Did Olympic wrestling's stock go down last night?

[RB777]

DC is what, 36? Jones is in his prime in mid-20s. Huge difference.

Dan said he would beat his ass despite that. Now I guess he knows the difference.

 

[Dragonseeker]

People laugh when Jones said he would wrestle with Cormier, but I did believe in that. Seeing Romero - a olympian - being outwrestled by Brunson and Hendo being outwrestled by Jake Shields made veery clear in my mind that pure wrestling is totally different than wrestling in MMA. And that a olympian could very well being outwrestled inside the octagon.

Would Romeo, Henderson, and Cormier have been out wrestled if they were in their peak Olympic condition and age?

I think it would be very interesting to see how Henry Cejudo does.

 

[RB777]

I think cardio and those body blows had a lot to say for it. Look at the final round big TD that DC got. It looked like it took every ounce of energy and strength he had in his body to do that. After that he did nothing for the rest of the round. JBJ's wrestling was easily good enough so that DC would only be able to out wrestle him by overpowering him and out grinding him, but he just didn't have the cardio to do that.

The other part that plays a factor was the threat of elbows. When attempting to get a better position in the clinches DC had to be aware of the elbows. I noticed many times that DC let go of an attempt to better his position while they were clinched because JBJ's threw an elbow. DC was good at avoiding many of them but it really stopped him working his clinch effectively. It's hard to dig for an underhook when your opponents response is to throw a brutal elbow over the top as you do it. DC's response was to duck the elbow but then he had to give up on getting the underhook. And JBJ's used his knees well as DC tried to establish a clinch.

This, and Jones was also threatening to do that nasty shoulder crank that he jacked up Glover with every time he got the chance.

Gave Dan a lot of things to worry about that I don't think he had done to him before.

 

[RB777]

Would Romeo, Henderson, and Cormier have been out wrestled if they were in their peak Olympic condition and age?

I think it would be very interesting to see how Henry Cejudo does.

That talented guy has weight cutting demons.

 

[RB777]

It's like people forgot what GSP did to wrestlers, and he had zero wrestling background, whereas Jones did it his entire life. Of course it translates, but MMA is its own sport.

Maybe this will even make people think twice before they assume Karelin would run through every MMA fighter of all time with ease.

GSP and Jones are on another level with their fight and wrestling IQ.

Karelin could have a Lesnar vs Mir 1 experience.

 

[Meathead Jock]

No, Jones wrestling stock went up, and he still would have gotten worked at the Olympic level.

This.
Jones is a high level wrestler as he was offered a scholarship by the best coach in college wrestling right now, but he cut his wrestling career short due to various reasons before we could find out just how good it is. Last night we found out it was pretty damn great, but I attribute his wrestling offensive successes to DC's depleted gas tank more than to a straight up wrestling advantage.

Jones eliminated the doubters thoughts though that his wrestling might not be that great anymore, as we haven't seen him need to use it i awhile

 

[HOLA]

Guy with better wrestling credentials get outwrestled by guys with worse credentials fairly regularly. Munoz wasn't saved against Weidman. Davis wasn't saved against Rashad. Moraga wasn't saved against DJ. MMA is just different.

That's a bad examplle. All those guys(I dunno about he flyweights) were All-American(Rashad missed it by one match, in a very stacked year, and beat Gregg Jones, a college wrestling GOAT.)

Different years have different talent levels, and the tournament is only a snapshot that isn't necessarily indicative of your overall year.

Chael was unranked in 1998. He became an All-American, by going 3-2 in the tournament. \

In 1999, he was ranked, again went 3-2, but missed All-American by one match.

Redshirted in 2000, came back in 2001. He was ranked highly, top 5 during the year. Was #6 seed, but lost by a point in the opening match. Chael was overall a better wrestler in 2001 than 1998, but was an All-American in 1998.

It's not so simple that Phil Davis was #1, Weidman was #3, therefore Davis>Weidman.

Anyway, DC was 15-0, won the SF GP, and his wrestling served him well during his career. Now all of a sudden he loses one match, and "Olympic wrestling is irrelevant in this sport! It means NOTHING!"

 

[HOLA]

Olympic wrestling never had high stock in MMA anyway.

Only a couple of guys like Lindland and Romero successfully made the transition. It's a different sport, and once guys have committed to becoming an olympic wrestler it's going to dictate how they train and the fighter they become.

They spend years learning sport-specific techniques that don't work in MMA, where as the guys that go straight from collegiate wrestling to MMA can hone their skills earlier and drop the stuff that doesn't work.

The only Olympic wrestlers who did anything more than dabble in MMA, and had a substantial career, are Coleman, Henderson, Lindland, Cormier, Askren, Vila, Romero and what looks to be Cejudo now.

All have had much success.And many of them didn't even start until their 30's.

 

[snizzar]

Nah, it just made me more impressed with Jones. He honestly probably could've made it to the olympics had he not forgone a 4yr university.

