International Disunited Kingdom: The Renewed Call For Scottish Independence, Part 2.

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This thread is about the (renewed) Scottish Independence movement.

Feel free to reference and discuss the factors directly related to the subject matter, as long as you don't lose sight of the main topic of discussion: Scottish Independence.



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Scotland North Sea oil revenues collapse by nearly 100% to re-ignite independence debate
Scotland’s public sector spends £12,800 per person, but collects just £10,000 per person
Ben Chapman | 24 August 2016

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Scotland’s revenues from North Sea oil have collapsed by 97 per cent in the past year as oil prices have plummeted, reigniting a fierce debate over whether an independent Scotland could finance itself.

Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Willie Rennie said: “The nationalists' case for independence has been swallowed up by a £14bn black hole.”

Taxes collected from oil production fell from £1.8bn in 2015 to just £60m in 2016. The gap between tax revenues and what Scotland spends is now 9.5 per cent, or £14.8bn, compared to a 4 per cent deficit for the UK as a whole.

Scotland’s public sector now spends £12,800 per person, but collects just £10,000 each, the figures reveal.

In 2008-9, as oil peaked at almost $150 per barrel, the Scottish government brought in a record £11.6bn from North Sea fields. North Sea Brent crude, which is expensive to extract, now languishes at less than $50 amid a glut of middle eastern supply and a slowdown in global demand.

The figures re-ignited the debate over Scottish independence, with fierce disagreement over the viability of using Scotland’s oil revenues to finance public spending.

Nicola Sturgeon, Scotland’s First Minister denied that the deficit represented a serious problem. “The foundations of our economy remain strong”, she said.

“The lower oil price has, of course, reduced offshore revenues, with a corresponding impact on our fiscal position - this underlines the fact that Scotland's challenge is to continue to grow our onshore economy.

“However, Scotland's long-term economic success is now being directly threatened by the likely impact of Brexit.

“Today's figures come a day after analysis from the Scottish Government showed that taking Scotland out of the European Union and our place in the world's biggest single market would make the task of growing and diversifying the Scottish economy even harder.”

Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale said: “Today's figures should act as a reality check for those calling for another independence referendum.

Patrick Harvie, Scottish Greens finance spokesman, said: “These figures will inevitably set off another round of empty rhetoric, just as they do every year, between those who think the SNP can do no wrong and those who think Scotland can never aspire to govern itself.

“In truth, the figures show what has been clear for years - that a strong future for Scotland's economy will depend on ending our reliance on oil and gas, and investing in the industries of the 21st century instead.”

Scotland's Finance Secretary Derek Mackay said: “It is important to note that [the figures represent] Scotland's fiscal position under the current constitutional arrangements.

“The position if Scotland was to become independent would depend on a range of factors which are not reflected in this publication.”

Scottish Conservative finance spokesman Murdo Fraser said: “Today's analysis simply confirms the fact that Scotland benefits massively from being a member of the United Kingdom.

“This union dividend amounted to £1,600 for every man, woman and child last year, according to these figures.

“In recent days we have seen the First Minister fear-mongering over the UK's decision to leave the EU in the hope she can hide the flaws in her own separation plan.

“It is time she acted like a proper First Minister, ended her unwanted plan to take us back to another toxic referendum, and allowed Scotland to move on.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...sh-independence-nicola-sturgeon-a7207756.html
 
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Scottish government publishes independence referendum bill
Libby Brooks Scotland correspondent | May 29, 2019

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Legislation to enable a second referendum on independence has been published by the Scottish government, as Nicola Sturgeon said another vote before 2021 would give Scotland “the opportunity to choose to be an independent European nation – rather than have a Brexit future imposed upon us”.

The framework bill, published on Wednesday, comes after the Scottish National party secured a record three MEPs and its highest European parliament vote at 38%, boosted by the first minister’s clear pro-remain campaigning, in which Sturgeon urged voters to support her party whether or not they were pro-independence, to send a convincing message about Scotland’s opposition to Brexit.

In a statement to Holyrood on Wednesday afternoon, the Scottish government’s constitutional relations secretary, Michael Russell, described the EU election result as a “fresh start”. He argued Scotland had stated “loudly and clearly that it was a European nation”, adding that the conditions for holding a second independence referendum, set out in the SNP’s 2016 manifesto, had now been “met in full” as the UK headed for a no-deal Brexit.

