Do you consider Sakuraba to be a UFC champion?

[Bullitt68]

Good analysis, except Kimo fucked that up.

No, Dan Severn fucked that up. Well, technically, the UFC just decided to hold two tournaments back-to-back and confuse people. Ruas won the UFC 7 tournament, but then the UFC decided to hold the ultimate tournament full of past tournament competitors and champions, and they called it the Ultimate Ultimate. It was held at the end of 1995, and Ruas entered it along with past champions like Severn and Taktarov and veterans of prior tournaments like Keith Hackney and Tank Abbott. Ruas lost to Taktarov in the semifinals and then Severn beat Taktarov in the finals to become the Ultimate Ultimate tournament champion and the #1 contender for the Superfight title. But between Severn winning the UU95 tournament and then rematching Ken for the Superfight title at UFC 9, the UFC put on the David vs Goliath tournament for UFC 8 in Puerto Rico, and since Severn wasn't ready to compete yet - I don't remember if he got hurt in the tournament or if he just wanted extra time to prep for the rematch with Ken - the UFC decided to give the guy who nearly took out Royce a shot at taking out Ken. It made the title picture a bit messy, but nowhere near as messy as title pictures would get in later years with interim champs and BMF belts

I'm not mad at that sequence, though, because not only is Ken/Kimo I from UFC 8 a great fight with one of Ken's slickest finishes with that rolling kneebar, but it also set up that legends' match at UFC 48 where they rematched and Ken knocked Kimo out in the first round in the main event on Father's Day with Bob Shamrock in the crowd

 

[Billthebutcher]

Sak destroyed the Gracie clan & the Gracie name. Even Rickson, who I consider the greatest Gracie, was afraid to fight Sakuraba.

 

[Sukuri Aoki]

Does it even matter?

Even if Taira becomes a dominant champion, it'll be at UFC's flyweight division. Sakuraba was a natural WW fighting LHWs and HWs during MMA golden era. He'll never achieve what Sakuraba has no matter how hard he tries.

 

[Dr Fong]

No. If you do then you gotta consider Royce as 3 time champion.

Equating Sak's tournament win with Royce's wins would be revisionist history.

Pre-Superfight championship, the tournament winner was the undisputed champion of the UFC given there was no alternative. That's how the concept of a 'champion' was decided - note that it's literally in the name of the promotion. The winner of UFC 1-4 was the winnner of the Ultimate Fighting Championship and therefore recognised as 'champion'.

But once it was firmly established that there was a champion who held a belt, clearly a tournament champion was not at all undisputed and tournaments like the one Sak won were not taken very seriously.

Any attempts to exclude Royce (and, yes, Steve Jennum) from being recognised as 'champions' and to include random tournament winners aren't just revisionist semantics, they aren't logical or good faith semantics. You may as well try to claim TUF winners were equal champions - the actual context matters.

 

[Lycandroid]

Yes people don't realize there is more than one tier of champion undisputed interim tournament bmf

 

[Marko Polo]

Definitely

 

[Chomsky Honk]

I would not. He was a tournament winner, which is distinct from a UFC Champ.

 

[Ube]

He’s the only real BMF champ imo

 

[Dr. Rose]

No, Dan Severn fucked that up. Well, technically, the UFC just decided to hold two tournaments back-to-back and confuse people. Ruas won the UFC 7 tournament, but then the UFC decided to hold the ultimate tournament full of past tournament competitors and champions, and they called it the Ultimate Ultimate. It was held at the end of 1995, and Ruas entered it along with past champions like Severn and Taktarov and veterans of prior tournaments like Keith Hackney and Tank Abbott. Ruas lost to Taktarov in the semifinals and then Severn beat Taktarov in the finals to become the Ultimate Ultimate tournament champion and the #1 contender for the Superfight title. But between Severn winning the UU95 tournament and then rematching Ken for the Superfight title at UFC 9, the UFC put on the David vs Goliath tournament for UFC 8 in Puerto Rico, and since Severn wasn't ready to compete yet - I don't remember if he got hurt in the tournament or if he just wanted extra time to prep for the rematch with Ken - the UFC decided to give the guy who nearly took out Royce a shot at taking out Ken. It made the title picture a bit messy, but nowhere near as messy as title pictures would get in later years with interim champs and BMF belts

I'm not mad at that sequence, though, because not only is Ken/Kimo I from UFC 8 a great fight with one of Ken's slickest finishes with that rolling kneebar, but it also set up that legends' match at UFC 48 where they rematched and Ken knocked Kimo out in the first round in the main event on Father's Day with Bob Shamrock in the crowd

Fair enough. I should have worded that differently. My point was more that Kimo fucked up the ordering, not that someone was not more responsible.