Anyways, two major factors about the wrestling last night I think many overlook is first, Jones was easily the bully/physically dominant of the two. I mentioned it elsewhere, but clinch wise Jon was able to push DC's back to the cage continuously. DC couldn't answer Jon's 2 on 1 wrist control/grips, was unable to break Jon's posture, and unable to even disengage from the clinch unless Jon wanted to. His only TD he threw the kitchen sink, but still barely finished it. He was pretty much forced to admit that in the Ariel interview that the biggest surprise he could say was Jon's clinch/strength.

The second factor is the use of the cage to trap/eliminate sprawls and movement. This is where "MMA wrestling" diverts away from the standard. Jones always sets his doubles that way. Ties up, gets his guy's back to the cage, dive under for the finish. He similarly completed a TD against Rampage that way. Maybe besides a brief 1st rd throw, Jon couldn't complete a TD from the center. That's where DC's skills transferred best. The cage really is the bully's playground. Some other MMA examples I've seen are Jacare vs Moose, where Moose thwarted Jacare's telegraphed TDs with a sprawl, until Jacare trapped him up and muscled him down with ugly TDs. GSP vs Penn is also a good example showing the smaller guy getting fucked. Obviously you typically need high level tech to achieve this though. The size just makes it that much easier. It's what I think anyways.

 

[BigBear94]

I think people need to remember to not take too much from high-level wrestling credentials. It means they've accomplished lots in another sport, but have not proved anything in MMA yet. So many people come in with high level wrestling chops and get outwrestled by MMA guys with lesser credentials Josh Koscheck, Jon Fitch, Mark Munoz, Phil Davis, DC. Wrestling and MMA are two very different sports, and being good at one does not imply you will be good at the other. That being said, I think DC's MMA wrestling is very good, JBJ's is just better.

 

[benibloom]

I'm surprised this is getting so little attention.

Jones took down a 2x Olympic wrestler three times and Cormier was not able to return the favor.

He beat DC at his own game despite months of speculation that he'd have to rely on long range attacks to have any chance to win.

I WAS impressed by his performance (use GSP voice)

4 times

 

[B0mbSquad]

DC was gassed. It isn't like BJ Penn was worse as boxing or BJJ in the 3rd round in comparison to the 1st. Cardio greatly limits your ability to perform, regardless of skill level.

 

[ligthandshadow]

I think it went down when Hendo got outwrestled by Ninja and Kondo.

 

[Thrawn33]

Do not neglect the fact that the rules of folkstyle (aka collegiate) wrestling tends to translate better to MMA than freestyle and Greco-Roman.

There are many examples of US wrestlers who have had great success in collegiate wrestling only to have marginal success in freestyle/Greco and vice versa.

To an outsider its all "wrestling" and this is true to an extent, but at the highest levels of competition, those differences matter.

 

[WrestlinganJudo]

One good thing about Sherdog forums, is the wealth of wrestling knowledge of those people who post on this site.

With that said, do you think Cormier's performance lowered Olympic wresting's stock in the UFC last night?

Many people were probably surprised at the Junior College wrestler getting more take downs on the Olympic wrestler than the other way around.

A couple of things. I and a few others have posted a number of times that folkstyle transfers over to MMA better than freestyle.

Next the last freestyle tournament for Cormier was more than seven years ago. We all don't age equally well and I think age might be just as much of a factor. Also a weight cut hurt Cormier at one time in the past do he does not pull down to being lean anymore.

I am not saying that a young Cormier who moved to the UFC at a younger age would win or lose but I do wonder.

 

[HOLA]

I think it went down when Hendo got outwrestled by Ninja and Kondo.

Neither of those happened. At all. Henderson was outstruck by Kondo, and his multiple takedowns and grappling superiority are what won him the fight, particularly the last one, where he dropped Kondo right on his head.

Against Ninja, Rua caught a knee and took him down, and stayed on top for a long time, doing absolutely nothing. Dan also ended on his back after going for a guillotine. Dan scored multiple takedowns, caught him in a front headlock position multiple times where he delievered knees to the head etc.

 

[Madmick]

It's proof that Jones' already lauded wrestling was even more underrated.

This all day.

 

[SlicerDM]

ill tell you this, when i heard someone was an olympic wrestler i had major respect for them, but now I have as much respect for them as a state champ wrestler in terms of fighting since jones was only a college wrestler and he destroyed cormier

Well thank god your respect means very little around here, "lilwayne209" :icon_chee:icon_chee

 

[RockUmSockUm]

I'm surprised this is getting so little attention.

Jones took down a 2x Olympic wrestler three times and Cormier was not able to return the favor.

He beat DC at his own game despite months of speculation that he'd have to rely on long range attacks to have any chance to win.

I WAS impressed by his performance (use GSP voice)

DC hasn't been an Olympic caliber wrestler for what, 6 years? Jones did out-wrestle him but DC blew his wad after 3 rounds.

 

[Pr0digy]

Not at all, I think MMA wrestling is a whole different animal. Way too many variables.