Difference between being an outstanding athlete, and an outstanding fighter

[Zeppeling]

No more or no less, but most human beings aren't conditioned and/or don't have the wiring needed to be a Fighter any more than everyone can be a great business person or politician.

It's not natural to be physically adversarial. Most people avoid conflict and aren't the type that want to hit someone or be hit by someone for a living. It's more than training, it's a reckless disregard of one's own health as well as abnormally high tolerance for pain.

Some people have that tunnel vision where they can focus in on a single objective regardless of the threat to their safety. Even among MMA fighters there are few that have the sort of reckless mentality where they would literally put everything on the line to NOT lose.

It's also part of why we admire fighters, that they will get hit in the head, break their hands, have their toe falling off, or crushed bones in their face and they will keep on fighting and not want to quit.

That is not something that is common among the population regardless of the level of athlete any more than it was common among the sword swinging knights or the soldiers in WW2.

There's a reason that we give out medals for valor and bravery. It's because it is uncommon and unnatural to put victory above all else.

Even if MMA paid more than every other sport, most A level athletes would STILL not train in MMA. The prospect of getting your head beaten in for a living isn't worth it to most people, regardless of the compensation.

And all that is true. It's the fact that when you gift an a-level athlete with a-level skills. We then see the Jon Jones, GSP, Anderson Silva type fighters. Granted those athletes have to pass the "tough" test that every other fighter that becomes successful does.

 

[dmtpanic]

No more or no less, but most human beings aren't conditioned and/or don't have the wiring needed to be a Fighter any more than everyone can be a great business person or politician.

It's not natural to be physically adversarial. Most people avoid conflict and aren't the type that want to hit someone or be hit by someone for a living. It's more than training, it's a reckless disregard of one's own health as well as abnormally high tolerance for pain.

Some people have that tunnel vision where they can focus in on a single objective regardless of the threat to their safety. Even among MMA fighters there are few that have the sort of reckless mentality where they would literally put everything on the line to NOT lose.

It's also part of why we admire fighters, that they will get hit in the head, break their hands, have their toe falling off, or crushed bones in their face and they will keep on fighting and not want to quit.

That is not something that is common among the population regardless of the level of athlete any more than it was common among the sword swinging knights or the soldiers in WW2.

There's a reason that we give out medals for valor and bravery. It's because it is uncommon and unnatural to put victory above all else.

Even if MMA paid more than every other sport, most A level athletes would STILL not train in MMA. The prospect of getting your head beaten in for a living isn't worth it to most people, regardless of the compensation.

Also the risk of losing in the most humbling way possible in front of the world probably isn't the most appealing proposition for most athletes.

Losing as a team is a far easier thing to deal with.

 

[ripskater]

Hoping to start a discussion regarding the trend of Sherdogs using the phrase "A level athlete" and making claims that the united states best athletes "choose" the NFL/NBA over MMA.

My point of view is that.

A) Athletes don't decide to go to the NFL/NBA over MMA just on a decision, it's more so the fact that those people play Football and Basketball from elementary school and decide to go that route because it's where a lifetime of skill and practice leads them. People very rarely start boxing at a young age, so there is a disconnect between measuring athletic prowess from fighting ability. Some people do start wresting very young, and as a result a lot of very very highly regarded wrestlers fight in MMA, from all americans, to NCAA champions, to even Olympic competitors. And almost nobody starts training MMA at an early age - So I think it's reasonable to assume "A Level Athletes", as measured by football and basketball success don't avoid MMA because of the money, but rather because they have spent a lifetime playing a specific sport

Hypothetical question to prove this point: Do you think Lebron James, after being an amazing high school basketball player, would decide to start training MMA if he was offered 10 million per fight? I believe he would stick to the sport he knows

Lebron is in the right sport. But he could have had many options had he chosen differently when he was younger. But he would not be King James in other sports.

B) Pro teams draft a player based on a combination of skill and athleticism. I'd venture that the people with the fastest run times and strongest lifts are sometimes not drafted, because they are not as skilled as other players who are still athletic, but not "the most athletic". - I think it's reasonable to assume the NFL/NBA don't just pick the best athletes, but the most skilled players

It's a mix of both.

TUF 10 had 4 former NFL players, including a #1 draft pick. Yet Roy Nelson won, perhaps the least athletic person on the show.

