Difference between being an outstanding athlete, and an outstanding fighter

[Bones245n4847]

The reason A level athletes start training to be great at football and basketball is the money and fame involved. Possibility of being a millionaire in your 20s with groupies waiting outside your team hotel in every city is appealing. If MMA offered as easy a route to millions of dollars as opposed to starting out 8k/8k then I think 12-14 year olds will start training mma with the hope of getting to the UFC. As of right now, MMA is a last resort for many athetes. You get the run of the mill former wrestler or football washout. Football players come in their 30s and win a few fights in the UFC. You got college wrestlers who got no prospects after college coming to fight mma and many times that's good enough to grab the belt.

 

[Tsar]

Brock Lesnar is a fine example of this.

Excellent wrestling career, stint in professional football... did well in MMA... couldn't handle getting hit in the face.. just turtled up every time.

it's true. and he's a tough fucking guy. to give him credit, he toughed out a win against carwin after getting beat up in rd. 1. but in general, he just didn't like getting hit. he's still a bad mf.

 

[Tsar]

The reason A level athletes start training to be great at football and basketball is the money and fame involved. Possibility of being a millionaire in your 20s with groupies waiting outside your team hotel in every city is appealing. If MMA offered as easy a route to millions of dollars as opposed to starting out 8k/8k then I think 12-14 year olds will start training mma with the hope of getting to the UFC. As of right now, MMA is a last resort for many athetes. You get the run of the mill former wrestler or football washout. Football players come in their 30s and win a few fights in the UFC. You got college wrestlers who got no prospects after college coming to fight mma and many times that's good enough to grab the belt.

i hear this all the time, but the fact is most people just aren't fighters. playing a sport is just different than fighting.

 

[CoffeeAndBeer]

Difference between being an outstanding athlete, and an outstanding fighter

Chin
Heart

 

[jamiehunter]

Don't forget that the same "can't handle being hit/hitting" goes for NFL players to. That's no candy ass sport, my friend. Lots of those types of people are weeded out through peewee, then highschool, and college. Those guys take massive collisions that can really rock you hard (trust me, i know). And being from that type of background certainly already assumes that they have some type of fighter mentally.

With football players I'd say the biggest factor would be the grappling aspect more than being able to withstand a hit.

 

[Sgt Smith]

Mental aspect is huge when it comes to combat sports. An "A" level athlete, as many like to refer to them as, with Matt Brown's toughness would be a force to be reckoned with in MMA. But even that would not be a guarantee that said fighter would not suffer a loss. The fight game is not picked up overnight, just as these other athlete's sports are not. There are intangibles that fighters possess that athletes that compete in other sports do not have, and vice versa.

A combination of speed, stamina, toughness, and ring acumen with a well rounded MMA skillset is going to make a pretty dominant fighter as similar skillsets do in other sports. Bones and Mighty Mouse are two of the better examples so far in MMA in my opinion. Romero has potential as well, but he got a late start and still needs a few more fights before a full evaluation can be made. Keep in mind these are completely subjective and others may have completely differing thoughts on who most resembles these qualities.

 

[Zeppeling]

Do you think Brock lost his fights because he wasn't athletic enough?

He was too hittable and didn't like being hit. That will happen, but Brock is a POOR counter eargument. At a very old age he switched to MMA and in a short period took heavyweight gold in the best promotion on the planet.. Imagine how many Lesnar's there are out there with better striking, head movement, chin... Seriously... SERIOUSLY

 

[Zeppeling]

With football players I'd say the biggest factor would be the grappling aspect more than being able to withstand a hit.

Football is no where near grappling... like not even close

edit: and it's not necessarily someone being able to withstand a hit. It just groups a large amount of athletes that not only take hits, but enjoy being hit/hitting. It's that type of mentality that makes fighters.

 

[Zeppeling]

i hear this all the time, but the fact is most people just aren't fighters. playing a sport is just different than fighting.

Most people aren't successful football players/basketball players/ etc. The point is not most people, it's about A-level athletes. Football players probably are predisposed to being successful in MMA due to the knack for contact/aggression/pain.

 

[Singlelegsweep]

The point is not necessarily that athleticism guarantees the best fighter, but if you put the best skills in the hands of the best athlete that fighter will be much better at using those skills. In the same way that if you give the best skills to a shit athlete then that dude is more often than not still gonna get wrecked in a bar fight. Being a top flight athlete means that naturally you have amazing coordination, speed, dexterity, balance, flexibility, power, and strength. The combination of those traits can ONLY aid in developing a fighter, and in almost no circumstance can prove to be a disadvantage.

