Does a failed drug test matter in the GOAT discussion?

[george14]

No. They'd all have tested positive for something if USADA was around day 1 and in PRIDE

This is a really unfair way to view things. It's basically a Jon Jones and Anderson Silva fanboy argument.

"My guy tested positive, but everyone was on it since I can't blame them for anything".

 

[ClosetVitorFan]

Yes. Dirty tests taint your legacy because now we can speculate you've been using your whole career. The only time I don't think it should taint your career is if you legit took a tainted supplement, usada investigated it, found the supplement to be tainted and somewhat exonerates you. Then you're ok. But dick pills, foot cream, kangaroo meat....Lol sorry but no. When Jones popped the first time the so called dick pills didn't even have both of the pct drugs he tested positive for in them. So that was a lie. Now getting busted for Tbol, he couldn't even find an excuse this time. He cheated. He cheated for God knows how long.

Anderson and Jones are a bit different. Both have 2 failed drug tests. But Anderson Silva failed his tests passed his prime. While Jones is currently in his prime. But difference.

 

[fractal]

I think if you have to use PED... That you're a joke. I always found Vitor Belfort entertaining. But it didn't change the fact if he wasn't on TRT or roids he got his ass handed to him by any relevant fighter.

Do you actually believe that any top athlete in any sport today is completely natural?

 

[Fox by the Sea]

anyone caught with roids is eliminated from the GOAT discussion. period.

 

[YeahNo]

Does to your body since it can' tell the difference because there genetically identical

CZ and diamonds appear the same but have different properties.

The testosterone you produce and inject are exactly the same

They can be distinguished in a lab. They are not chemically identical.

 

[Senzo Tanaka]

It should. By the rules, you are cheating.

Every major sport blacklists their stars, and takes away records if they are caught doping. The sport of MMA seems to ignore or forgive drug use.

 

[Mebetter]

Does to your body since it can' tell the difference because there genetically identical

CZ and diamonds appear the same but have different properties.

The testosterone you produce and inject are exactly the same

Not even close to true, which is why the t/e ratio is an indicator of synthetic use. Also the body has adverse effects to synthetic testosterone which is why it shuts down the testes and also usually leads to gyno. If it was exactly the same as you say, you could take it with mininimum to no side effects.

 

[JoshR86]

They can be distinguished in a lab. They are not chemically identical.

NO they cannot unless you buy some really cheap stuff.

 

[imarayda]

It shouldn't. Just about every Olympic athlete (many of which getting by on stipends of under 20K a year) faces as hard or harder testing than USADA for years without getting caught - the percentage caught is very small. So why are so many MMA fighters (who have more money) caught, especially top level ones? Things can go wrong, but in most cases its because either procedures weren't followed (and the procedures are pretty straightforward), or because usage is excessive.

I agree timing your cycle is part of the game, everyone knows how to do it. Which is why getting caught means overdoing it.

Again you're working under the assumption that the only reason someone with money would get caught is because they're overdoing it, which there is no evidence for. Having money doesn't mean you can't fck up.

The Olympics has been dealing with testing for a long time, their doping is down to a science. By the logic you're using the assumption would be that those track athletes are doping but "not overdoing it". Which there also isn't any evidence for.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Again you're working under the assumption that the only reason someone with money would get caught is because they're overdoing it, which there is no evidence for. Having money doesn't mean you can't fck up.

The Olympics has been dealing with testing for a long time, their doping is down to a science. By the logic you're using the assumption would be that those track athletes are doping but "not overdoing it". Which there also isn't any evidence for.

Agreed there's no direct evidence, because we don't know the quantities and procedures used by those who fail. However, there's a lot of experimental evidence (done under controlled setting) that using too heavy dosages with the correct procedure still shows up on tests (the tests work extremely well as an upper limit), and that using safe dosages with improper timing still shows up on tests.

In fact, those are the main mechanisms for failure (the other mechanism is poor choice of PED's, but that's pretty rare among high level athletes).

I guess we differ on whether the guys who fail are more likely to screw up in dosages (my suspicion) or on timing (your suspicion). Given how straightforward and well understood the timing procedures are (the same info that Olympic athletes use to avoid detection is available to top MMA fighters), I just don't see how anyone could screw that up - there's no advantage to breaking procedure. Whereas going with heavier dosages gives an advantage, and so there is always a temptation to do so.

