Does anybody do 5 day splits?

[NurseKnuckles]

I have heard that from coaches that beginners need more movements and honestly that makes no sense. Why would you start out with a bunch of volume and assistance exercises to maybe later do less work. If anything as you advance you must increase your overall volume to further get stronger.

Focusing your efforts (technically) on compound movements is still important. I would say priority. However building strength and size all over is not a bad thing especially as a beginner.

 

[JimRussel]

I have heard that from coaches that beginners need more movements and honestly that makes no sense. Why would you start out with a bunch of volume and assistance exercises to maybe later do less work. If anything as you advance you must increase your overall volume to further get stronger.

When it comes to powerlifting, it's probably better to start with less sport specificity and more overall volume. Simply put, you want to take advantage of the rapid progress you make in muscular gains at the beginning of your training career. This will, in turn, give you a higher ceiling further on down the road. Then, you might focus more on powerlifting specific movements and more volume in those movements. There will be plenty of time to hammer the squat/bench/deadlift, but you see way too many new "powerlifters" doing it from day one. I've known new lifters who were skinny and weak as fuck who did nothing but hammer the main lifts each day they were in the gym. You end up with lifters who still have no appreciable muscle mass or strength after a couple years of lifting.

Guys like Malanichev and other lifters of that level? Well, yeah, of course they focus mainly on sport specificity.

As for your last sentence, it depends. Sport specificity and where you put that increased training volume matters.

 

[JimRussel]

Here's a great post from Kyle on the subject:


It has been a while since I have gone on a FB powerlifting-inspired rant. If I wanted to be as inflammatory as possible, I would call this my attack on the recent trend towards volume and frequency in powerlifting. As someone who trains with a lot of volume and frequency, I obviously don't want that to be the case, but I will be frank here and say that an alarming number of lifters and coaches are pulling the cart WAY before the horse.

I see more and more problems get "solved" with volume and frequency. We now have an army of natural powerlifters who train using a sport-specific, high-volume, and high-frequency approach, and they don't even look like they lift.

I have talked elsewhere about improving your ceiling as a lifter, and I will say it again: for all developing lifters, the #1 goal in training shouls be to increase your ceiling, not get stronger. Repeat: NOT GET STRONGER.

Strength will be a very welcome side effect, and will likely come faster than if you just manipulate volume and frequency.

Things that matter in the formative years: gaining as much lean body mass as possible and becoming as technically efficient and proficient as possible. Along with technical efficiency, we are counting preventative training: building sport-specific mobility and achieving total-body strength symmetry.

What does all this require? A lot of general strength work, a large hypertrophy component, and frankly, a lot of work that isn't a competition-style squat, bench, or deadlift.

Specificity training, beyond technical development? Not terribly important. Improvijg work capacity? Ditto.

Regardless of federation, the top lifters nowadays look like they lift. You are either going to accomplish this from the beginning in your training--probably a good idea, considering how long physique development takes--or you are going to scrape and claw your way towards every last pound as an intermediate level lifter.

If there was an ideal trajectory for a powerlifting athlete's long term development, it would look, I feel, something like this:

1.) General phase. Build lots of muscle. Train in a non specific manner. Introduce comp style lifts with a hypertrophy component, but don't stress about training intensity. Get a lot bigger, make sure there are no real strength imbalances, and push your ceiling as high as possible. Bodybuilders, to a great degree, already do this, which is why they are so much easier to convert into powerlifting.

2.) Specific phase. Introdue a lot of comp-style training. Let the lifts skyrocket. Really perfect motor patterns as much as possible. So, Starting Strength, except not undertaken by the 98-pound weakling.

3.) General-specific phase. At some point, strength imbalances occur. Weaknesses are developed. This is that period in which a lot of movement variations as correctives get introduced.

4.) Specific phase. Yay, weaknesses have been fixed. The athlete at this point is probably 10+ years into powerlifting. Take as much advantage of specific training as possible to eek out every last pound. This whole thing is essentially R.A. Roman's trajectoty for Olympic weightlifters with get big or die trying added onto the front end, but it still bears repeating.

