Does a failed drug test matter in the GOAT discussion?

[OzoneX]

In the Goat discussion, it should also matter which organization the dude fought in. Dominating an organization in which fighters were obviously on peds and in which there was no testing in the first place should mean lower points on the goat scale. Dominating an organization run by the mafia and in which there were multiple allegations of fight fixing should also be a red flag if peds are a red flag in the goat discussion.

 

[1pedestrian]

No because everyone is on peds. Deal with it, naive people.

 

[dim_]

One thing I do wonder (calling on @dimspace) is how many Whereabout violations (skipped tests) they each had prior to failing their tests. I don't believe that info is made public but IMO it'd be telling about their knowledge/intelligence of PED use if they had no more available skips when they popped (i.e. they may have known they might pop but had no choice but to give the sample(s). Versus taking and failing a test that they could have skipped taking (i.e. they didn't think there was much risk in taking the test and decided not to skip it).

yeh,. we dont know exact numbers

all we know is year one complaince was about 80% (but how thats calculated is very vague, is that 80% filing accuracy, 80% where they are meant to be accuracy)

by 2017 they had something like 95% compliance

but, they conducted 1500+ test sessions.. so 95% compliance could mean up to 75 missed tests

 

[Roop Holstry]

GOAT discussion doesn’t matter.

It’s dumb and tiresome

 

[dim_]

IMO both Anderson and Jones are being guided by semi-knowledgeable people, but both likely didn't follow the prescribed protocol to the "T" and that led to their failures.
.

Your being very generous

Anderson and Jones are guided by people who maybe in MMA terms are semi knowledgable, but in anti doping terms they are borderline stupid.

 

[randomalias]

No. They'd all have tested positive for something if USADA was around day 1 and in PRIDE

That is a reasonable argument. I guess the one situation where it is directly applicable and you can rule that out though is Jones and Cormier.

 

[kalabula]

This should be a poll. But to your point: It's not who used PEDS, it's who got caught.

 

[Co-Co Zola]

In an ideal world it should. Morally it should rule them out.

HOWEVER.

The vast, vast majority of professional athletes take PEDs. It is what it is.

Let's look at perhaps the 4 most common 'G.O.A.Ts'

Anderson Silva - 2 failed tests
Jon Jones - 2 failed tests
GSP - no failed tests but has a very suspect physique, he's one of the best athletes in a sport filled with PED users
Fedor - no failed tests but competed in orgs with very weak testing or even no drug testing, he's russian, he himself beat many roided fighters so one would assume he likely took PEDs, ignoring all that...he's a professional athlete it's say to assume.

Something to consider is, if you're besting fighters whom takes PEDs, often with you being the faster, stronger fighter with better cardio. Doesn't that raise suspicions ? There's a reason people think those who take PEDs should be ruled out of discussions, the advantages are clear. Everyone knows it's cheating. The thing is, MMA isn't quite 'athletics' it's multi-faceted so it's hard to claim that you NEED PEDs to be the best guy. But I think most people with common sense will raise a few eyebrows when someone is comfortably besting PED users. They have major advantages over natural fighters.

Another matter is the fact that guys such as Jon Jones have fought many others whom have failed tests (Belfort, Chael, Bonnar and so on). Fedor fought Cro Cop, Randleman, Sylvia, Mir. Others such as Monson & Coleman were clear users. That's his wins, two of his losses were to Bigfoot & Henderson, two confirmed PED users.

So yes Jon took PEDs...but so did much of his opposition.


TLDR; failed tests do not rule people out from the discussion, it's professional sports my dudes. Everyone's taking the stuff.

 

[ocfightfan]

Well first of all GOAT discussion is purely speculative and mostly subjective. Second I would say it depends on the details of the failed drug test(s).

 

[imarayda]

The problem is that getting caught means one of three things:

1) You can't afford decent drugs (ie you make less than 20K a year). This applies to no one in the GOAT discussion.
2) Your IQ is in the 70 range (ie you can't follow the relatively simple procedures needed to beat random testing). Everyone in the GOAT discussion is actually fairly intelligent.
3) You're using such heavy dosages that you get caught despite using good drugs and following procedure.

Basically its number 3: exceptionally heavy dosages to get an advantage for every major UFC fighter, which means getting caught is an issue, because it means doing more than the people not getting caught.

People misunderstand testing, its not a test of using/not-using, its a limit test - ie the only way to test positive is using too much. The testing limits the amount you can cheat.

it doesn’t mean one of three things, plenty of things can go wrong when trying to dodge a test. And assuming that the only explanation smart rich guys get caught is because of over use is just flat out wrong.