 

[Skarr]

No. They'd all have tested positive for something if USADA was around day 1 and in PRIDE

it wasnt against the rules in pride.....

so many in this thread dont understand that cheating is cheating, its not steroids specifically that is the problem, its the rule that steroids are not allowed, were that rule not there...then game on, but it is there....so its cheating....

Im not happy there are no knees to grounded opponents and soccer kicks...I would prefer that they were allowed...but they are not, therefore anyone doing it is cheating and while I do wish for those rule changes, if someone breaks that rule its no different than any other rule and should be punished

 

[Hotora86]

YES

 

[imarayda]

Agreed there's no direct evidence, because we don't know the quantities and procedures used by those who fail. However, there's a lot of experimental evidence (done under controlled setting) that using too heavy dosages with the correct procedure still shows up on tests (the tests work extremely well as an upper limit), and that using safe dosages with improper timing still shows up on tests.

In fact, those are the main mechanisms for failure (the other mechanism is poor choice of PED's, but that's pretty rare among high level athletes).

I guess we differ on whether the guys who fail are more likely to screw up in dosages (my suspicion) or on timing (your suspicion). Given how straightforward and well understood the timing procedures are (the same info that Olympic athletes use to avoid detection is available to top MMA fighters), I just don't see how anyone could screw that up - there's no advantage to breaking procedure. Whereas going with heavier dosages gives an advantage, and so there is always a temptation to do so.

I mean that’s easy to say but athletes(even Olympic athletes) screw it up often enough. But that is neither here nor there. I don’t want to keep going in circles on the same conversation. Either way it doesn’t matter to me. Using PED’s is what it is. One fighter using more than what other fighters do is a moot point in my opinion. They’re all using something and at the end of the day it doesn’t matter to me who was doing what.

 

[myjohnson9]

Anyone who doesn't consider PED as a disqualification is biased and possibly retarded.

It's a competition and some people used an unfair edge, therefore it takes them out of the race. Simple.

The consensus 4 GOATs are Silva, Jones, GSP and Fedor. Regardless of roids Silva doesn't belong there with 8 losses.

That leaves Jones, GSP and Fedor. Jones is a PED chest.

GSP vs Fedor... and GSP has vastly superior stats than Fedor.

GSP GOAT.

Stats? Fedor has longer winstreak, more finishes, fought larger opponents, did t lose in his prime, and would kick the living shit out of gsp.

 

[bigsmooth187]

Definitely puts a big fucking asterisk by your name...

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

I mean that’s easy to say but athletes(even Olympic athletes) screw it up often enough. But that is neither here nor there. I don’t want to keep going in circles on the same conversation. Either way it doesn’t matter to me. Using PED’s is what it is. One fighter using more than what other fighters do is a moot point in my opinion. They’re all using something and at the end of the day it doesn’t matter to me who was doing what.

Yeah, we're going in circles. I agree its time to move on.

 

[wigglestick]

Its a fact they cheated, who wants the goat to be a cheater? nah

 

[YeahNo]

NO they cannot unless you buy some really cheap stuff.

Yes they can.

 

[TinkerMan]

I dno, back in the day it's highly likely every mother fucker was on em EVERYONE. Once a fighter has been caught and isn't the same after it does matter IMO, Anderson Silva for example

 

[JoshR86]

Yes they can.

No, you have no idea what your talking about, read up on how to cycle, you always need testosterone as a base, because a cycle of let's say Deca which only highlights certain aspects of testosterone, but doesn' cover the broad range of hormones you receive from testoerone.

Let's say that there are 10 hormones associated with testosterone. Deca will amplify 3.

But the other 7 will be shut off.

I only used those numbers to simplify my argument. So every athlete who does steroids needs to administer synthetic testosterone in order to maintain proper hormone activity.

Now, if the tests were able to decipher between natural and synthetically injected testosterone than every single bust would turn up a negative test for testosterone.

As soon as they started testing for the genetic make up of testosterone the companies just altered it and made it identical. If you want i can get you the exact molecular structure of natural testosterone and you can make it yourself.