International Disunited Kingdom: The Renewed Call For Scottish Independence, Part 2.

[Arkain2K]

 

[Barteh]

Scotland doesn't want to be independent. They want to be the EU's bitch instead of the UK's bitch.

 

[Low Test With da Best]

Anyone know why Johnson said this?

 

[Billy no mates]

Anyone know why Johnson said this?

Because he could scarcely be less popular north of the border and its a non issue south of it so he doesn't feel the need to even pretend he cares .

 

[Low Test With da Best]

Because he could scarcely be less popular north of the border and its a non issue south of it so he doesn't feel the need to even pretend he cares .

Interdasting. A brexit supporting leader not supporting the referendum? I'm not super informed on Brexit and less so on the Scottish referendum but this strikes me as a little fucky

 

[Billy no mates]

Interdasting. A brexit supporting leader not supporting the referendum? I'm not super informed on Brexit and less so on the Scottish referendum but this strikes me as a little fucky

I suppose his reasoning will be they had a vote on being part of the UK , then the UK had a vote on being part of the EU .

 

[MayhemMonkey]

I suppose his reasoning will be they had a vote on being part of the UK , then the UK had a vote on being part of the EU .

and our reasoning is that shit has changed... we want another vote

 

[Billy no mates]

and our reasoning is that shit has changed... we want another vote

Have you been mis-sold a referendum ? , if so just ring 0845 646365 with details of your vote provider and we'll do the rest you could be owed ££££££'s......

 

[PrinceOfPain]

I’ve read it. Still can’t see where it states that the UK is a country.

It's in the first sentence.

 

[Gl0kta]

I suppose his reasoning will be they had a vote on being part of the UK , then the UK had a vote on being part of the EU .

Hate the junk that's used to justify a position like the "will of the people".

The referendum was just a tool and those that got what they want out of it will defend it to the death as a shining beacon of democracy that must be upheld while at the same time vehemently denying any other vote that may go against them.

Incidentally hope that if there is a 2nd Scottish referendum they atleast partially fix the system and put it on a supermajority. Greater then 50% of the electorate has a ring to it.

 

[Billy no mates]

Hate the junk that's used to justify a position like the "will of the people".

The referendum was just a tool and those that got what they want out of it will defend it to the death as a shining beacon of democracy that must be upheld while at the same time vehemently denying any other vote that may go against them.

Incidentally hope that if there is a 2nd Scottish referendum they atleast partially fix the system and put it on a supermajority. Greater then 50% of the electorate has a ring to it.

I hope we never ever have another referendum .

 

[Islam Imamate]

I hope they get it. Not that I know much of the details and whether or not it'd be good for them, I just want to see the UK come crashing down around the ears of Brexiteers.

 

[Gregolian]

Will I be able to get single malt's easier if this happens?

 

[The Merchant]

Scotland's deficit seven times higher than UK as a whole last year
By Severin Carrell | Aug 21, 2019

​

Scotland ran a deficit seven times higher than the UK as a whole last year, despite again cutting its overspend on public services.

The latest Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (Gers) figures showed there was a record gap of nearly £2,000 per person between how much was spent on public services and debt repayment, and total tax revenues for 2018-19.

Scotland’s notional deficit stood at £12.6bn or 7% of GDP, including North Sea oil revenues, compared with the UK’s total £23.5bn deficit, which includes Scotland’s figure. The UK deficit is equivalent to 1.1% of its GDP.

Total state spending in Scotland was £1,661 higher per person than the UK average at £75.3bn, while tax receipts were £307 less per head than the UK average, at £62.7bn. Excluding oil revenues, the deficit exceeded £14bn, equal to 22.5% of tax revenues.

Opposition parties said the data blew a hole in the financial case for leaving the UK. But Derek Mackay, the Scottish finance secretary, said it proved independence was needed to allow Scotland to control its own economic policies.

“I recognise that the notional deficit isn’t where we would want it to be,” Mackay said, but argued that Gers showed onshore tax income, excluding oil revenues, was up 5.1%, while employment was at record levels. “Revenues are growing faster than expenditure,” he added.

Mackay confirmed that the Gers data, which covers all UK and Scottish government spending in Scotland and a share of pan-UK spending on areas such as defence, overseas aid and debt reduction, was an accurate assessment of the country’s fiscal position last year.