Roy is an underrated athlete. Underneath all that excess fat, he is a very good athlete. Good feet, quick hands, good natural movement etc.

 

[IBeLurkin]

The point is not necessarily that athleticism guarantees the best fighter, but if you put the best skills in the hands of the best athlete that fighter will be much better at using those skills. In the same way that if you give the best skills to a shit athlete then that dude is more often than not still gonna get wrecked in a bar fight. Being a top flight athlete means that naturally you have amazing coordination, speed, dexterity, balance, flexibility, power, and strength. The combination of those traits can ONLY aid in developing a fighter, and in almost no circumstance can prove to be a disadvantage.

Looking over the current UFC heavyweights and LHW you will notice an INCREDIBLE drop in athleticism from 125-185 guys, why is this? Well... most guys that are elite athletes at a professional level do, in fact, pursue other sports that reward much more money. You are right, the talent pool for MMA is inherently lower than any other sport because it is not scholastic nor is it popular to train young. But you can't tell me a dude like Julius Peppers/Mario Williams/JJ Watt/Grownkowski/Jimmy Graham would not have an AMAZING advantage over joe schmoe who has an ego problem so trained MMA to beat ass. The talent at the heavier divisions simply has an anemic amount of true athletes. Whether those athletes I mentioned would be world champions or not is not the point. The point is that even with a year training those dudes would be much tougher fights than probably anyone else on the roster.

People who consider NFL/NBA athletes physique as a disadvantage are so delirious from only seeing low level athletes pump roids and gas out that they can't comprehend how a true physical freak trains. If you scale the lower division champions to a 255 lb heavyweight they would ALL look more physically imposing than everyone currently at heavyweight. It just shows the state of the division. We have dudes that fight at 20+ % body fat and then turn around and try to convince a forum that a 260 lb 8% body fat dude would gas in 2 minutes.

Hopefully someone reads haha

Good read, and I agree with most of this. Your last point is pretty weak though. Having low body fat does not in any way promise better cardio. It all depends on how you train. Mr. Olympia (bodybuilding champion with next to zero bodyfat, if you don't get the reference) would almost assuredly gas very quickly in an MMA match. As would an Olympic marathon champion. Cardio depends on your training.

The only thing here is you neglected the mental side, which I posted about earlier. The best athlete in the world, someone who may seem primed to be an MMA champ, might not have the mentality to hurt people for sport and react well to getting hit.

 

[damanism]

Are the two, mutually exclusive?

 

[Zeppeling]

Good read, and I agree with most of this. Your last point is pretty weak though. Having low body fat does not in any way promise better cardio. It all depends on how you train. Mr. Olympia (bodybuilding champion with next to zero bodyfat, if you don't get the reference) would almost assuredly gas very quickly in an MMA match. As would an Olympic marathon champion. Cardio depends on your training.

The only thing here is you neglected the mental side, which I posted about earlier. The best athlete in the world, someone who may seem primed to be an MMA champ, might not have the mentality to hurt people for sport and react well to getting hit.

I understand it doesn't go hand in hand, but the point was that people say that "jacked" heavyweights cannot have the cardio to hang in MMA. Point is that they'd be more capable than some of the fat heavyweights we see. I addressed mental side in another post, but I'll respond and edit in later so it's all in one spot.

"mental" side is person to person. Being an athlete doesn't ensure the mental capacity to fight. But if all things are equal, identical twins but one is much more athletic than the other, we'll almost always see the athletic one win in a fight. Now I know that's a shitty point, but what I mean to say is "toughness" isn't an exclusive trait to unathletic people. All things things otherwise the same, the athletic version of a person will always be better at sports, including mma, than an unathletic version of that same person.

 

[Speckoh]

lots of great athletes will never become great fighters. I believe that not everyone is a fighter in that they don't like to hit people or get hurt doing it. Most fighters like the thrill and excitement of it all or the science behind MMA. It is their passion. Lebron is extremely athletic but he has no passion for fighting and would probably do horribly compared to someone who actually enjoys mma.

So i'm glad that the ufc are seeking out the best fighters with that mindset. And the top ones are usually the most athletic of the bunch with that same mindset. They might not necessarily have lebron's athleticism, but they have that fighter mentality and any top fighter has some beastly athleticism either way.