 

[NurseKnuckles]

Spoiler

It has been a while since I have gone on a FB powerlifting-inspired rant. If I wanted to be as inflammatory as possible, I would call this my attack on the recent trend towards volume and frequency in powerlifting. As someone who trains with a lot of volume and frequency, I obviously don't want that to be the case, but I will be frank here and say that an alarming number of lifters and coaches are pulling the cart WAY before the horse.

I see more and more problems get "solved" with volume and frequency. We now have an army of natural powerlifters who train using a sport-specific, high-volume, and high-frequency approach, and they don't even look like they lift.

I have talked elsewhere about improving your ceiling as a lifter, and I will say it again: for all developing lifters, the #1 goal in training shouls be to increase your ceiling, not get stronger. Repeat: NOT GET STRONGER.

Strength will be a very welcome side effect, and will likely come faster than if you just manipulate volume and frequency.

Things that matter in the formative years: gaining as much lean body mass as possible and becoming as technically efficient and proficient as possible. Along with technical efficiency, we are counting preventative training: building sport-specific mobility and achieving total-body strength symmetry.

What does all this require? A lot of general strength work, a large hypertrophy component, and frankly, a lot of work that isn't a competition-style squat, bench, or deadlift.

Specificity training, beyond technical development? Not terribly important. Improvijg work capacity? Ditto.

Regardless of federation, the top lifters nowadays look like they lift. You are either going to accomplish this from the beginning in your training--probably a good idea, considering how long physique development takes--or you are going to scrape and claw your way towards every last pound as an intermediate level lifter.

If there was an ideal trajectory for a powerlifting athlete's long term development, it would look, I feel, something like this:

1.) General phase. Build lots of muscle. Train in a non specific manner. Introduce comp style lifts with a hypertrophy component, but don't stress about training intensity. Get a lot bigger, make sure there are no real strength imbalances, and push your ceiling as high as possible. Bodybuilders, to a great degree, already do this, which is why they are so much easier to convert into powerlifting.

2.) Specific phase. Introdue a lot of comp-style training. Let the lifts skyrocket. Really perfect motor patterns as much as possible. So, Starting Strength, except not undertaken by the 98-pound weakling.

3.) General-specific phase. At some point, strength imbalances occur. Weaknesses are developed. This is that period in which a lot of movement variations as correctives get introduced.

4.) Specific phase. Yay, weaknesses have been fixed. The athlete at this point is probably 10+ years into powerlifting. Take as much advantage of specific training as possible to eek out every last pound. This whole thing is essentially R.A. Roman's trajectoty for Olympic weightlifters with get big or die trying added onto the front end, but it still bears repeating.

Fuck I love Kyle! you too jim

 

[JimRussel]

The average gym bro that does your typical bodypart split with a bunch of exercises and volume, who doesn't even give a shit about strength, usually ends up bigger, stronger, and looking better after one year than the "powerlifter" who hammers sets of 1-5 in the main lifts every week.

 

[Seriously-Dead]

I have heard that from coaches that beginners need more movements and honestly that makes no sense. Why would you start out with a bunch of volume and assistance exercises to maybe later do less work. If anything as you advance you must increase your overall volume to further get stronger.

You don't do more movements to somehow magically reduce the athletes workload later on. You do it to develop more coordination and awareness so it's easier and safer to teach them more complex movements later on.

Reducing things down to simple single joint exercises makes it a lot easier for an uncoordinated beginner to develop awareness of their body.

Imagine I'm teaching a front squat to a complete newbie who's never done anything athletic in his life and has zero muscle tone or coordination. When I tell him to contract his quads, will he know what to do? Probably not. But if I get him familiar with leg extensions beforehand, he'll know exactly how to do it. Not only that, during the squat he also has to contract his glutes while contracting his quads, while also actively maintaining a straight back, keeping his abs tight, breathing properly, making sure to stay upright, and keep his hamstrings from fighting against the quads. It may not seem that complex to people with some level of coordination, but for people with none they have to work through all of this consciously.

This example is using relatively simple joints. Imagine what happens when dealing with the shoulder girdle and the myriad of small muscles involved in those movements.

