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Cory Sandhagen is likely not a size bully, stop pretending otherwise

Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by Ironnik94, Jul 27, 2021.

  1. Ironnik94 Silver Belt

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    Short version: because around half of his opponents are recorded to have weighed in heavier than Sandhagen on fight night and height and length is not the same as size, because if that was the case, the giraffe - not the african elephant - would be the world's biggest extant land animal.

    Long version, made with the help of the excellent thread named "Compilation of Fighters' Cage Weight (Redux)" by @acannxr:
    In the thread named here, Sandhagen actually even has the 7th* lowest fight night weight out of the 30 people who fight or have fought in his division, meaning that of those listed, almost 80% are bigger than him.
    Thus far, Cory Sandhagen, who has tipped the scales at 149.2 pounds on fight night at bantamweight, has faced the following people inside the UFC, with the guys whose names are fat being recorded as weighing in heavier than him at bantamweight:
    - Austin Arnett (no numbers available)
    - Iuri Alcantara (154.6 pounds)
    - Mario Bautista (no numbers available)
    - John Lineker (has missed weight at 135, though this is *not* definitive proof that he's a big 135er.)
    - Raphael Assuncao (153.2 pounds)
    - Aljamain Sterling (no numbers available)
    - Marlon Moraes (155 pounds)
    - Frankie Edgar (no numbers available)
    - TJ Dillashaw (149.5 pounds)

    *(Initially had Cory listed as the 6th lightest 135er on the list, but i did a mistake while counting)
    Now of course it could be the case, that everyone i don't have the numbers for actually is a smaller 135er than Cory is, but consider this:
    80% of the bantamweights we have numbers for have weighed in heavier than Sandhagen and regarding those he fought, they were either heavier, we don't have numbers for them, they missed weight, or even fought as much as two divisions above, though Frankie Edgar is in all fairness undersized for 155 and most likely even 145 by modern standards.

    So what else is there to say?

    I think the only instances in which the discussion about size are warranted is if a fighter weighs in notably heavier than his opponent(s) and/or his opponent(s) is only of comparable size due to noticably more body fat, with an extreme example of the latter being BJ Penn fighting Lyoto Machida (though it should be noted, that even a 191 pound BJ Penn was sign. smaller than Lyoto Machida, who weighed 225 pounds in their fight).
    Other, partially less extreme examples would be BJ Penn at welterweight, Daniel Cormier at heavyweight and light heavyweight, Kelvin Gastelum at middleweight.
    For those that are now tempted to say that both Daniel Cormier and Kelvin Gastelum have missed weight or struggled making it at light heavyweight and middleweight respectively:
    For one, it is just easier to cut weight for some people than others (IIRC, Shane Burgos never missed weight at 145, yet Aldo often had trouble) and more importantly, Kelvin Gastelum and Daniel Cormier, would even at a body fat percentage that is considered average amongst fighters, absolutely be able to make welterweight/light heavyweight and this is with taking into consideration that they have wide shoulders and a large ribcage and thus a sturdy skeletal frame for their height.

    Now i expect a lot of people to say or think something along the lines of "Okay, so he's not a size bully, whatever, but he's definitely a length bully!" to which i'll say the following:
    In striking sports, it is generally accepted, that height and reach, in particular the latter, is always and clearly more of an advantage than a disadvantage, but this is in my opinion significantly less the case in mixed martial arts - certainly in regards to height - and considering that most champions have a long reach or at least a long reach for their height, but aren't necessarily tall for their divisions, this trend seems to reflect that.
    Regardless of the fact that possible hypocrisy doesn't change the truth of statements, one should be consistent, so if you criticize Sandhagen for his length, you should do the same for Jon Jones, Israel Adesanya and other fighters, but then again, ask yourself the following:
    Do you criticize Ngannou for his absurd power?
    Do you criticize Garbrandt for his speed?
    Do you criticize Usman for his cardio?
    Do you criticize Nate Diaz for his chin?

    Don't get me wrong, saying it's impressive when a "T-Rex armed" fighter beats the lengthy striker on the feet is both understandable and true and obviously it is advantageous in certain instances if you're long, especially in terms of reach, but if it was as such an advantage in MMA in general, we'd see much more lanky fighters, even with the small pool of talent of MMA taken into the equation.
    Long arms and wide shoulders do mean that it's easier to hit an opponent without getting hit yourself, but it also comes at the cost of decreased strength (in other news, Jon Jones is bad at lateral raises) and with height it's not any different:
    More height is advantageous in clinch positions and on the feet your opponent has to punch upwards and a longer distance, but more height (mostly) also means a higher centre of gravity which can negatively affect wrestling, decreased ability to duck and roll under punches and due to the fact that we have weight classes it also affects strength in general, since a guy who's taller than another guy can't endlessly put the same amount of muscle relative to his frame on as the other guy, which is why the strongest guys in a division are mostly of average or smaller height for their weightclass.

    Conclusion/TL;DR:
    Cory Sandhagen seems to be one of the smaller bantamweights, hence is not a size bully, judging by the data we have.
    In regards to him being a "length bully", it is true that while his length overall is definitely an advantage, those attributes don't come at the expense of nothing either.