Looking over the current UFC heavyweights and LHW you will notice an INCREDIBLE drop in athleticism from 125-185 guys, why is this? Well... most guys that are elite athletes at a professional level do, in fact, pursue other sports that reward much more money. You are right, the talent pool for MMA is inherently lower than any other sport because it is not scholastic nor is it popular to train young. But you can't tell me a dude like Julius Peppers/Mario Williams/JJ Watt/Grownkowski/Jimmy Graham would not have an AMAZING advantage over joe schmoe who has an ego problem so trained MMA to beat ass. The talent at the heavier divisions simply has an anemic amount of true athletes. Whether those athletes I mentioned would be world champions or not is not the point. The point is that even with a year training those dudes would be much tougher fights than probably anyone else on the roster.

People who consider NFL/NBA athletes physique as a disadvantage are so delirious from only seeing low level athletes pump roids and gas out that they can't comprehend how a true physical freak trains. If you scale the lower division champions to a 255 lb heavyweight they would ALL look more physically imposing than everyone currently at heavyweight. It just shows the state of the division. We have dudes that fight at 20+ % body fat and then turn around and try to convince a forum that a 260 lb 8% body fat dude would gas in 2 minutes.

Hopefully someone reads haha

I understand the mindset, but feel it continues to compare MMA to other athletes, on the other athletes terms.

A shit ton of high level athletes from other sports have tried MMA, like I said, Judo gold medalists, Pro football players, NCAA wrestling champions. and a lot of them have not done well.

My point isn't really so much that being a good athlete doesn't make you a good fighter, tho that's true. It's just that I think people underate MMA athletes, if you're measuring them on MMA terms.

Andrei Arlovski, Jon Jones, GSP. I think even if mid-level NFL players started training in combat at age 18, for 7 years. If at age 25 they spare or roll with these guys in there prime, the difference wouldn't be enormous.

JJ Wats is a freak athlete, amazing genetics. If he trained his whole life he might be amazing, or he might be another Kevin Randleman who was also a freak athlete but didn't have a lot of long term success or longevity.

How many guys have we seen on TUF at 185, 205 or HW who are over 6 foot and ripped, good cardio in the gym and trained for years. But would lose to guys like prime Rua or Werdum, who are far from the best athletes in there divisions, but still amazing fighters.

I know im kind of rambling here, but Im just trying to say that plenty of mid level fighters with years of training are trash compared to guys who probably can't sprint as fast or jump as high as them in there division. There is just an intangible disconnect between having elite track/field and lifting stats, and having the physical toughness to take a beating, and the mental aptitude to learn grappling, counter striking and handling pressure.

I don't think anyone in NFL or NBA history, regardless of how much they trained or what age they start at, could grapple with Jacare and win. Because stamina and strength can help you - but at the end of the day there is just a ceiling on how good some people can get at certain things. For some people it's very high at basketball, but very low in fighting.

TLDR: I'm not saying athleticism doesn't help you, I'm saying A)People underate MMA athletes, cherry picking certain awkward slobs and ignoring the GSP's and Randlemans of the sport. and B)It's just different, Michel Jordan played baseball his whole life and wasn't even top 1,000, but is the best basketball player ever (probably). So although he's a great athlete and basketball player, if he drank from the fountain of youth, he may still be a terrible fighter. .

 

[Zeppeling]

I understand the mindset, but feel it continues to compare MMA to other athletes, on the other athletes terms.

A shit ton of high level athletes from other other sports have tried MMA, like I said, Judo gold medalists, Pro football players, NCAA wrestling champions. and a lot of them have not done well.

My point isn't really so much that being a good athlete doesn't make you a good fighter, tho that's true. It's just that I think people underate MMA athletes, if you're measuring them on MMA terms.

Andrei Arlovski, Jon Jones, GSP. I think even if mid-level NFL players started training in combat at age 18, for 7 years. If at age 25 they spare or roll with these guys in there prime, the difference wouldn't be enormous.

JJ Wats is a freak athlete, amazing genetics. If he trained his whole life he might be amazing, or he might be another Kevin Randleman who was also a freak athlete but didn't have a lot of long term success or longevity.