Until you've trained someone who's had zero athletic or physical experience outside of walking and sitting on their ass and no natural ability it's hard to really appreciate the level of coordination that can go into simple movements.

I remember learning this the hard way when I was teaching a group class of relatively experienced lifters the power snatch, with one guy who was completely new to everything. No matter what I did to try and cue the proper movements, he just couldn't make it work. Everyone else picked it up relatively quickly and looked passable. Dude had zero muscle tone and shit coordination. If he had just stuck with it he would have ended up badly hurting himself. Lots of young children are the same. I taught children's gymnastics before I ever trained an adult, and it gave me a good understanding of these principles because most kids are useless and uncoordinated.

In reality, approaching physical training this way makes it very similar to teaching anyone anything. If you want to teach someone piano, you don't start someone off with Beethoven's fifth. First they learn hot cross buns and develop some coordination and dexterity first through simple exercises, scales, and songs.

 

[j123]

One arm day... may as well do Crossfit lol

If your goal is to get on disability benefits, then probably it is

 

[Seriously-Dead]

Also everything that Jim/Kyle and NK said is completely spot on.

To me, athletics is about building up the parts and integrating them into a whole. Over and over and over again.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

The average gym bro that does your typical bodypart split with a bunch of exercises and volume, who doesn't even give a shit about strength, usually ends up bigger, stronger, and looking better after one year than the "powerlifter" who hammers sets of 1-5 in the main lifts every week.

I dont agree here either. A linear progression with the "powerlifts" with sets of 5 doesnt take near a year to do and you will gain muscle mass....a lot of muscle mass and strength doing it. At that point you pick a specific goal to train for and at that point if bodybuilding is a goal a bodypart split is pretty much optimal for that person. Being ridiculously stronger in the "powerlifts" in such a short amount of time will allow one to create more stress when he gets into higher rep training with those movements and thus more muscle mass. Of course if we are talking the higher levels of powerlifting...the Ronnie Colemans of the world well when you have that much Test "supplementation" plus you are strong well we all see what can happen.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

You don't do more movements to somehow magically reduce the athletes workload later on. You do it to develop more coordination and awareness so it's easier and safer to teach them more complex movements later on.

Reducing things down to simple single joint exercises makes it a lot easier for an uncoordinated beginner to develop awareness of their body.

Imagine I'm teaching a front squat to a complete newbie who's never done anything athletic in his life and has zero muscle tone or coordination. When I tell him to contract his quads, will he know what to do? Probably not. But if I get him familiar with leg extensions beforehand, he'll know exactly how to do it. Not only that, during the squat he also has to contract his glutes while contracting his quads, while also actively maintaining a straight back, keeping his abs tight, breathing properly, making sure to stay upright, and keep his hamstrings from fighting against the quads. It may not seem that complex to people with some level of coordination, but for people with none they have to work through all of this consciously.

This example is using relatively simple joints. Imagine what happens when dealing with the shoulder girdle and the myriad of small muscles involved in those movements.

Until you've trained someone who's had zero athletic or physical experience outside of walking and sitting on their ass and no natural ability it's hard to really appreciate the level of coordination that can go into simple movements.

I remember learning this the hard way when I was teaching a group class of relatively experienced lifters the power snatch, with one guy who was completely new to everything. No matter what I did to try and cue the proper movements, he just couldn't make it work. Everyone else picked it up relatively quickly and looked passable. Dude had zero muscle tone and shit coordination. If he had just stuck with it he would have ended up badly hurting himself. Lots of young children are the same. I taught children's gymnastics before I ever trained an adult, and it gave me a good understanding of these principles because most kids are useless and uncoordinated.

In reality, approaching physical training this way makes it very similar to teaching anyone anything. If you want to teach someone piano, you don't start someone off with Beethoven's fifth. First they learn hot cross buns and develop some coordination and dexterity first through simple exercises, scales, and songs.

