Elections DNC today in Chicago

[Rational Poster]

No, they are living paycheck to paycheck and spending twice as much when their wages haven't gone up and they rent crappy housing to not die in the street. What a bizarre point that you are trying to make.

Has there ever been a period in US history where the majority of people didn't live paycheck to paycheck?

 

[brothir]

You ever have an ignorant American who tells you how things are going in your country despite not knowing what they are talking about?

The economic conditions of many Western countries are somewhat shared, with several similarities between the well-performing ones. America is not some singularity of suffering.

 

[Rational Poster]

@Rob Battisti and you want to keep it simple, we can do that too.,

 

[Rob Battisti]

Wage growth has surpassed inflation for over a year now and GDP growth has surpassed previous projections based on the 2019 figures. If today's economy is so horrible then Trump economy with higher unemployment and lower growth rates and stock values must've been even worse.

It’s almost as if I didn’t mentioned Trump at all..

Wage growth has surpassed inflation for over a year now. We have record lows in unemployment compared with 6.6% unemployment in 1960. The US GDP now is obviously far bigger now so comparing the two is very silly of you.

1962-1965.

One year it has surpassed? How about the last 4?

 

[Jack V Savage]

It’s almost as if I didn’t mentioned Trump at all..

1962-1965.

One year it has surpassed? How about the last 4?

Most of them too.

Another thing to note is that we live in a period of unusual currency stability. What America used to have was extreme short-term instability but going in both directions, leading to long-term stability. What we have now is very low short-term instability, but almost always in the same direction so it compounds. But people live in the short term so the short-term stability matters more (no one keeps cash under their mattress for decades).

 

[Jack V Savage]

We also should throw out the pandemic years for wage comparisons because there are serious issues with composition effects. A huge number of low-wage workers lost their jobs, driving up the median misleadingly, and then a huge number of low-wage workers got new jobs, driving the median down misleadingly.

 

[Limbo Pete]

Sure, it's an issue. It's stupid and fucked up. But is it gaslighting? I think it's fair to say if I get in a basket and above me is a fully inflated balloon and we get 2 feet off the ground before landing again, you could fairly call that going ballooning, perhaps, but if the balloon lies deflated and limp next to the basked and you step in, you're just getting in a basket. That's not ballooning, is it?

And that bullshit was as deflated and limp as it gets, IMO.

I love ya buddy, but you need an old man nap imo lol

 

[Rob Battisti]

This is my issue.

If you want to say, “you know what? We really recovered well. Inflation was really hard and wages struggled to keep up. We know that it was dicey for awhile, but we made it through. Things are looking better. Wage growth is finally beating inflation, but obviously not over a multiyear period. We should look at todays economy as a success but we have a long was to go in making things more affordable.”

I’d agree with you.

What I don’t agree with and what is gaslighting is “this is the greatest economic period in American history and you’re an idiot if you suggest otherwise.”

 

[Islam Imamate]

It’s almost as if I didn’t mentioned Trump at all..

I think its fair to point that out though since many people unfavorably compare the Biden economy to the Trump economy which all things considered makes for the best comparison.

1962-1965.

One year it has surpassed? How about the last 4?

Do you really think Americans were richer in 1962? You hand waive away record highs in the stock market and business formation and record lows in unemployment to fixate on how when America was way poorer we had higher GDP growth.

Oh and btw unemployment today is lower in all those years except 1965 so on that metric the Biden economy is comparable. Average home size in the 1960s was ~1200 sqft, a little over half what it is today. Real median family income was ~$53k compared to ~$92k today. I don't think one can really make the case that the US economy was stronger when we had a smaller economy, made less money, and owned fewer things of lower value.

 

[Islam Imamate]

He's pulling another fast one. It would be good if 1960s-sized homes were more available, but that doesn't mean we'd be richer if the average person could only afford that.

Yeah of course but naturally he has to dodge the substance of my post. You'd think they'd have some self reflection when they find out that the apparent golden ages of American history saw Americans living in houses about half the size they do now and that maybe families having access to units between 900-1200 sqft isn't such a bad thing after all.

 

[brothir]

This is my issue.

If you want to say, “you know what? We really recovered well. Inflation was really hard and wages struggled to keep up. We know that it was dicey for awhile, but we made it through. Things are looking better. Wage growth is finally beating inflation, but obviously not over a multiyear period. We should look at todays economy as a success but we have a long was to go in making things more affordable.”

I’d agree with you.

What I don’t agree with and what is gaslighting is “this is the greatest economic period in American history and you’re an idiot if you suggest otherwise.”

