Difference between being an outstanding athlete, and an outstanding fighter

[Cake4Breakfast]

This is Sherdog where the counterfactual is factual.

 

[Rum]

The point is not necessarily that athleticism guarantees the best fighter, but if you put the best skills in the hands of the best athlete that fighter will be much better at using those skills. In the same way that if you give the best skills to a shit athlete then that dude is more often than not still gonna get wrecked in a bar fight. Being a top flight athlete means that naturally you have amazing coordination, speed, dexterity, balance, flexibility, power, and strength. The combination of those traits can ONLY aid in developing a fighter, and in almost no circumstance can prove to be a disadvantage.

Looking over the current UFC heavyweights and LHW you will notice an INCREDIBLE drop in athleticism from 125-185 guys, why is this? Well... most guys that are elite athletes at a professional level do, in fact, pursue other sports that reward much more money. You are right, the talent pool for MMA is inherently lower than any other sport because it is not scholastic nor is it popular to train young. But you can't tell me a dude like Julius Peppers/Mario Williams/JJ Watt/Grownkowski/Jimmy Graham would not have an AMAZING advantage over joe schmoe who has an ego problem so trained MMA to beat ass. The talent at the heavier divisions simply has an anemic amount of true athletes. Whether those athletes I mentioned would be world champions or not is not the point. The point is that even with a year training those dudes would be much tougher fights than probably anyone else on the roster.

People who consider NFL/NBA athletes physique as a disadvantage are so delirious from only seeing low level athletes pump roids and gas out that they can't comprehend how a true physical freak trains. If you scale the lower division champions to a 255 lb heavyweight they would ALL look more physically imposing than everyone currently at heavyweight. It just shows the state of the division. We have dudes that fight at 20+ % body fat and then turn around and try to convince a forum that a 260 lb 8% body fat dude would gas in 2 minutes.

Hopefully someone reads haha

I read it.

You nailed it aside from the fact that in general even MW, a weight classes very much in the range of the big money sports, doesn't have the P4P athleticism of LW, FW and BW.

 

[ilfirin]

Outstanding athlete's (LeBron) house:

Outstanding fighter's house:

So... you're saying outstanding athlete's completely lack taste?

 

[ilfirin]

Even if MMA paid more than every other sport, most A level athletes would STILL not train in MMA. The prospect of getting your head beaten in for a living isn't worth it to most people, regardless of the compensation.

Are we pretending 'Murican Football doesn't have a huge problem with brain damage now? Clearly a lot of people accept the prospect of getting their heads beaten in for a living and do, in fact, play American Football.

 

[ilfirin]

I bet that JJ could be a UFC champion in 1 year training. I know it sounds crazy, but he is on such another level in aggression/athleticism/power/explosion that the UFC wouldn't know wtf to do. Imagine Lesnar x 2

lol no. It doesn't matter how athletic you are, you are not beating the likes of Fabricio Werdum after 1 year of training.

 

[Rum]

A) Athletes don't decide to go to the NFL/NBA over MMA just on a decision, it's more so the fact that those people play Football and Basketball from elementary school and decide to go that route because it's where a lifetime of skill and practice leads them. People very rarely start boxing at a young age, so there is a disconnect between measuring athletic prowess from fighting ability. Some people do start wresting very young, and as a result a lot of very very highly regarded wrestlers fight in MMA, from all americans, to NCAA champions, to even Olympic competitors. And almost nobody starts training MMA at an early age - So I think it's reasonable to assume "A Level Athletes", as measured by football and basketball success don't avoid MMA because of the money, but rather because they have spent a lifetime playing a specific sport.

Hypothetical question to prove this point: Do you think Lebron James, after being an amazing high school basketball player, would decide to start training MMA if he was offered 10 million per fight? I believe he would stick to the sport he knows.

It's not about what a millionaire A-level athlete would do if offered a payday. It's about the decisions athletes make as hungry youngsters.