How many guys have we seen on tough at 185, 205 or HW who are over 6 foot and ripped, good cardio in the gym and trained for years. But would lose to guys like prime Rua or Werdum, who are far from the best athletes in there divisions, but still amazing fighters.

I know im kind of rambling here, but Im just trying to say that plenty of mid level fighters with years of training are trash compared to guys who probably can't sprint as fast or jump as high as them in there division. There is just an intangible disconnect between having elite track/field and lifting stats, and having the physical toughness to take a beating, and the mental aptitude to learn grappling, counter striking and handling pressure.

I don't think anyone in NFL or NBA history, regardless of how much they trained or what age they start at, could grapple with Jacare and win. Because stamina and strength can help you - but at the end of the day there is just a ceiling on how good some people can get at certain things. For some people it's very high at basketball, but very low in fighting.

TLDR: I'm not saying athleticism doesn't help you, I'm saying A)People underate MMA athletes, cherry picking certain awkward slobs and ignoring the GSP's and Randlemans of the sport. and B)It's just different, Michel Jordan played baseball his whole life and wasn't even top 1,000, but is the best basketball player ever (probably). So although he's a great athlete and basketball player, if he drank from the fountain of youth, he may still be a terrible fighter. .

I understand your points and they make sense. All of this is speculation, of course. But consider this. If you take the athleticism away from Jon Jones, then who is he? Is he a decorated Muay Thai fighter? A NCAA All American D1 wrestler? Perhaps Judo since 5? He's an athlete that adopted MMA. By and large I don't think MMA fighters are too underrated as athletes, but in the heavyweight division they are viewed correctly. It's a division with 1 or 2 marquee fighters that have built a legacy on destroyed fighters that are either A) talented with very poor genetics or B) great genetics that transferred to MMA late and thus have poor skills. We've seen lots of successful pro football players in MMA. As you mentioned brock has taken gold. Schaub and that other goof were NFL dropouts in the worst position in the league (for athleticism) and have had success in the #1 promo in the world. That's pretty telling. Those guys are a far cry from what I would consider A-level (NFL type) athleticism.

 

[fightdonttweet]

Looking over the current UFC heavyweights and LHW you will notice an INCREDIBLE drop in athleticism from 125-185 guys, why is this? Well... most guys that are elite athletes at a professional level do, in fact, pursue other sports that reward much more money. You are right, the talent pool for MMA is inherently lower than any other sport because it is not scholastic nor is it popular to train young. But you can't tell me a dude like Julius Peppers/Mario Williams/JJ Watt/Grownkowski/Jimmy Graham would not have an AMAZING advantage over joe schmoe who has an ego problem so trained MMA to beat ass. The talent at the heavier divisions simply has an anemic amount of true athletes. Whether those athletes I mentioned would be world champions or not is not the point. The point is that even with a year training those dudes would be much tougher fights than probably anyone else on the roster.

The vast majority of people are simply not that big.

Also if you're that big you're less likely to learn how to fight. If you're over 6'2 and 250 lbs, how many people exactly are going to be messing with you?

 

[jamiehunter]

Football is no where near grappling... like not even close

edit: and it's not necessarily someone being able to withstand a hit. It just groups a large amount of athletes that not only take hits, but enjoy being hit/hitting. It's that type of mentality that makes fighters.

Yeah, that's my point. If an elite football player decides to do MMA whether or not he can pick up the grappling part of it will be more determinant of his success than his ability to withstand a hit.

Football gets a person somewhat accustomed to being hit but it doesn't prepare someone to defend a submission.

 

[Zeppeling]

Yeah, that's my point. If an elite football player decides to do MMA whether or not he can pick up the grappling part of it will be more determinant of his success than his ability to withstand a hit.

Football gets a person somewhat accustomed to being hit but it doesn't prepare someone to defend a submission.

Ah, right. The point isn't necessarily transitioning from one sport to another, it's more or less the hypothetical "what if". Like, what if JJ had trained MMA INSTEAD. The point isn't that football has conditioned these players TO take a hit, it's just that athletes that join football are more inclined to enjoy/compete violently so they are a natural fit for MMA. But I agree, success at MMA is always hinged on take down defense/submission defense. If you can't do that, you don't have a shot.

 

[Zeppeling]

The vast majority of people are simply not that big.