You should really stop accusing people of lying. Gaslighting is adjusting an environmental variable while feigning ignorance so you can drive someone insane. Claiming that this is generally the best time to be a human in an economically well-performing nation, of which there are several, is not that. That can actually just be a genuinely held opinion. If you want to argue against that, you'll need numbers.

 

[Rob Battisti]

I think its fair to point that out though since many people unfavorably compare the Biden economy to the Trump economy which all things considered makes for the best comparison.

Do you really think Americans were richer in 1962? You hand waive away record highs in the stock market and business formation and record lows in unemployment to fixate on how when America was way poorer we had higher GDP growth.

Oh and btw unemployment today is lower in all those years except 1965 so on that metric the Biden economy is comparable. Average home size in the 1960s was ~1200 sqft, a little over half what it is today. Real median family income was ~$53k compared to ~$92k today. I don't think one can really make the case that the US economy was stronger when we had a smaller economy, made less money, and owned fewer things of lower value.

are you arguing that we live in the greatest age of abundance or the greatest economy?

 

[Rob Battisti]

Let’s at least agree on the top 3 economic factors that we’re working off here.

For me:

GDP growth
Wage Growth minus Inflation
Unemployment

For you:

Stock Market
Housing Size
Unemployment


I simply think my indicators are better.

 

[brothir]

Let’s at least agree on the top 3 economic factors that we’re working off here.

For me:

GDP growth
Wage Growth minus Inflation
Unemployment

For you:

Stock Market
Housing Size
Unemployment


I simply think my indicators are better.

Both GDP and wage growth have nominal and real values, and there is no sense in focusing on the nominal value. Hence, no one sensible is. There's no one here saying that you're wrong to highlight the real values, because the nominal ones are where it's at. Moreover, low unemployment combined with GDP growth usually drive up wages.

The thing about the size of dwelling is to highlight that it's easy to make apples and oranges comparisons.

 

[Islam Imamate]

This is my issue.

If you want to say, “you know what? We really recovered well. Inflation was really hard and wages struggled to keep up. We know that it was dicey for awhile, but we made it through. Things are looking better. Wage growth is finally beating inflation, but obviously not over a multiyear period. We should look at todays economy as a success but we have a long was to go in making things more affordable.”

I’d agree with you.

What I don’t agree with and what is gaslighting is “this is the greatest economic period in American history and you’re an idiot if you suggest otherwise.”

And my issue is that you just assert things and then act incredulous when people disagree with you. I've pointed out record highs in the stock market and businesses formation as well as record lows in unemployment not to mention wage growth has surpassed inflation for over a year now. Setting aside whether its the GOAT when compared to all of human history according to whatever variety of criteria one might use, clearly we have a strong economy right now right?

are you arguing that we live in the greatest age of abundance or the greatest economy?

Those two things are correlated aren't they? We can't have an age of abundance if we don't have a strong economy right?

I also think you're making a point to address the most exaggerated version of the argument. The "greatest" economy is subjective and could be measured in relative terms. Right after WWII the US accounted for 50% of global GDP so you could argue that was the "greatest" economy in US history but I would disagree that just because everyone else was poorer that we were better off. So I wouldn't say that we have the "greatest" economy purely because its partly subjective and someone might make the argument I just did there.

I think what is clear is that the Biden economy is uniquely strong compared to our peers as well as recent American history. Largely under Biden it has much more effectively weathered the one-two inflation punch of COVID and the Ukraine war. People like you are invested in discrediting Biden so you will ignore all the indicators that suggest a strong economy to harp on inflation or argue that Americans in the 1960s were better off when they had smaller homes and spent more on groceries.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Let’s at least agree on the top 3 economic factors that we’re working off here.

For me:

GDP growth
Wage Growth minus Inflation
Unemployment

For you:

Stock Market
Housing Size
Unemployment


I simply think my indicators are better.

I also mentioned small business formation and overall GDP. And as I said wage growth has surpassed inflation for over a year now so I think even on that metric the Biden economy scores well enough.

Acting like America had a stronger economy when we were poorer is just insane to me, makes no sense. And again let's set aside the 1950 and 1960s for a second since comparing them is difficult. Based on our record lows in unemployment and record highs in the stock market and business formation we have a strong economy right?

 

[Andy Capp]

I love ya buddy, but you need an old man nap imo lol

That's not an argument

 

[Jack V Savage]

This is my issue.

If you want to say, “you know what? We really recovered well. Inflation was really hard and wages struggled to keep up. We know that it was dicey for awhile, but we made it through. Things are looking better. Wage growth is finally beating inflation, but obviously not over a multiyear period. We should look at todays economy as a success but we have a long was to go in making things more affordable.”

