Elections DNC today in Chicago

[Rob Battisti]

The 2013 period you're referring to was preceded by a recession and a sluggish recovery, the recovery from the pandemic recession was far faster and growth has exceeded the projections based on that period you're referring to. I think there's a good argument that today's economy is overall significantly stronger but at worst its about the same. People can point to inflation but we also have record lows in unemployment and record highs in the stock market and I'd probably weight that more heavily.

One of the biggest drags on the current economy is cost of living and specifically housing costs but that's due to about a decade of underbuilding due to onerous local zoning laws which ironically many of the people who complain about the Biden economy actively support.

The argument isn’t “this has been a remarkable recovery” the argument is “this is the greatest economy in American history.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Jumping in here but early 2000s and 2013ish to 2019 stand out as particularly well

In what sense? Real wages way higher now, prime age employment way higher now, asset values up. You have to pick a year to do a precise comparison, but I don't think any year in that period fits, especially the earlier one.

 

[Jack V Savage]

The argument isn’t “this has been a remarkable recovery” the argument is “this is the greatest economy in American history.

I notice you ducked the question. The problem is that any time you pick will be indefensible on the merits, but you can make personal attacks on people who are honest and avoid being put in that position. Scummy move, but not surprising.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I didn't change any topic. I just corrected Holmes using the usual GOP talking point on the attempted insurrection. "Durr, liberals were saying that the Shaman was going to be dictator." No. The attack on the Capitol was bad on its own, but it was a part of a much bigger assault on our freedoms as Americans. No matter how often the issue gets discussed, it doesn't sink in because these guys aren't thinking.

I wasn't following the conversation too closely and that detail wasn't that relevant but now that I go back through the conversation I can see that Jan 6th was indeed the topic.

Either way you can't expect someone like Mr.Holmes to ever confront the gravity of something like Jan 6th because it'd force them to take a stand against MAGA which they lack the spine to do.

The argument isn’t “this has been a remarkable recovery” the argument is “this is the greatest economy in American history.

You don't think record highs in the stock market and record lows in unemployment are good evidence of a uniquely strong economy? We've also seen record highs in small business formation during Biden's term.

Data from the US Census Bureau shows a record-breaking 5,481,437 new businesses were started in 2023. The onset of the pandemic in 2020 has driven a surge in new business creation, so the number of new businesses is trending up.

On average, there are 4.7 million businesses started every year. That average is from the past five years of business formation data in the United States. According to data from the US Census Bureau, the nearly 5.5 million businesses started in 2023 is the highest year on record, beating out the previous record of 5,380,477 new businesses started in 2021.

The total number of businesses started in 2023 also represents a 56.7% increase from the number of new businesses in 2019.

 

[sanguinius]

It takes a special kind of liar/political hack to pretend the economy is doing better than ever when our money can't buy basic groceries.

 

[Andy Capp]

You don't need them to believe it. The act of deliberate minimization is the issue

Sure, it's an issue. It's stupid and fucked up. But is it gaslighting? I think it's fair to say if I get in a basket and above me is a fully inflated balloon and we get 2 feet off the ground before landing again, you could fairly call that going ballooning, perhaps, but if the balloon lies deflated and limp next to the basked and you step in, you're just getting in a basket. That's not ballooning, is it?

And that bullshit was as deflated and limp as it gets, IMO.

 

[Andy Capp]

It takes a special kind of liar/political hack to pretend the economy is doing better than ever when our money can't buy basic groceries.

It takes a special kind of stupid to fail to understand some people may have trouble even while a great many prosper.

 

[Andy Capp]

Deleted

 

[Rob Battisti]

I wasn't following the conversation too closely and that detail wasn't that relevant but now that I go back through the conversation I can see that Jan 6th was indeed the topic.

Either way you can't expect someone like Mr.Holmes to ever confront the gravity of something like Jan 6th because it'd force them to take a stand against MAGA which they lack the spine to do.

You don't think record highs in the stock market and record lows in unemployment are good evidence of a uniquely strong economy? We've also seen record highs in small business formation during Biden's term.

“Greatest in American history”

No. This is not the greatest economic period in American history.

The stock market will always go up due to monetary inflation.

Going by 4 year periods:

1962-1965 was incredible with 23% GDP growth.

Low unemployment, low inflation and rising wages.

That for me is probably the best period.