The referendums (Scotland) bill does not specify the date, question or referendum period, which would all be set by secondary legislation. Sturgeon has previously committed to securing the necessary transfer of powers from Westminster before holding a vote, something Theresa May has consistently stated she would refuse if requested.

The SNP leader said: “We will seek agreement to a transfer of power at an appropriate point to enable an independence referendum that is beyond challenge to be held later in this parliament. It is essential the UK government recognises that it would be a democratic outrage if it seeks to block such a referendum. Indeed, any such stance would, in my view, prove to be utterly unsustainable.”

Following the publication of the bill, three of the candidates to replace May as Conservative leader: Rory Stewart, Sajid Javid and James Cleverly, said they would block any request from Sturgeon to hold another independence referendum.

Sturgeon, who first announced she wanted new legislation for a second referendum in June 2016, immediately after the UK voted to leave the EU, added: “Now, more than ever, it is essential that we keep Scotland’s options open so that people have the opportunity to choose a better future.

“Throughout the Brexit process, Scotland has been treated with contempt by Westminster, and our efforts to find compromise and protect the interests of the people of Scotland, who voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU, have been ignored.”

Outlining her intention to publish the legislation last month, Sturgeon insisted a second independence referendum must be held before the next Holyrood election in May 2021 if Brexit went ahead, but has since revised her position, suggesting she would still push for another vote if the UK were to remain in the EU.

While recent polling has shown a slight lift in support for independence, she cautioned party activists at last month’s SNP conference about the need to build popular support for their cause.

As a challenge to critics who have warned independence would result in billions of pounds in spending cuts, Sturgeon announced at the conference a new campaign on the economics of independence, launching this summer, including a guide on the subject for all 2.4m Scottish households.

The proposed bill is intended to become law by the end of this year, and is expected to pass without difficulty given Holyrood’s pro-independence majority between the SNP and Scottish Greens.

In his statement to MSPs, Michael Russell said one of the key lessons from Brexit was that “there is a need for reconciliation”. He said the Scottish government was trying “to get away from the negativity and nastiness of the current Brexit process” through a package of proposals, including cross-party talks to discuss Scotland’s constitutional future, and a citizens’ assembly, based on the Irish model, which was used successfully in reforming Ireland’s abortion laws.

Responding to Russell’s statement, the Scottish Conservatives constitution spokesman, Adam Tomkins, accused the SNP government of “laying the ground for a ‘wildcat’ second referendum on independence”.

Describing the bill as “a power grab on an industrial scale”, Tomkins warned: “It’s not about the democracy of letting people decide in a lawful referendum – it’s about the diktat of an independence-obsessed first minister.”
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...publishes-second-independence-referendum-bill
 
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Scotland's deficit seven times higher than UK as a whole last year
By Severin Carrell | Aug 21, 2019

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Scotland ran a deficit seven times higher than the UK as a whole last year, despite again cutting its overspend on public services.

The latest Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (Gers) figures showed there was a record gap of nearly £2,000 per person between how much was spent on public services and debt repayment, and total tax revenues for 2018-19.

Scotland’s notional deficit stood at £12.6bn or 7% of GDP, including North Sea oil revenues, compared with the UK’s total £23.5bn deficit, which includes Scotland’s figure. The UK deficit is equivalent to 1.1% of its GDP.

Total state spending in Scotland was £1,661 higher per person than the UK average at £75.3bn, while tax receipts were £307 less per head than the UK average, at £62.7bn. Excluding oil revenues, the deficit exceeded £14bn, equal to 22.5% of tax revenues.

Opposition parties said the data blew a hole in the financial case for leaving the UK. But Derek Mackay, the Scottish finance secretary, said it proved independence was needed to allow Scotland to control its own economic policies.

“I recognise that the notional deficit isn’t where we would want it to be,” Mackay said, but argued that Gers showed onshore tax income, excluding oil revenues, was up 5.1%, while employment was at record levels. “Revenues are growing faster than expenditure,” he added.