 

[Zeppeling]

lots of great athletes will never become great fighters. I believe that not everyone is a fighter in that they don't like to hit people or get hurt doing it. Most fighters like the thrill and excitement of it all or the science behind MMA. It is their passion. Lebron is extremely athletic but he has no passion for fighting and would probably do horribly compared to someone who actually enjoys mma.

So i'm glad that the ufc are seeking out the best fighters with that mindset. And the top ones are usually the most athletic of the bunch with that same mindset. They might not necessarily have lebron's athleticism, but they have that fighter mentality and any top fighter has some beastly athleticism either way.

Right, it's not always the "best" in terms of skills, fighters taht make it to the UFC. It's a combination of skills and athleticism. That's why we see a young and developing Jon Jones run through the UFC when he first entered - against world class veterans.

 

[Tsar]

MMA will be a "Plan B" for foorball players and NCAA wrestlers when they graduate and can't make it in the pros/Olympics...just the way it is until more money can be made for even the B Tier fighters...until they can make good money than that's the way it will be.

and on the other hand a lot of top athletes just aren't fighters and can't handle being hurt and putting on hurt--and some guys just can't handle the individual aspect where there's no one but them out there competing against another person.

 

[ripskater]

Right, it's not always the "best" in terms of skills, fighters taht make it to the UFC. It's a combination of skills and athleticism. That's why we see a young and developing Jon Jones run through the UFC when he first entered - against world class veterans.

JJ is a great example. Young Jose Aldo was the same way. Just decimated people with his quickness and striking.

 

[Zeppeling]

JJ is a great example. Young Jose Aldo was the same way. Just decimated people with his quickness and striking.

I bet that JJ could be a UFC champion in 1 year training. I know it sounds crazy, but he is on such another level in aggression/athleticism/power/explosion that the UFC wouldn't know wtf to do. Imagine Lesnar x 2

 

[Zeppeling]

and on the other hand a lot of top athletes just aren't fighters and can't handle being hurt and putting on hurt--and some guys just can't handle the individual aspect where there's no one but them out there competing against another person.

Don't forget that the same "can't handle being hit/hitting" goes for NFL players to. That's no candy ass sport, my friend. Lots of those types of people are weeded out through peewee, then highschool, and college. Those guys take massive collisions that can really rock you hard (trust me, i know). And being from that type of background certainly already assumes that they have some type of fighter mentally.

 

[rjmbrd]

GSP was both

He's arguably the best combination of physical gifts, solid technical knowledge and fight IQ.

Everyone at the UFC level has one of those components, many have two, very few have all three. Georges, Jones, Weidman... handful of others along the way.

 

[IBeLurkin]

I understand it doesn't go hand in hand, but the point was that people say that "jacked" heavyweights cannot have the cardio to hang in MMA. Point is that they'd be more capable than some of the fat heavyweights we see. I addressed mental side in another post, but I'll respond and edit in later so it's all in one spot.

"mental" side is person to person. Being an athlete doesn't ensure the mental capacity to fight. But if all things are equal, identical twins but one is much more athletic than the other, we'll almost always see the athletic one win in a fight. Now I know that's a shitty point, but what I mean to say is "toughness" isn't an exclusive trait to unathletic people. All things things otherwise the same, the athletic version of a person will always be better at sports, including mma, than an unathletic version of that same person.

Do you think Brock lost his fights because he wasn't athletic enough?

 

[Speckoh]

Right, it's not always the "best" in terms of skills, fighters taht make it to the UFC. It's a combination of skills and athleticism. That's why we see a young and developing Jon Jones run through the UFC when he first entered - against world class veterans.

I had my eyes on Bones for awhile before he won the belt. he's the perfect example of a fighter with pure athleticism and skills and that's why he was P4P the best and still is. First off, he's born with a freakish physique. He's a lhw guy who's reach is equal to the tallest fighter in the hw division. I notice that with greatness comes lots of haters for some reason, and I have friends who complain that the only reason he wins is because of that reach. I say 'Don't be a hater, what we're witnessing is human evolution!' :wink:

 

[Zeppeling]

1. You have a true passion for martial arts and feel unmotivated by other sports. (McGregor)

2. You're too individualistic for team sports. (Jones)

3. You're too small/big for the sports that pay well in your country. (Demetrius Johnson, Aldo)

4. You're athletically talented enough for football but were never involved in it because you've been in wrestling programs since the age of 4 or 6. Therefore, the skills you accumulated make it more sensible to make it big in MMA than be a late-starter in football. (Daniel Cormier, Dan Henderson)

Believe it or not, some people actually love fighting.