I’d agree with you.

What I don’t agree with and what is gaslighting is “this is the greatest economic period in American history and you’re an idiot if you suggest otherwise.”

If you were just honest and said, "yeah, the economy is better than ever, but the long-term trajectory is up, and it doesn't *necessarily* validate recent economic policy," I don't think anyone would disagree. But what I don't agree with is gaslighting and saying "the economy was somehow actually better in the 1960s, and you're gaslighting if you say that it's better to have high wages and low unemployment."

I think its fair to point that out though since many people unfavorably compare the Biden economy to the Trump economy which all things considered makes for the best comparison.

Do you really think Americans were richer in 1962? You hand waive away record highs in the stock market and business formation and record lows in unemployment to fixate on how when America was way poorer we had higher GDP growth.

Oh and btw unemployment today is lower in all those years except 1965 so on that metric the Biden economy is comparable. Average home size in the 1960s was ~1200 sqft, a little over half what it is today. Real median family income was ~$53k compared to ~$92k today. I don't think one can really make the case that the US economy was stronger when we had a smaller economy, made less money, and owned fewer things of lower value.

That chart is even better for the case (than the numbers I looked up earlier), and note that we've seen improvement since 2022.

 

[Rob Battisti]

I also mentioned small business formation and overall GDP. And as I said wage growth has surpassed inflation for over a year now so I think even on that metric the Biden economy scores well enough.

Acting like America had a stronger economy when we were poorer is just insane to me, makes no sense. And again let's set aside the 1950 and 1960s for a second since comparing them is difficult. Based on our record lows in unemployment and record highs in the stock market and business formation we have a strong economy right?

I also mentioned small business formation and overall GDP. And as I said wage growth has surpassed inflation for over a year now so I think even on that metric the Biden economy scores well enough.

Acting like America had a stronger economy when we were poorer is just insane to me, makes no sense. And again let's set aside the 1950 and 1960s for a second since comparing them is difficult. Based on our record lows in unemployment and record highs in the stock market and business formation we have a strong economy right?

I didn’t say we didn’t have a strong economy. I said it’s not the “greatest economic period in American history”.

I even just said in my previous post, we should give credit for a good recovery and coming out of Covid strong. However, I think it’s frustrating to ignore the previous years of high inflation by saying that we’ve turned the corner now so none of that matters.

As I also said, my three indicators of a strong economy are:

GDP growth
Wage Growth minus Infaltion
Unemployment

With those metrics, 1962-1965 was a greater economic period.

For 2021-2024 the biggest knock is low GDP and Wage Growth Minus Inflation

2021: -2.5%
2022: -1.4%
2023: 1.1%
2024: 1.1%

That’s still a net negative for wage growth versus inflation.

I’m not arguing that we don’t have more now or that things aren’t better now. I’m arguing that the economic period of 1962-1965 was better than today.

Unemployment is better now 4% versus 5.2%. 5.2% is still stellar.

How about personal debt?

Today it’s about 2x wages which is double 1962.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I didn’t say we didn’t have a strong economy. I said it’s not the “greatest economic period in American history”.

So again setting aside the hyperbole you do agree that the economy is currently strong?

I even just said in my previous post, we should give credit for a good recovery and coming out of Covid strong. However, I think it’s frustrating to ignore the previous years of high inflation by saying that we’ve turned the corner now so none of that matters.

We have turned the corner on inflation and the people who complain about it never acknowledge the strong indicators like unemployment, stock values, business formation etc.

As I also said, my three indicators of a strong economy are:

GDP growth
Wage Growth minus Infaltion
Unemployment

With those metrics, 1962-1965 was a greater economic period.

For 2021-2024 the biggest knock is low GDP and Wage Growth Minus Inflation

2021: -2.5%
2022: -1.4%
2023: 1.1%
2024: 1.1%

That’s still a net negative for wage growth versus inflation.

I’m not arguing that we don’t have more now or that things aren’t better now. I’m arguing that the economic period of 1962-1965 was better than today.

You're arguing that when Americans were poorer and owned fewer things the economy was better, to me that makes no sense. Its like saying Guyana has a stronger economy than the US because its projected to grow over 30% this year, no reasonable person would argue that. And like I said the unemployment rate of the last few years is roughly comparable if not lower in some years when compared to the period you're looking at.

Setting aside the subjective GOAT discussion you're harping here no reasonable person can deny that the economy is very strong right now based on key indicators and compared to our peers.