 

[Trabaho]

Saku fought in the UFC ? I don't think so

 

[Dorkman]

No not a traditional title holder anyways. Tournaments are nice and all, but a lot can happen in the run of a tournament and paths to the finals are never equal. But he doesn't need a title reign to be the legend he is. Sakus legacy has transcended beyond what a title reign can give you alone.

 

[Dorkman]

Saku fought in the UFC ? I don't think so

He did yes. On the ufc Japan card ages ago before his pride run

 

[Bullitt68]

Fair enough. I should have worded that differently. My point was more that Kimo fucked up the ordering, not that someone was not more responsible.

I know. I just took the opportunity to nerd out and talk about the old school

 

[AfroBanana]

Nope. There were HW and LHW championship fights the same night. One-night tournaments were on their way out, but the UFC held on to them because that's what they were known for originally. The original one-night tournaments had 8 fighters plus alternate fights and no other matches.

It was a HW tournament, but clearly not for the championship belt.

View attachment 1048200

Also he fought the same fighter twice because Tank left the tournament. He was 100% not a UFC champion he won a meh tourney. Dude won a 4 man tournament where he faced the guy he beat in the finals. Was a shit show.

 

[10000yearsold]

I absolutely never think about it. You?

 

[mkt]

Also he fought the same fighter twice because Tank left the tournament. He was 100% not a UFC champion he won a meh tourney. Dude won a 4 man tournament where he faced the guy he beat in the finals. Was a shit show.

And their first fight was 90 seconds before it was prematurely stopped. Maybe if he had two 15-minute wars it would be different.

None of this is Sakuraba's fault, and I guess by a very strict definition he was a "champion" of a small 4-man tournament, but it wasn't the same as early 8-men tournaments and no belts were on the line.

 

[Killer Kadoogan]

ufc tournament champions are still UFC champions, any other opinion that differs is le retarded.

 

[AfroBanana]

And their first fight was 90 seconds before it was prematurely stopped. Maybe if he had two 15-minute wars it would be different.

None of this is Sakuraba's fault, and I guess by a very strict definition he was a "champion" of a small 4-man tournament, but it wasn't the same as early 8-men tournaments and no belts were on the line.

Yep can’t really claim someone is a champion fighting in a mini tournament with little significance while the title is being contested by a champion and a contender of significance. The first fight was an NC. Nobody thinks of Marcus Silveira as a championship level win in a tournament.

 

[Bullitt68]

And their first fight was 90 seconds before it was prematurely stopped. Maybe if he had two 15-minute wars it would be different.

None of this is Sakuraba's fault, and I guess by a very strict definition he was a "champion" of a small 4-man tournament, but it wasn't the same as early 8-men tournaments and no belts were on the line.

Yep can’t really claim someone is a champion fighting in a mini tournament with little significance while the title is being contested by a champion and a contender of significance. The first fight was an NC. Nobody thinks of Marcus Silveira as a championship level win in a tournament.

This is such a bizarre conversation. The definition isn't "strict," it's the definition. This isn't about quibbling over caliber of fighter, value of this or that title, etc. It's "Do you consider Sakuraba to be a UFC champion?" The answer is yes because he was a UFC champion. Remember UFC 3? Royce withdrew after the Kimo fight, Ken withdrew after hearing that Royce withdrew, and the finals ended up being Harold Howard fighting the alternate Steve Jennum, who ended up beating Howard and becoming the UFC 3 tournament champion. He wasn't even in the tournament proper, but he ended up there and he won when he got there. How would you answer the question "Do you consider Steve Jennum to be a UFC champion?" How about more modern times? Andrei Arlovski never fought Frank Mir and spent a long time as the Interim UFC HW champ before the UFC finally decided after Mir's long absence due to injury to make him the official HW champion. How would you answer the thread "Do you consider Arlovski to be a UFC champion?" How about Nogueira defeating Tim Sylvia after Randy started holding out to fight Fedor and becoming the Interim HW champ? He never fought Randy for the belt and then Mir beat Nogueira and eventually went on to fight a title unification bout against Brock, but Nogueira did beat Sylvia with the interim title on the line. How would you answer "Do you consider Nogueira to be a UFC champion?"

There are all sorts of nuances and evaluations, all sorts of historical context factoids and quibbles, and we can rank caliber of opponent, quality of division, etc., but at the end of the day, if you win a championship then you are by definition a champion. You're not kind of a champion, you're not half a champion. The NBA championship winning Houston Rockets aren't not champions just because Michael Jordan wasn't on the Bulls those years. This isn't how facts work. We don't get to make up our own personal realities. Kazushi Sakuraba won the UFC Ultimate Japan HW tournament. He was the UFC Ultimate Japan Heavyweight tournament champion. Kazushi Sakuraba is a UFC champion. The end.

 

[Bork Neslar]

No.