Cory Sandhagen is likely not a size bully, stop pretending otherwise

[bigmacbub]

Dudes almost 6 foot tall at 135. He's ducking his real weight class. Play all the bs semantics you want. He should be at FW.

 

[moosaev]

Who specifically are you talking about? People have brought up Jones facing smaller fighters for years and calling for him to fight at heavyweight.

I understand that, but I've had debates where those that argue Jon Jones is the GOAT often site Khabib as a weight bully in order to diminish him. They claim he can't be GOAT unless he moves up to welterweight. They never apply that same logic to Jon Jones. They seem to forget that Jon Jones has only ever fought at LHW, he STILL hasn't officially fought at HW.

 

[Masturbin]

Agree I was surprised with the size bully comment after the Tj fight.
Tj was the one that bullied the smaller no chin

 

[blaseblah]

I understand that, but I've had debates where those that argue Jon Jones is the GOAT often site Khabib as a weight bully in order to diminish him. They claim he can't be GOAT unless he moves up to welterweight. They never apply that same logic to Jon Jones. They seem to forget that Jon Jones has only ever fought at LHW, he STILL hasn't officially fought at HW.

Khabib isnt the GOAT because his lack of longevity at the top with only 3 title defenses. Can you point to anyone making that specific argument?

 

[Th3Sav4ge]

Short version: because around half of his opponents are recorded to have weighed in heavier than Sandhagen on fight night and height and length is not the same as size, because if that was the case, the giraffe - not the african elephant - would be the world's biggest extant land animal.

Long version, made with the help of the excellent thread named "Compilation of Fighters' Cage Weight (Redux)" by @acannxr:
In the thread named here, Sandhagen actually even has the 6th lowest fight night weight out of the 30 people who fight or have fought in his division, meaning that of those listed, 80% are bigger than him.
Thus far, Cory Sandhagen, who has tipped the scales at 149.2 pounds on fight night at bantamweight, has faced the following people inside the UFC, with the guys whose names are fat being recorded as weighing in heavier than him at bantamweight:
- Austin Arnett (no numbers available)
- Iuri Alcantara (154.6 pounds)
- Mario Bautista (no numbers available)
- John Lineker (has missed weight at 135, though this is *not* definitive proof that he's a big 135er.)
- Raphael Assuncao (153.2 pounds)
- Aljamain Sterling (no numbers available)
- Marlon Moraes (155 pounds)
- Frankie Edgar (no numbers available)
- TJ Dillashaw (149.5 pounds)

Now of course it could be the case, that everyone i don't have the numbers for actually is a smaller 135er than Cory is, but consider this:
80% of the bantamweights we have numbers for have weighed in heavier than Sandhagen and regarding those he fought, they were either heavier, we don't have numbers for them, they missed weight, or even fought as much as two divisions above, though Frankie Edgar is in all fairness undersized for 155 and most likely even 145 by modern standards.

So what else is there to say?
I think the only instances in which the discussion about size are warranted is if a fighter weighs in notably heavier than his opponent(s) and/or his opponent(s) is only of comparable size due to noticably more body fat, with an extreme example of the latter being BJ Penn fighting Lyoto Machida (though it should be noted, that even a 191 pound BJ Penn was sign. smaller than Lyoto Machida, who weighed 225 pounds in their fight).
Other, partially less extreme examples would be BJ Penn at welterweight, Daniel Cormier at heavyweight and light heavyweight, Kelvin Gastelum at middleweight.
For those that are now tempted to say that both Daniel Cormier and Kelvin Gastelum have missed weight or struggled making it at light heavyweight and middleweight respectively:
For one, it is just easier to cut weight for some people than others (IIRC, Shane Burgos never missed weight at 145, yet Aldo often had trouble) and more importantly, Kelvin Gastelum and Daniel Cormier, would even at a body fat percentage that is considered average amongst fighters, absolutely be able to make welterweight/light heavyweight and this is with taking into consideration that they have wide shoulders and a large ribcage and thus a sturdy skeletal frame for their height.

Now i expect a lot of people to say or think something along the lines of "Okay, so he's not a size bully, whatever, but he's definitely a length bully!" to which i'll say the following:
In striking sports, it is generally accepted, that height and reach, in particular the latter, is always and clearly more of an advantage than a disadvantage, but this is in my opinion significantly less the case in mixed martial arts - certainly in regards to height - and considering that most champions have a long reach or at least a long reach for their height, but aren't necessarily tall for their divisions, this trend seems to reflect that.
Regardless of the fact that possible hypocrisy doesn't change the truth of statements, one should be consistent, so if you criticize Sandhagen for his length, you should do the same for Jon Jones, Israel Adesanya and other fighters, but then again, ask yourself the following:
Do you criticize Ngannou for his absurd power?
Do you criticize Garbrandt for his speed?
Do you criticize Usman for his cardio?
Do you criticize Nate Diaz for his chin?

Don't get me wrong, saying it's impressive when a "T-Rex armed" fighter beats the lengthy striker on the feet is both understandable and true and obviously it is advantageous in certain instances if you're long, especially in terms of reach, but if it was as such an advantage in MMA in general, we'd see much more lanky fighters, even with the small pool of talent of MMA taken into the equation.
Long arms and wide shoulders do mean that it's easier to hit an opponent without getting hit yourself, but it also comes at the cost of decreased strength (in other news, Jon Jones is bad at lateral raises) and with height it's not any different:
More height is advantageous in clinch positions and on the feet your opponent has to punch upwards and a longer distance, but more height (mostly) also means a higher centre of gravity which can negatively affect wrestling, decreased ability to duck and roll under punches and due to the fact that we have weight classes it also affects strength in general, since a guy who's taller than another guy can't endlessly put the same amount of muscle relative to his frame on as the other guy, which is why the strongest guys in a division are mostly of average or smaller height for their weightclass.