My opinion is just that I don’t care. None of these fools are clean. So who cares. Timing your cycle is just another part of the game.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

I actually think it's almost always #2. Think about it.

USADA allows for a fighter to avoid 2 tests per 12 month period without violation, and only Nick Diaz has had more. Jones and Anderson can afford good drugs (#1) and may/may not be using heavily (#3) but are woefully under-informed about their options (skip 2 tests per 12 months) - so #2.

Even if using heavily, a knowledgeable PED user that stands to lose out on millions of dollars if caught, is going to microdose correctly and then utilize their 2 skipped tests as their fail safe.

I'm not saying that Anderson/Jones are stupid, just that their knowledge of PED procedures, testing procedures, cycling, etc. etc. is lacking. Long term, successful, doping typically is done with the help of a support group and isn't just left to the athletes. Balco, the Russians, Armstrong, etc. all had fairly sophisticated doping programs, with multiple people involved. And of course the more involved, over time, can lead to slip ups and mistakes.

IMO both Anderson and Jones are being guided by semi-knowledgeable people, but both likely didn't follow the prescribed protocol to the "T" and that led to their failures.

One thing I do wonder (calling on @dimspace) is how many Whereabout violations (skipped tests) they each had prior to failing their tests. I don't believe that info is made public but IMO it'd be telling about their knowledge/intelligence of PED use if they had no more available skips when they popped (i.e. they may have known they might pop but had no choice but to give the sample(s). Versus taking and failing a test that they could have skipped taking (i.e. they didn't think there was much risk in taking the test and decided not to skip it).

I guess its possible; I just find it hard to believe that top level guys (especially millionaires) can't get the even half-way decent instructions it takes to beat testing. Most (mainly amateur) Olympic athletes face the same or harder testing for years without getting caught - how is it they get proper procedures but rich fighters don't?

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

it doesn’t mean one of three things, plenty of things can go wrong when trying to dodge a test. And assuming that the only explanation smart rich guys get caught is because of over use is just flat out wrong.

My opinion is just that I don’t care. None of these fools are clean. So who cares. Timing your cycle is just another part of the game.

It shouldn't. Just about every Olympic athlete (many of which getting by on stipends of under 20K a year) faces as hard or harder testing than USADA for years without getting caught - the percentage caught is very small. So why are so many MMA fighters (who have more money) caught, especially top level ones? Things can go wrong, but in most cases its because either procedures weren't followed (and the procedures are pretty straightforward), or because usage is excessive.

I agree timing your cycle is part of the game, everyone knows how to do it. Which is why getting caught means overdoing it.

 

[TUFNewb]

If Anderson and Jones had just served their time and then kept their noses clean I think people would be more forgiving.

But the fact they were caught AGAIN with such egregious cheating just reinforces the idea they are dependent on the juice and have been doing it for a loooong time.

Why blow up your career and/or legacy again unless you really need it to be successful? They thought the risk must have been worth the reward I guess.

These two really do seem like frauds at this point.

 

[YeahNo]

There is no difference between the testosterone your body naturally produces and the synthetic testosterone you inject.

Ummm....except the fundamental difference that one is produced by your body and one is man made. I guess diamonds and CZ have equal value to you......smh.

 

[JoshR86]

Ummm....except the fundamental difference that one is produced by your body and one is man made. I guess diamonds and CZ have equal value to you......smh.

Does to your body since it can' tell the difference because there genetically identical

CZ and diamonds appear the same but have different properties.

The testosterone you produce and inject are exactly the same

 

[Pilo]

Depends what they pissed hot for...steroids yes, marijuana, no.

 

[Mr T_712]

I give everyone one chance but when it comes to guys like Jones and Anderson who failed twice I get rid of them from the GOAT discussion as you will see in my sig.

 

[TheAmericanGazelle]

There are fighters with comparable resumes to Jones/Silva who haven't popped for something that would indicate cheating under the rules of the organization in question.

GSP never cheated (tested positive).
Fedor never cheated (the playing field was even in PRIDE for PEDs, since everyone could use).

 

[YeahNo]

I agree, I still believe Jon Jones and Anderson Silva would be top 5 just based off their skill.

Skill is fine a good and all, but you have to be able to execute. When you get chemical help to execute (greater strength, faster healing during training) it really is cheating.

 

[Deleted member 510653]

1 violation I can forgive but 2 eliminates you imo