Mackay confirmed that the Gers data, which covers all UK and Scottish government spending in Scotland and a share of pan-UK spending on areas such as defence, overseas aid and debt reduction, was an accurate assessment of the country’s fiscal position last year.

He said they were irrelevant to an independent Scotland’s future finances, however. “I do think these figures speak to the truth, speak to the fact, that Scotland would be better off as an independent country than we are as part of the UK,” he said.

He said current tax revenues now paid for all Scotland’s devolved services, including social care. Total state spending included about £6.5bn on servicing the UK’s debt repayments and defence costs including Trident.

The Scottish National party wants Trident scrapped and Mackay confirmed that his government would refuse to repay its share of UK debt after independence. He said the SNP would instead offer “solidarity payments” to cover its share of historic debts, but he admitted he did not know whether the UK government would agree to that arrangement.

Mackay suggested the SNP would not try to cut public spending after independence but would instead focus on economic growth to cut the revenue gap. However, he was unable to say how quickly GDP would need to grow to avoid spending cuts.

Ruth Davidson, the Scottish Tory leader, was scathing about Mackay’s claims that Scotland should be pleased it was cutting its deficit faster than the UK. The Gers report said Scotland’s fiscal gap had consistently been 7% higher than the UK’s over the last five years.

She said Scotland’s notional deficit was the highest in the EU. Cyprus had the next nearest, at 4.8%, while Romania’s was at 3% and France at 2.5%. EU membership rules require member states to have a budget deficit below 3%. “For the SNP to pretend a 7% deficit is not an issue is criminally negligent,” she tweeted.

Unlike previous years, Nicola Sturgeon, the first minister and SNP leader, chose not to meet the media to discuss the Gers figures. Instead she campaigned for the third time in Shetland in the byelection to replace the Lib Dem MSP Tavish Scott, who stood down in June.

Willie Rennie, the Scottish Liberal Democrat leader, accused Sturgeon of dodging difficult questions by refusing to host the Gers press conference. He said this data showed independence would chaos economic chaos. “Five years ago, the vast majority of people in Shetland voted to avoid this eye-watering deficit by rejecting the SNP’s independence campaign,” and they should reject the SNP in the byelection too, he said.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...8-deficit-higher-than-uk-as-a-whole-last-year
 
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Scottish Independence Is Back, and So Are the Financial Hurdles
By Eddie Spence | August 31, 2019

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It’s been a good few weeks for Scotland’s pro-independence government. An opinion poll showed an increase in support for breaking away from the rest of Britain. Then the U.K. headed for a showdown over Brexit and the popular leader of the biggest opposition party stepped down.

While the political and emotional arguments may be stacking up, questions remain over economics and finance. Recent figures suggest the challenges are just as great as they were when Scotland last voted on ending the three-centuries-old union with England and Wales five years ago this month.

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The Scottish National Party, which runs the semi-autonomous administration in Edinburgh, has been championing the differences between Scotland and the rest of Britain and is demanding another referendum. Should certain political dominoes fall, it might end up getting one.

Scotland voted overwhelmingly against leaving the European Union and this year’s European parliamentary elections saw anti-Brexit parties prevail, unlike in England. The core economic argument is that full control over taxation, a geographical share of North Sea oil, a long transition to its own currency and continued membership in the EU will foster greater prosperity.

The problem is when it comes to breaking away, some of the key numbers still look the same as any other British region if it were untethered from the economic dynamo that is London.

Last month’s publication of government finances showed that as Europe’s newest independent state, Scotland would have a larger budget deficit than any other EU nation. The shortfall would stand at 7% of GDP, albeit down from 8.1% a year earlier.

Though it has fallen in recent years, at just under 13 billion pounds ($15.8 billion), Scotland’s public deficit is roughly half the size of the U.K.’s as a whole.

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Such statistics are often used by opponents of independence to show Scotland relies on income from England to fund its public services, but the reality is a little more subtle. The cash transfers Scotland receives are comparable to those that most English regions get from London and the South East. Scotland is about as fiscally independent as Yorkshire.

During the 2014 referendum the answer to naysayers was one word: oil. Most of U.K.’s oil reserves lie in Scottish waters and the argument was that the wealth generated by hydrocarbon extraction could cover the fiscal deficit and more.