If you cannot teach an athlete the ability to squat, press, bench and deadlift I am going to say you arent a very effective coach. Thats my opinion which you will likely say is shit but it is what it is. If you can get a non athlete to attain the ability to squat that athlete can do the easier movements with no challenge. Its the old tried and true saying where if you can learn something more complex it makes the less complex that much easier.

 

[JimRussel]

I dont agree here either. A linear progression with the "powerlifts" with sets of 5 doesnt take near a year to do and you will gain muscle mass....a lot of muscle mass and strength doing it. At that point you pick a specific goal to train for and at that point if bodybuilding is a goal a bodypart split is pretty much optimal for that person. Being ridiculously stronger in the "powerlifts" in such a short amount of time will allow one to create more stress when he gets into higher rep training with those movements and thus more muscle mass. Of course if we are talking the higher levels of powerlifting...the Ronnie Colemans of the world well when you have that much Test "supplementation" plus you are strong well we all see what can happen.

Yeah, you usually end up looking like one of Rip's athletes.

 

[JimRussel]

If you cannot teach an athlete the ability to squat, press, bench and deadlift I am going to say you arent a very effective coach. Thats my opinion which you will likely say is shit but it is what it is. If you can get a non athlete to attain the ability to squat that athlete can do the easier movements with no challenge. Its the old tried and true saying where if you can learn something more complex it makes the less complex that much easier.

You're significantly underestimating just how uncoordinated, unathletic, and lacking in kinesthetic awareness a lot of people are when they start lifting weights.

Also, some people legitimately can't start doing those exercises with even just the empty bar. You'd be forced to do something else until the strength was there to start doing the compound movements with a barbell.

 

[Seriously-Dead]

If you cannot teach an athlete the ability to squat, press, bench and deadlift I am going to say you arent a very effective coach. Thats my opinion which you will likely say is shit but it is what it is. If you can get a non athlete to attain the ability to squat that athlete can do the easier movements with no challenge. Its the old tried and true saying where if you can learn something more complex it makes the less complex that much easier.

Earlier, I was wondering if responding to you was a waste of time since, time and time again, you have shown a complete inability to ever change your mind or learn something from another person. Looks like I was right.

Btw, that "old saying" is fucking retarded. Here's a better one that's more in line with the realities of teaching: Start simple, stupid.

 

[JimRussel]

Earlier, I was wondering if responding to you was a waste of time...

Oh it 100% always is.

With topics like these, I just try to post enough correct, coherent information to drown him out. Hopefully, the people reading along can find their way lol.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

You're significantly underestimating just how uncoordinated, unathletic, and lacking in kinesthetic awareness a lot of people are when they start lifting weights.

Also, some people legitimately can't start doing those exercises with even just the empty bar. You'd be forced to do something else until the strength was there to start doing the compound movements with a barbell.

Yes this is called progressing to the parent movement. It really is not necesssary to do with majority of 20-30 year old males. But yes I do agree with you to an extent.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

Yeah, you usually end up looking like one of Rip's athletes.

I dont know anything about this particular individual but my guess is he did not follow an appropriate diet given his circumstances. It isnt Rips job to make sure the Kid eats correctly.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

Earlier, I was wondering if responding to you was a waste of time since, time and time again, you have shown a complete inability to ever change your mind or learn something from another person. Looks like I was right.

Btw, that "old saying" is fucking retarded. Here's a better one that's more in line with the realities of teaching: Start simple, stupid.

Yes I never learned from anybody I just came up with this shit off the top of my head. You apparently learned from people to but the problem is it was pure shit. My guess is you dont get much accomplished with novice athletes.

 

[Seriously-Dead]

With topics like these, I just try to post enough correct, coherent information to drown him out. Hopefully, the people reading along can find their way lol.

Yup. If you can't beat em, drown em out.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

Oh it 100% always is.

With topics like these, I just try to post enough correct, coherent information to drown him out. Hopefully, the people reading along can find their way lol.

You normally type in a coherent manner but your usually full of shit in a coherent way. Funny how that works.

 

[JimRussel]

Yes this is called progressing to the parent movement. It really is not necesssary to do with majority of 20-30 year old males. But yes I do agree with you to an extent.

And we all know no tiny women train!