Conclusion/TL;DR:​

Cory Sandhagen seems to be one of the smaller bantamweights, hence is not a size bully, judging by the data we have.
In regards to him being a "length bully", it is true that while his length overall is definitely an advantage, those attributes don't come at the expense of nothing either.

Bonus:

Spoiler: Some 135ers with a longer reach than Sandhagen

Some bantamweights with a longer reach than Cory Sandhagen (who has a 70"/178 cm reach):
Andre Ewell - 75" (190 cm)
Rob Font - 71" (180 cm)
Kyler Phillips - 72" (183 cm)
Sean O'Malley - 72" (183 cm)

(PS: it has been said that i am "white knighting" Cory Sandhagen ever since his loss. This is absolutely true. All of it.)

i feel like u are arguing against the small minority. some people have said things about coreys size but its not really the narrative around a sandhagen fight. sure some people are gonna say it, just kind of ignore those people

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

he has the frame of max holloway, who should be fighting at lw, but fights at bw. he is the definition of a weight bully

If he had the same frame as Holloway he wouldn't make 135 let alone easily. Height and length are not the only measurements.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

Dudes almost 6 foot tall at 135. He's ducking his real weight class. Play all the bs semantics you want. He should be at FW.

He would be significantly smaller in mass at FW than his opponents. He has never missed weight or had a hard time cutting weight. He is tall but skinny as fuck. MMA has weight classes not height classes.

 

[hohner]

Tell me more about elephants and giraffes.

 

[Dirge]

I never called Jon Jones a weight bully, so your comparison didn't really make sense. Weight advantage is only one kind of physical advantage, height and reach advantage are also important. What i said was Jon Jones has been taller and had longer reach than the vast majority of his opponents. So why does Jon Jones get a pass for that, but Khabib doesn't get a pass for weight advantage (which he doesn't have in the first place)? They're both physical advantages that are ostensibly contributory factors in the fight.

You are over the place here bud.

Jones is 6'4. So is Gus, so is Reyes.

There are plenty of tall guys at 205. Jiri is 6'3 for example.

So now its just Jones' having a reach advantage?

 

[moosaev]

You are over the place here bud.

Jones is 6'4. So is Gus, so is Reyes.

There are plenty of tall guys at 205. Jiri is 6'3 for example.

So now its just Jones' having a reach advantage?

Gus and Reyes are the only two tall guys he’s fought, all the guys he fought on the way up were manlets.

 

[ThePatriot]

Hes taller then DC

The weight classes need height limits, 5'11 should be banned under 170

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

Jon Jones on the other hand, is almost never called out by these same fans for being significantly taller and having longer reach than the vast majority of his opponents. Jon Jones racked up a bunch of title defenses against manlets, but you'll only ever hear about Khabib being a weight bully.

Lol? Jon Jones has been criticized for a decade now for fighting at LHW instead of HW. He's probably the most consistently criticized fighter in the UFC on this issue. Using him as your example is silly.

 

[Dirge]

Gus and Reyes are the only two tall guys he’s fought, all the guys he fought on the way up were manlets.

You are right!

Anthony Smith 6'3"
OSP 6'3"
Glover 6'2"
Sonnen 6'1"
Machida 6'1"
Rampage 6'1"
Shogun 6'1"
Bader 6'2"
Vera 6'3"
Hamill 6'2"
O'Brien 6'3"
Bonnar 6'3"


Tons of manlets...

 

[MMAFanCal]

He is a 5'11" guy fighting at 135 lbs. Not sure how he makes the weight (despite the lanky frame), but yeah he is a weight bully. At 155 lbs, he will get his clock cleaned.

 

[FIghtxIQ]

You are right!

Anthony Smith 6'3"
OSP 6'3"
Glover 6'2"
Sonnen 6'1"
Machida 6'1"
Rampage 6'1"
Shogun 6'1"
Bader 6'2"
Vera 6'3"
Hamill 6'2"
O'Brien 6'3"
Bonnar 6'3"


Tons of manlets...

You have to compare height and reach as well. Plus Jones is 6'4''. Comparing him to 6'1'' fighters is like comparing 6ft fighters to 5'9'' fighters. It makes a huge difference.

 

[Dirge]

You have to compare height and reach as well. Plus Jones is 6'4''. Comparing him to 6'1'' fighters is like comparing 6ft fighters to 5'9'' fighters. It makes a huge difference.

5 of the guys I mentioned he fought are 1" shorter, add Reyes and Gus are the same height.

Height isn't an indicator of success in MMA. Otherwise DC would never have been champ in the two biggest weight classes.

Hell look at the fight we watched Saturday

 

[jx820]

There's no such thing as a weight bully. It's a term whiners use to bellyache when someone is better at the cut than their favorite fighter. Everyone is given the same opportunity on the scale.

 

[FIghtxIQ]

5 of the guys I mentioned he fought are 1" shorter, add Reyes and Gus are the same height.

Height isn't an indicator of success in MMA. Otherwise DC would never have been champ in the two biggest weight classes.

Hell look at the fight we watched Saturday

Height is an advantage and so is reach. Some fighters are just good enough to nullify those advantages but that doesn't mean they aren't advantages.

 

[fortheo]

Haha, I'm not a Cory fan, but you're definitely right in this regard @Ironnik94 . As a fellow tall skinny guy, I can relate to this thread.

 

[fortheo]

Height is an advantage and so is reach. Some fighters are just good enough to nullify those advantages but that doesn't mean they aren't advantages.

All body types have their advantages and disadvantages.