Since then, the price of crude crashed to less than half its 2014 peak and North Sea tax revenue collapsed. While the industry has picked up in the past two years, offshore revenue for the 2016-2017 financial year was 266 million pounds compared with the minimum of 6.8 billion pounds predicted in the pro-independence campaign’s “Scotland’s Future” blueprint.

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Part of Scotland’s dilemma is that its economy is missing a large productive city like London, Paris or Copenhagen, which can subsidize less productive rural regions. Scotland’s population of 5.4 million is less than two thirds of London’s.

While the historic capital Edinburgh ranks highly for output per resident, it’s too small and so doesn’t generate enough tax revenue in absolute terms. Glasgow, Scotland’s largest city, isn’t as productive, statistics show. Politically, they’re also different: Glasgow voted for Scottish independence five years ago while Edinburgh opposed it.

Usually, the most economically dynamic cities in a country are the largest, owing to the benefits produced by “economies of agglomeration,” that is bringing people and businesses closer together to improve efficiency. But, unlike much of Europe, in the U.K. that’s not the case. Cities like Manchester, Birmingham and Glasgow are less productive.

“This poses a challenge for the SNP,” said Tom Forth, co-founder of The Data City, which compiles statistics to help steer urban policy making. “For as long as the city is a net recipient of public money rather than a net contributor to the Treasury, the fiscal case for Scottish independence will be hard to make.”

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ence-is-back-and-so-are-the-financial-hurdles
 
As Brexit uncertainty drags on, Scotland's appetite for independence grows
Margaret Evans · CBC News · Posted: Sep 06, 2019

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The colossal columns that make up Edinburgh's unfinished National Monument are a good metaphor for the Scottish dream of independence.

Unfinished, yes, but still standing — impossible to ignore and a constant in the Scottish landscape as it sits perched on Calton Hill, overlooking the city.

Commissioned as a monument to the soldiers who died in the Napoleonic Wars, its foundations were laid in 1822. But money soon ran out and locals dubbed it "Edinburgh's disgrace."

Whether Scotland's nationalists will be able to do anything about the unfinished part of that metaphor is now a question of considerable speculation against the backdrop of the political chaos over Brexit playing out in Parliament.

Sixty-two per cent of Scots voted to remain in the European Union in Britain's 2016 referendum.

And many have looked on in horror as British Prime Minister Boris Johnson has tried to bulldoze the United Kingdom out of the EU by the end of October — with or without a formal agreement.

"I feel pretty pissed off, really," said Lesley McDonald, out for a walk along Edinburgh's Royal Mile. "Scotland is much more socially democratic, I believe. For many years, Scotland has felt underrepresented in Westminster."

McDonald said she was among the 55 per cent of Scots who rejected independence in a 2014 referendum on the topic, the only one in her family to do so.

But because of Brexit, she's since changed her mind.

"I feel almost cornered now," she said. "If it's being part of the U.K. or being part of Europe, I feel then it has to be Europe. So, yes, I would vote for independence now."

Polls hint at change

She's not alone.

A YouGov poll released this week put support for Scottish independence at 49 per cent. But it also found that 45 per cent of those surveyed want another referendum on independence in the next five years, compared to the 44 per cent who don't.

And an opinion survey conducted in August by pollster Michael Ashcroft found a majority now backs independence, with 46 per cent of Scots in favour, compared to 43 per cent against.

Nicola Sturgeon, Scotland's first minister and leader of the pro-independence Scottish National Party (SNP), has said she wants to see another referendum by 2021. But in order to hold one, she would require a transfer of authority from Westminster.

"It is anti-democratic of any politician in London to stand in the face of [another referendum]," said Ian Blackford, the SNP's House leader in British Parliament, in an interview with CBC News.

"It's particularly important given that in our referendum in 2014, we were told if Scotland stayed in the U.K., our rights as EU citizens would be respected, that they would remain. We are being taken out of the European Union against our will."

Timothy Bale, a professor of politics at Queen Mary, University of London, said he believes the SNP will be in a good position if the U.K. moves forward with a no-deal divorce.