He said they were irrelevant to an independent Scotland’s future finances, however. “I do think these figures speak to the truth, speak to the fact, that Scotland would be better off as an independent country than we are as part of the UK,” he said.

He said current tax revenues now paid for all Scotland’s devolved services, including social care. Total state spending included about £6.5bn on servicing the UK’s debt repayments and defence costs including Trident.

The Scottish National party wants Trident scrapped and Mackay confirmed that his government would refuse to repay its share of UK debt after independence. He said the SNP would instead offer “solidarity payments” to cover its share of historic debts, but he admitted he did not know whether the UK government would agree to that arrangement.

Mackay suggested the SNP would not try to cut public spending after independence but would instead focus on economic growth to cut the revenue gap. However, he was unable to say how quickly GDP would need to grow to avoid spending cuts.

Ruth Davidson, the Scottish Tory leader, was scathing about Mackay’s claims that Scotland should be pleased it was cutting its deficit faster than the UK. The Gers report said Scotland’s fiscal gap had consistently been 7% higher than the UK’s over the last five years.

She said Scotland’s notional deficit was the highest in the EU. Cyprus had the next nearest, at 4.8%, while Romania’s was at 3% and France at 2.5%. EU membership rules require member states to have a budget deficit below 3%. “For the SNP to pretend a 7% deficit is not an issue is criminally negligent,” she tweeted.

Unlike previous years, Nicola Sturgeon, the first minister and SNP leader, chose not to meet the media to discuss the Gers figures. Instead she campaigned for the third time in Shetland in the byelection to replace the Lib Dem MSP Tavish Scott, who stood down in June.

Willie Rennie, the Scottish Liberal Democrat leader, accused Sturgeon of dodging difficult questions by refusing to host the Gers press conference. He said this data showed independence would chaos economic chaos. “Five years ago, the vast majority of people in Shetland voted to avoid this eye-watering deficit by rejecting the SNP’s independence campaign,” and they should reject the SNP in the byelection too, he said.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...8-deficit-higher-than-uk-as-a-whole-last-year

I'd wish we could have academic links rather than news media links especially when discussing economics. Scotland for instance in the figures have to pay for the nukes etc and other spending which just wouldn't exist if we became independent.

The economy and the numbers is really complex.

Here's City of London professor and tax expert on it.

The GERS data is ludicrous: Scotland does not generate 60% of the UK’s net fiscal deficit

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/about/

 

[The Merchant]

There are different variances of “the left”.

There are many on that side that will say Scotland is destroying the world with pumping oil, and selling it.

No more fossil fuels. Only green. Scotland’s major revenue stream no longer exists

They're finding and opening up the entire west coast of scotland, found a massive oil field. Although the announcment of that was delayed by David Cameron (hard to say for cewrtain it was him) till after the referendum.

Although the SNP is sort of being led by what i would call "progressive" American left wing identity politics, as opposed to old school left of Alex salmond, anti-NATO, Anti-war, Anti Nukes, privitation of services etc.

It's people from across the spectrum though, the SNP will hardly survive past independence as once that's achieved everyone can go back to voting for other issues rather than trying to get away from Westminster anymore.

 

[The Merchant]

That source doesn’t say it’s a country

It was 1707 not 1801. Union was created in 1707. The crowns had already been unified after Elizabeth 1 and James the 6th of Scotland became James the 1st of England.

In between Scotland tried to get into the empire business and launched the "Darien Scheme" and it failed losing a lot of nobles wealth so they got "bought and sold for English gold" (The Bard Rabbie Burns words) and they joined parliaments amongst much riots etc in 1707 , cleared out all the rouble makers in the highland clearances and then defeated the Stuart army of Bonny prince Charlie at culloden in 1746 and ended the uprising.

 

[The Merchant]

Anyone know why Johnson said this?

To gain votes, the same reason any politician says something.

"denying" the jocks a vote will go down great in his core, and wont lose him any votes as hardly any one in Scotland votes Tory anyway.

I see you point out the hypocrisy of that later, and yeah it is a bit fucky.

 

[The Merchant]

That source doesn’t say it’s a country

They're not a country it's a political Union of 2 countries a principality and a province although i guess it's all semantics.