Hypothetical question to prove this point: Would swapping the amount of money available to top football/soccer/hockey/basketball players with the amount made by top MMA fighters have an affect on the decisions made by youngsters choosing which sport to play?

B) Pro teams draft a player based on a combination of skill and athleticism. I'd venture that the people with the fastest run times and strongest lifts are sometimes not drafted, because they are not as skilled as other players who are still athletic, but not "the most athletic". - I think it's reasonable to assume the NFL/NBA don't just pick the best athletes, but the most skilled players.

Hypothetical question to prove this point: Do you think Bret Farve or Kobe Bryant, 2 of the best in there sport, were the most athletic players of there era? I believe they were not.

That's an entirely reasonable assumption, but you have to recognise that it's about all other things being equal. If there was a more athletic version of Bret Favre or Kobe Bryant going up against the regular versions of Bret Favre or Kobe Bryant obviously the more athletic version gets the nod.

C) Being the more athletic person, doesn't win fights. Do you think Griffen was more athletic than Rampage? Machida more athletic than Rashad? Rua more athletic than Machida?

TUF 10 had 4 former NFL players, including a #1 draft pick. Yet Roy Nelson won, perhaps the least athletic person on the show.

Sometimes being the more athletic person does win fights. Was Brendan Schaub more skilled than CroCop? Was Mitrione more skilled than Gonzaga? Did Brock Lesnar fight anyone with less skill and MMA experience than himon his way to becoming UFC champion in his fourth ever MMA fight?

Of course there are other attributes in addition to athleticism which are important. Nobody claims there aren't. But athleticism is clearly a factor in MMA, which is why an injection of generally higher-level athletes would result in a generally higher level of fighter.

 

[BisexualMMA]

Kevin Randleman vs Bas Rutten.

 

[Rum]

i hear this all the time, but the fact is most people just aren't fighters. playing a sport is just different than fighting.

I hear this all the time. The #1 P4P fighter on the planet is an ex-soccer player. There are plenty of scrappy fuckers playing that game at the highest level. Same with football, hockey, basketball etc.

Do you know how many athletes there are at the higher levels of the big money sports? At least 4000. That's why it doesn't matter one bit that "most people just aren't fighters". We would only need 10% of those athletes to have chosen MMA instead of their current sports to make a significant impact on the average level of fighting ability in the larger (MW/LHW/HW) divisions.

Even now, with MMA paying shit, we have a bunch of ex-soccer and ex-football players in the big league of MMA, proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are athletes from those sports who have the fighter mentality. Imagine how many we'd have if MMA paid as much as football and soccer do.

 

[Rum]

Grizzlies forward James Johnson was a first round draft pick and has played in the NBA since 2009.

He also has a 20-0 kickboxing record and a 1-0 MMA record.

Why did Johnson, a high-level athlete from a family of black belts who clearly has a fighter's mentality, pursue basketball for a living instead of fighting?

 

[ilfirin]

I had my eyes on Bones for awhile before he won the belt. he's the perfect example of a fighter with pure athleticism and skills and that's why he was P4P the best and still is. First off, he's born with a freakish physique. He's a lhw guy who's reach is equal to the tallest fighter in the hw division. I notice that with greatness comes lots of haters for some reason, and I have friends who complain that the only reason he wins is because of that reach. I say 'Don't be a hater, what we're witnessing is human evolution!' :wink:

Welcome to Sherdog, Jonathan!

 

[ilfirin]

Grizzlies forward James Johnson was a first round draft pick and has played in the NBA since 2009.

He also has a 20-0 kickboxing record and a 1-0 MMA record.

Why did Johnson, a high-level athlete from a family of black belts who clearly has a fighter's mentality, pursue basketball for a living instead of fighting?

Perhaps he simply likes basketball better? You do know that not all people in the world chose profession strictly from a salary point of view, right? For some people, doing what you truly love, is vastly more important than getting more material possessions.