"[They] would be in a very good position to argue that government from Westminster is in some way illegitimate and that they should be allowed to have a second Scottish independence referendum," he said.

Another development standing in the SNP's favour was the recent resignation of Ruth Davidson as the leader of the Scottish Conservatives.

Davidson was a strong advocate in favour of British unionism for the "Better Together" campaign during the 2014 referendum. Her personal popularity was also credited with winning the Conservatives 13 seats in the 2017 general election.

But Davidson, who clashed openly with Boris Johnson on the issue of a no-deal Brexit, stepped down last week, citing personal and professional reasons.

'The last thing any of us need'

Not everyone, of course, is on the pro-independence bandwagon.

Aaron Ross, who manages the Ben Nevis Scotch whisky distillery in Fort William, said the uncertainty surrounding the nature of Britain's exit from the European Union is already enough to contend with — even though his industry is likely to be affected.

Scotch whisky, which must mature for a minimum of three years, currently enjoys a special "geographical indication" under EU law. It's still not clear what would happen to that protection if the U.K. were, for example, to try and negotiate a post-Brexit trade deal with the United States.

Ross also says they're being swamped with pre-Brexit orders from buyers and distributors in other countries unclear about potential post-Brexit customs delays or tariff hikes.

It's a lot to try and prepare for, he said.

"There are rumblings about a further independence vote. But I think the last thing any of us need at the moment is another vote on anything until we get resolution on the vote previous to that.

Resolution on Brexit is still a long way off — especially given the extraordinary showdown between the British prime minister and Parliament this week, as opposition and rebel conservative MPs wrested control of the House of Commons in a bid to prevent a no-deal Brexit

The longer the chaos over Brexit continues, the greater Scottish nationalists believe their chances of finally realizing their dream.

"A lot of people think that politics is something distant that doesn't impact their day-to-day living, but I think Brexit is bringing that, maybe, a little closer home," said Pauline Clark, who was attending the annual Cowal Highland Gathering in Dunoon last week.

"Hopefully it will be enough to make people realize that independence is the only way that Scotland can get out of this mess."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/brexit-scottish-independence-debate-new-life-1.5272126
 
This is how Ireland becomes united and free.

At last!!!!!!!!!!

And on your post about Scotland and oil revenue. They will have zero after the left makes them stop pumping it. Send in AOC!!
 
Very sad to see their union in danger. England, ironically might have voted a break from the EU but broken up the union. Scottish calls for independence are completely understandable. It was only a few years ago their membership in the EU was held over their head if they were secede, only to get kidnapped out of the EU.


And on your post about Scotland and oil revenue. They will have zero after the left makes them stop pumping it. Send in AOC!!

I'm almost afraid to ask, but what???

Scotland as an independent country is left from the Democratic party. Far more.

In fact, the British conservative party is probably left of the Democratic party.
 
Nothing says Scottish independence like Braveheart. Here's hoping they win.


 
Very sad to see their union in danger. England, ironically might have voted a break from the EU but broken up the union. Scottish calls for independence are completely understandable. It was only a few years ago their membership in the EU was held over their head if they were secede, only to get kidnapped out of the EU.




I'm almost afraid to ask, but what???

Scotland as an independent country is left from the Democratic party. Far more.

In fact, the British conservative party is probably left of the Democratic party.

There are different variances of “the left”.

There are many on that side that will say Scotland is destroying the world with pumping oil, and selling it.

No more fossil fuels. Only green. Scotland’s major revenue stream no longer exists
 
There are different variances of “the left”.

There are many on that side that will say Scotland is destroying the world with pumping oil, and selling it.

No more fossil fuels. Only green. Scotland’s major revenue stream no longer exists

Are you basing that on anything in Scotland? Or just making broad assumptions about what you think leftists want in other countries
 
Another referendum is definitely warranted after this whole Brexit debacle. Whether you support independence or not is a different question entirely.
 
There are different variances of “the left”.

You and many other people have a bizarre view of what the left really is. Rest assured, Scotland's most significant export is in no danger of being culled whatsoever.
 
I heard the Scott's are crazy libtard now. They all voted remain.

"The problem with Scotland is......that's it's full of Scott's!!!! *laughter*"

-King LongShanks
 

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