You could also argue 1950-1953, but the argument there would be the Korean War bolstering the period.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Averaging 2% growth in a period with 6.5-7% inflation with record debt(personal and federal) and an upside down housing market for buyers isn’t the “greatest economy in American history”.

 

[brothir]

It takes a special kind of liar/political hack to pretend the economy is doing better than ever when our money can't buy basic groceries.

Your money can actually buy basic groceries. The government has not issued a universal negation of the currency in the face of purchasing eggs et al.

 

[brothir]

Averaging 2% growth in a period with 6.5-7% inflation with record debt(personal and federal) and an upside down housing market for buyers isn’t the “greatest economy in American history”.

What time period are you specifically talking about, and what are you basing those numbers on?

 

[Rob Battisti]

Yeah, looking into it even more — I’d put my money on the best 4 years being 1962-1965.

Low inflation
Good wage growth
Great GDP growth
Affordability in housing
Economic stability

 

[Jack V Savage]

“Greatest in American history”

No. This is not the greatest economic period in American history.

The stock market will always go up due to monetary inflation.

Going by 4 year periods:

1962-1965 was incredible with 23% GDP growth.

Low unemployment and rising wages.

That for me is probably the best period.

You could also argue 1950-1953, but the argument there would be the Korean War bolstering the period.

The rate of change in the current period isn't the best ever, but America was *much* poorer than it is now in the periods you're talking about. It's an absurd comparison. Median family income is around $35K more today than it was in 1965 in constant (2024) dollars, and that actually way understates the improvement (family size is smaller, technical improvement isn't properly accounted for, leisure, etc.).

 

[sanguinius]

Your money can actually buy basic groceries. The government has not issued a universal negation of the currency in the face of purchasing eggs et al.

Oh, my bad, you're right. Dollars have the same purchasing power as they always have. Thank you for your pointless off-base snark.

 

[Jar of Flies]

Not sure how Walz stays on the ticket after this one. Disgusting.

 

[brothir]

Oh, my bad, you're right. Dollars have the same purchasing power as they always have. Thank you for your pointless off-base snark.

The nominal value of a currency always decreases, of course. The real value of the financial situation of humans using them generally increases, which is what matters. The average job provides way more value now compared to the past, and meaningfully more than even 5-6 years ago.

 

[Islam Imamate]

“Greatest in American history”

No. This is not the greatest economic period in American history.

The stock market will always go up due to monetary inflation.

That definitely doesn't sound right at all, the stock market does not always go up and indeed sometimes it crashes. I don't think you can just hand waive away the fact that we have record highs in the stock market nor should you ignore that we have record lows in unemployment. I would imagine those are two key indicators as to the health of an economy. On top of that the wage growth for the bottom quartile was the highest so its particularly strong for the working class.

Going by 4 year periods:

1962-1965 was incredible with 23% GDP growth.

Low unemployment and rising wages.

That for me is probably the best period.

You could also argue 1950-1953, but the argument there would be the Korean War bolstering the period.

Well yes when the US was poorer we could grow a lot faster. Guyana is project to grow ~30% this year but I don't think any reasonable person can say they have a stronger economy.

In fact IIRC the average home size in the 50s was less than a 1000sqft which I'd bet if I advocated for homes that size today you'd say I was trying to get Americans to live in pods.

 

[Rational Poster]

The rate of change in the current period isn't the best ever, but America was *much* poorer than it is now in the periods you're talking about. It's an absurd comparison. Median family income is around $35K more today than it was in 1965 in constant (2024) dollars, and that actually way understates the improvement (family size is smaller, technical improvement isn't properly accounted for, leisure, etc.).

This is something inflation freaks like Rob don't ever seem to calculate into their thinking.

Yes the dollar was worth more as an individual unit in previous decades, but you made a lot less of them. And not just your average joe, but literally everyone. There hasn't been a period of runaway inflation where compensation has significantly lagged behind it.

People earn dollars and spend them in real time before inflation impacts their value. None of these people are going to live to 200 years and even if they did they wouldn't be dumb enough to just keep their cash under the mattress depreciating the whole time.

 

[sanguinius]

The nominal value of a currency always decreases, of course. The real value of the financial situation of humans using them generally increases, which is what matters. The average job provides way more value now compared to the past, and meaningfully more than even 5-6 years ago.

Bold faced lie. Are you even American?