses overall. Fedor has 5 legit losses in 21 years, and 2 of those didn’t happen until he returned from retirement at age 38. Since Strikeforce, he is 9-2. Since returning from retirement, 6-2. If you wanted to just look at fights regulated by US commissions, it’s 4-2. And one of those 2 losses was pretty flukey (Mitrione).

Fedor at age 45 just smoked a dude with wins over UFC Top 10 guys (Johnson was robbed of a win over a UFC top 5 guy as well). Fedor has lost 2/3 of his skills, but it’s not like he can’t win a fight lol.
 
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BFoe said:
Yeah those were Affliction. Ultimately, any MMA fan making a GOAT list will have to weight the significance of his losses out for themselves. I’ll offer a few points though.
—A lot of people like to say Fedor only won in Japan, and “what happened when he came to the U.S.??” The answer is, he won his first 4 straight fights, all by finish, against opponents that included 3 former UFC champs. (Coleman 2, Sylvia, Arlovski, Rogers).
—It’s worth noting the order. Coleman 2 was a PRIDE event in Vegas (regulated by NSAC and fought under Unified Rules), and that was followed by wins over Hunt (PRIDE, Japan), Lindland (Bodog, Russia).Choi (Yarrenoka! Japan), Sylvia, (Aflfliction, US), Arlovski (Affliction, US), and Rogers (Strikeforce, US). Then came the losses. So fighting in the US isn’t the problem. Fighting under the Unified Rules isn’t the problem (although it certainly limited him a bit). We basically have 2 possible major causes: decline, or the cage as opposed to ring.
—Overeem is a beast, one of my fave fighters. Post PED failure, he fought 19 fights, and went 11-8. He has 19 losses overall. Fedor has 5 legit losses in 21 years, and 2 of those didn’t happen until he returned from retirement at age 38. Since Strikeforce, he is 9-2. Since returning from retirement, 6-2. If you wanted to just look at fights regulated by US commissions, it’s 4-2. And one of those 2 losses was pretty flukey (Mitrione).

Fedor at age 45 just smoked a dude with wins over UFC Top 10 guys (Johnson was robbed of a win over a UFC top 5 guy as well). Fedor has Los 2/3 of his skills, but it’s not like he can’t win a fight lol.
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Hey my friend. What do you think of current Fedor chances against a guy like Ciryl Gane or even Ngannou?
 
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