 

[Arkain2K]

SNP bid to impose target to remove Trident from the Clyde after indyref2
By Kathleen Nutt

The removal of nuclear weapons from the Clyde is expected to be a key ambition for an independent Scotland​

TRIDENT should be removed from the Clyde within “three or four years” of Scotland voting for independence, SNP policy chiefs are to be told by the party’s influential CND group. It is the first time a specific timescale has been suggested by the internal body.

The removal of nuclear weapons from the Clyde is expected to be a key ambition for an independent Scotland, with many Scots giving the removal of nuclear weapons the reason why they back independence.

However, until now no definite deadline for the process to be complete has been discussed by the SNP.

At its spring conference this year party members voted for a resolution to agree the process should be done “speedily”.

But yesterday Bill Ramsay, convener of the SNP’s influential CND group, told the Sunday National: “From the day of a Yes vote, it should be a three or four year period.

‘‘We will be making a presentation to the SNP’s policy committee in due course and will be putting this timescale to them.”

He said discussions to remove Trident should begin with the UK Government in the weeks after the successful independence referendum and during the “year or two” mark following the vote during which preparations would take place for Scotland to become a sovereign state.

Formal negotiations on removing Trident would not start until the start of the first independent Scottish Government, he added.

Last week Trevor Royle, a respected military historian and author, suggested that following independence the Scottish Government could lease out Faslane to Nato to raise £1.1 billion a year providing funding for schools and hospitals and other public services.

Royle, a fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, pointed to the precedent of Iceland which leased out its airbase to Nato for five decades after it became independent.

He added: “I am opposed to nuclear weapons on grounds of cost, morality and lack of effectiveness, but an independent Scotland will not be so awash with cash that it can ignore an asset such as Faslane, which could attract a rental of £1.1bn a year.”

Ramsay rejected the proposal. “It is perfectly understandable that the UK Government would want to lease the base. But one would assume this would not be acceptable to the Scottish Government to do so. The Scottish National party have a policy of removing nuclear weapons swiftly from Scottish soil,” he said.

“Nuclear weapons could destroy human life and indeed most life on the planet. It has been estimated that even a limited nuclear exchange then billions of people would die in the first instance and billions more around the globe as a result of radiation.

“If they are used people die in their billions and human life could be made extinct. We are looking at an extinction event.”

He also believed that it would be a tactical error for an independent Scottish Government to lease out Faslane as a short term measure as the move could provide an incentive for the UK Government to slow down negotiations in removing the weapons.

Last month the SNP CND group published a roadmap setting out the process of getting rid of Trident.

It anticipated three main steps: “Step one is ending operational deployment of the four Vanguard Class submarines that carry the Trident missiles. One submarine is always on patrol. Step two is removal of the keys and the triggers which would then be secured in a safe place on land.

“Step three is to disable the missiles. If key aspects of the guidance and control system are removed then a targeted launch is impossible. It should be noted that the actual missiles are rented from the US Navy.”

In 2016 the House of Commons backed the renewal of the UK’s Trident nuclear weapons system to beyond the early 2030s by 472 votes to 117, approving the manufacture of four replacement submarines at an estimated cost of £31bn.

Trident is the colloquial term used for the UK nuclear weapons system which comprises three main elements and has a vast supporting infrastructure.

Four Vanguard class submarines (SSBN) which maintain continuous at-sea deterrence (CASD), meaning that one vessel is always on patrol (Operation Relentless). The submarines are based at Faslane and the warheads are stored, processed and maintained at the Royal Naval Armaments Depot at Coulport.

In-service maintenance of the Vanguard class is conducted at Faslane; while deep maintenance/refit is conducted at HM Naval Base Devonport in Plymouth.

The decision to acquire Trident was announced in a Statement to the House of Commons in July 1980. A parliamentary debate, and vote, endorsing the Government’s decision was held in March 1981.

From the decision in 1980 it took 14 years to complete the acquisition of the Trident capability with the first Vanguard class submarine entering service in December 1994.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17844206.bid-impose-target-remove-trident-clyde-indyref2/

 

[The Merchant]

Renting them out is even worse , either we agree with them being there or we don't, agreeing cause someone gives a big brown envelope means the principles are for sale. We don't need nukes.