Jones is a great example of athleticism. Both of his brothers are upper tier NFL players. Jones (the lesser of even those athletes *admittedly*) chose MMA and is CLEARLY a cut above the rest. Who knows how many Jones lurk in football pads? And while I agree that even the best athletes in the NFL ride the bench (1st round busts happen), it'd be dumb to ignore the talent that resides in a sport that controls the market of all top athletic, aggressive, competitive males. No other sport can really say that at the level of the NFL. I imagine that there are perhaps HUNDREDS of heavyweights in the NFL that could beat UFC HW champ with training.

 

[Tsar]

Don't forget that the same "can't handle being hit/hitting" goes for NFL players to. That's no candy ass sport, my friend. Lots of those types of people are weeded out through peewee, then highschool, and college. Those guys take massive collisions that can really rock you hard (trust me, i know). And being from that type of background certainly already assumes that they have some type of fighter mentally.

i'm not saying it's a candy-ass sport, but it's one thing to go from wearing helmets and pads and another to be literally punched and kicked in the face or to have to spend years learning how to deal with someone on top of you--not everyone likes rolling around with dudes. meanwhile, in football, action restarts about every six seconds. in a fight, you gotta deal with shit on your own for five minutes. totally different conditioning, totally different mentality. i'm just saying all this because we had football players come out to wrestle and sort of drift off for various reasons. other guys who had done both sports for long periods were a different matter and they were great.

 

[ALAN PARTRIDGE]

He's arguably the best combination of physical gifts, solid technical knowledge and fight IQ.

Everyone at the UFC level has one of those components, many have two, very few have all three. Georges, Jones, Weidman... handful of others along the way.

Diaz fan agrees with me

 

[BSquared]

Hoping to start a discussion regarding the trend of Sherdogs using the phrase "A level athlete" and making claims that the united states best athletes "choose" the NFL/NBA over MMA.

My point of view is that.

A) Athletes don't decide to go to the NFL/NBA over MMA just on a decision, it's more so the fact that those people play Football and Basketball from elementary school and decide to go that route because it's where a lifetime of skill and practice leads them. People very rarely start boxing at a young age, so there is a disconnect between measuring athletic prowess from fighting ability. Some people do start wresting very young, and as a result a lot of very very highly regarded wrestlers fight in MMA, from all americans, to NCAA champions, to even Olympic competitors. And almost nobody starts training MMA at an early age - So I think it's reasonable to assume "A Level Athletes", as measured by football and basketball success don't avoid MMA because of the money, but rather because they have spent a lifetime playing a specific sport

Hypothetical question to prove this point: Do you think Lebron James, after being an amazing high school basketball player, would decide to start training MMA if he was offered 10 million per fight? I believe he would stick to the sport he knows

B) Pro teams draft a player based on a combination of skill and athleticism. I'd venture that the people with the fastest run times and strongest lifts are sometimes not drafted, because they are not as skilled as other players who are still athletic, but not "the most athletic". - I think it's reasonable to assume the NFL/NBA don't just pick the best athletes, but the most skilled players

Hypothetical question to prove this point: Do you think Bret Farve or Kobe Bryant, 2 of the best in there sport, were the most athletic players of there era? I believe they were not

C) Being the more athletic person, doesn't win fights. Do you think Griffen was more athletic than Rampage? Machida more athletic than Rashad? Rua more athletic than Machida?

TUF 10 had 4 former NFL players, including a #1 draft pick. Yet Roy Nelson won, perhaps the least athletic person on the show.

Griffin beat him pretty bad at Horse...

 

[IBeLurkin]

1. You have a true passion for martial arts and feel unmotivated by other sports. (McGregor)

2. You're too individualistic for team sports. (Jones)

3. You're too small/big for the sports that pay well in your country. (Demetrius Johnson, Aldo)

4. You're athletically talented enough for football but were never involved in it because you've been in wrestling programs since the age of 4 or 6. Therefore, the skills you accumulated make it more sensible to make it big in MMA than be a late-starter in football. (Daniel Cormier, Dan Henderson)

Believe it or not, some people actually love fighting.

Your first point is really the only one that stands up. Some of the greatest team sports players of all time are the most egomaniacal people you could imagine. There have also been very small and very big hugely successful team sports players. And wrestling is a fantastic base for American football, it helps big time.