 

[Rum]

Perhaps he simply likes basketball better? You do know that not all people in the world chose profession strictly from a salary point of view, right? For some people, doing what you truly love, is vastly more important than getting more material possessions.

And there are fairies living at the bottom of my garden.

 

[ilfirin]

He was too hittable and didn't like being hit. That will happen, but Brock is a POOR counter eargument. At a very old age he switched to MMA and in a short period took heavyweight gold in the best promotion on the planet.. Imagine how many Lesnar's there are out there with better striking, head movement, chin... Seriously... SERIOUSLY

I'm sorry, but 30 year old isn't "very old", and that's how old Lesnar was at his debut fight. Meaning he arguably trained for a bit prior to his first fight, so he was likely in his late 20s when he made the switch, having a proper collegiate wrestling background. And if you seriously think the UFC HW division back in 2007 was the best one in the world, you're either delusional or new to MMA.

 

[ilfirin]

And there are fairies living at the bottom of my garden.

I honestly feel sad for you if what you value the most in life are material things.

 

[sadclown]

if you'd played high school sports, you might be familiar with the guys who run fast, jump high, lift a ton and was ripped to shred...

during the off seasons, these guys are the top dawgs, but come play time, out in the field, amidst the lights of a friday night, they haven't got a clue...

meanwhile, there are those who are slow, don't lift much and look un-athletics who are star players...


some people just have a nose for the game, and some don't... similar to fighting...

 

[Rum]

I honestly feel sad for you if what you value the most in life are material things.

I ain't talking about me Mr Dramatic, I'm talking about these mega-talented, mega-driven young mega-athletes. You've seen the way these dudes carry on.

They ain't living their lives according to Disney movies, they're living their lives according to hip-hop videos and Scorcese movies.

 

[Cooliox]

if you'd played high school sports, you might be familiar with the guys who run fast, jump high, lift a ton and was ripped to shred...

during the off seasons, these guys are the top dawgs, but come play time, out in the field, amidst the lights of a friday night, they haven't got a clue...

meanwhile, there are those who are slow, don't lift much and look un-athletics who are star players...


some people just have a nose for the game, and some don't... similar to fighting...

So you're saying it is impossible for the fastest runner/highest jumper to also be the captain of the basketball team, and have a black belt?

You're saying where you're from such an athlete is impossible?

 

[Tsar]

Most people aren't successful football players/basketball players/ etc. The point is not most people, it's about A-level athletes. Football players probably are predisposed to being successful in MMA due to the knack for contact/aggression/pain.

an a-level athlete might rather dunk a basketball than get punched in the ace. that's what i've been talking about. not everyone is cut out to be a fighter, and athleticism alone doesn't make some a fighter.

 

[ALAN PARTRIDGE]

I'm a MMA fan

sweet as

 

[Malthian]

Are we pretending 'Murican Football doesn't have a huge problem with brain damage now? Clearly a lot of people accept the prospect of getting their heads beaten in for a living and do, in fact, play American Football.

The people playing football now (in their 20's) started over a decade ago as children, LONG before the issues of brain damage became a major discussion point. That's why many parents who would have let their children participate in football a decade or more ago are intentionally NOT letting their children participate in football today.

And the key difference between MMA and Football as a sport is that while football has the possibility of injury, MMA is guaranteed to result in injury. For other sports, injury is incidental. IE, you CAN be injured, but it is not assured as the intent of the game is not to injure the other participants but to achieve a goal unrelated to being injured or inflicting injury (run a route, throw a pass, block a tackle, etc).

For MMA, the sole goal is to inflict injury upon the opponent, which means that injury isn't incidental, it's integral to the sport.

THIS is why many people who can participate in football can not participate in MMA. It's one thing to look at injury as a random factor in participation. You anticipate the possibility of injury, but you know that it's not highly probable on any given night. It's another thing entirely to enter a ring knowing that it will result in a physical beating with the potential of unconsciousness and/or joint/limb damage to you and/or your opponent EVERY time you participate.