Also if you're that big you're less likely to learn how to fight. If you're over 6'2 and 250 lbs, how many people exactly are going to be messing with you?

Well a top tier athlete doesn't join MMA to win fights on the street. The idea of joining MMA, for me at least (being a football - non decorated of course ) player joining MMA is to compete against people just as classed as me. For the record I've taken to MMA very fast - although I've always loved to fight and violence has always brought out the highest level of competition in me. Now, I'm not an A level athlete, but I was an athletic, big, football player and can say that the type of football conditioning has not prevented me from transitioning into "durable" conditioning like MMA uses. For what that's all worth.. point being I guess is.. everyone can or can't be a fighter at heart (able to punch/take a punch) but it seems silly to ignore the idea that a top end athlete wouldn't be more effective in fighting than if he weren't athletic.

 

[stav]

MMA will be a "Plan B" for foorball players and NCAA wrestlers when they graduate and can't make it in the pros/Olympics...just the way it is until more money can be made for even the B Tier fighters...until they can make good money than that's the way it will be.

The idea that all athletes ONLY make choices based on money is actually flawed and proven to be false.

We just have to look at the NBA D league and players willingness to be payed peanuts when they can make large amounts of money in European and to some extent Asian/Australian basket ball leagues.

The average salary in the D-league is approx $20,000.

It is a massive jump in Pay from the D league to the NBA.

Very few players get the call up to the NBA yet the VAST majority of players refuse to even consider moving to other higher paying leagues in their pursuit of GLORY not money.
The top 50 paid European based Basketballs earn between US$2.8 mil all the way to US$8 mil (figures from 2012-2013 season).

The average salary in a 4th Tier League like Australia is: $100,000 with a MINIMUM $30,000 salary. (We know this b/c teams have a $1 million salary cap per 10 players)

That's $74k US dollars at today's exchange rate, 4 times the D-league average.
The top European Leagues obviously pay much much more.

So the question comes back to, if its all about money then More of the talented D-league players that have very little prospect of playing in the NBA would be flooding other basket ball leagues.
However they are not.

I don't doubt some athletes don't make the financial choice but i think ppl on this board underestimate athletes choices based on passion and pursuit of glory.

 

[bobgeese]

Jamie Varner showed the big difference.

When most people have their ankle snapped, they fall on the ground.

He throws punches.

Fighters > Athletes

 

[vancitymma]

The trauma from fighting isn't everyones cup of tea.

 

[Zeppeling]

The idea that all athletes ONLY make choice based on money is actually flawed and proven to be false.

We just have to look at the NBA D league and players willingness to be payed peanuts when they can make large amounts of money in European and to some extent Asian/Australian basket ball leagues.

The average salary in the D-league is approx $20,000.

It is a massive jump in Pay from the D league to the NBA.

Very few players get the call up to the NBA yet the VAST majority of players refuse to even consider moving to other higher paying leagues in their pursuit of GLORY not money.
The top 50 paid European based Basketballs earn between US$2.8 mil all the way to US$8 mil (figures from 2012-2013 season).

The average salary in a 4th Tier League like Australia is: $100,000 with a MINIMUM $30,000 salary. (We know this b/c teams have a $1 million salary cap per 10 players)

That's $74k US dollars at today's exchange rate, 4 times the D-league average.
The top European Leagues obviously pay much much more.

So the question comes back to, if its all about money then More of the talented D-league players that have very little prospect of playing in the NBA would be flooding other basket ball leagues.
However they are not.

I don't doubt some athletes don't make the financial choice but i think ppl on this board underestimate athletes choices based on passion and pursuit of glory.

Playing in foreign leagues would mean relocating. Sometimes that's all that it takes to draw the line.

 

[Zeppeling]

Jamie Varner showed the big difference.

When most people have their ankle snapped, they fall on the ground.

He throws punches.

Fighters > Athletes

You can't just display one instance of courage and then say such a stupid statement like that. Despite, you're insinuating that there aren't fighters that are athletes? I don't really get your position aside from trolling. There are tons of cases of football players playing through intense injuries. Running back with broken ribs carrying a team in the playoffs 200+ yard games, Lott amputating finger mid game, full game played on fractured leg, etc. Those don't mean much. There are also instances of GSP tapping to strikes, Jon Jones refusing to fight Chael Sonnen late notice and more. So..