    Bonus:
    Some bantamweights with a longer reach than Cory Sandhagen (who has a 70"/178 cm reach):
    Andre Ewell - 75" (190 cm)
    Rob Font - 71" (180 cm)
    Kyler Phillips - 72" (183 cm)
    Sean O'Malley - 72" (183 cm)

    (PS: it has been said that i am "white knighting" Cory Sandhagen ever since his loss. This is absolutely true. All of it.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2021
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  2. Thesnake101 Think about it, it worth it.

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    So he's a lanklet?
     
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  3. gluehuffer1776 Brown Belt

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    he has the frame of max holloway, who should be fighting at lw, but fights at bw. he is the definition of a weight bully
     
  4. Slatersan Black Belt

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    If someone can make weight and u complain they are way bigger than you then you are in the wrong division.
     
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  5. moosaev Black Belt

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    The "weight bully" label is just a way to diminish fighters you don't like by pointing to circumstantial physical advantages. Its almost always a bad faith tactic.

    One example of how the "weight bully" label is used in bad faith:

    a - Khabib is considered a weight bully by Jon Jones/Conor nut huggers because he has trouble cutting weight (even though there's no evidence that Khabib weights significantly more than other lightweights out of camp)
    b - Jon Jones on the other hand, is almost never called out by these same fans for being significantly taller and having longer reach than the vast majority of his opponents. Jon Jones racked up a bunch of title defenses against manlets, but you'll only ever hear about Khabib being a weight bully.
     
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  6. Karelinator Bulgarian pursuittt Platinum Member

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    Maybe "height bully", or whatever, since it's hard to be weight bully if you weigh less than your opponent
     
  7. Ironnik94 Silver Belt

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    Sandhagen is literally smaller than 80% of all bantamweights we know the cage weight of and that includes TJ Dillashaw, even if by a small margin.

    But also: height and reach aren't the sole factors that determine size.

    If that was the case, DC should be fighting at 155, if not lower and while DC could (at a body fat that is considered average for fighters) definitely fight at 185, if not 170, he is definitely larger framed than Max Holloway.

    Max Holloway struggling with weight cuts isn't due to his height and reach, but due to his weight. Kattar, Burgos and Barboza are as big, if not bigger than him, yet i don't remember them struggling much to make 135, though like i said, some fighters also naturally deal better with cutting weight.
     
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  8. Vampire life Green Belt

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    If he’s under 6’4” he is.
     
  9. Dirge Gold Belt

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    Which one of them cuts more weight proportionate to their body mass though? Lets assume Khabib was in the 170-175 range fight night and Jones was known to be around 220 fight night. That means Khabib rehydrated about 13% of his mass after cutting. Jones on the other hand would be around 7%.

    That's quite a bit of difference. I personally feel that if you can make the weight you can fight and Jones never had an issue making 205 while Khabib had issues several times.
     
  10. Vampire life Green Belt

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    Max fights at fw. Just saying. I think sand needs to at fw too
     
  11. VinceArch I am all of me.

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    No, that's George Roop.
     
  12. moosaev Black Belt

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    Where's the proof that Khabib cuts more weight than his opponents? I'm still waiting for evidence of this. Based on accounts from the LW fighters themselves it seems that Dustin, Khabib, and Tony all have very similar walking around weight (they all vary between 185-195, Tony once showed on instagram that he weighed 200lbs). Conor might be a bit smaller, but not much. So why is Khabib the only one thats accused of being a weight bully? The fact that he has trouble cutting weight is not evidence that he's bigger than them. How easily fighters cut weight is largely based on individual biochemical variables. We can both weight the same, but I cut weight more easily than you.
     
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  13. HI SCOTT NEWMAN ✔ Cats are the only hope for planet survival ✔

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    Too many people don't know the difference between big and tall lol, he is tall but very skinny.

    For example I have seen Glover and Reyes in person and Glover is a way bigger guy. Skinny doesn't mean you're bigger lol, are they taller? yes. Taller is the correct word
     
  14. koquerelle Silver Belt

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    I give zero shit about that unless you miss weight more than once. If you can make weight, by all means fight at that WC.
     
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  15. Dirge Gold Belt

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    ? What are you talking about? You are the one that compared Khabib to Jones. I wasn't comparing Khabib to anyone in his weight class.

    If you don't like people pointing out facts about your comments, perhaps don't make them?
     
  16. User4908 Banned Banned

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    A 2-2 lanklet*


    <{titihmm}>
     
  17. moosaev Black Belt

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    I never called Jon Jones a weight bully, so your comparison didn't really make sense. Weight advantage is only one kind of physical advantage, height and reach advantage are also important. What i said was Jon Jones has been taller and had longer reach than the vast majority of his opponents. So why does Jon Jones get a pass for that, but Khabib doesn't get a pass for weight advantage (which he doesn't have in the first place)? They're both physical advantages that are ostensibly contributory factors in the fight.
     
  18. moosaev Black Belt

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    Not being able to make weight doesn't necessarily mean you're bigger than your opponents, some people have trouble making weight due to their own biological quirks. Not everyone cuts weight the same. Khabib is roughly the same size as Tony and Poirier.
     
  19. Kryptt Dead Belt Platinum Member

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    Also dig a lil into "frames" and bone size. Oddly I found I should be bigger based on muh bones.

    Course I didn't dig much into the site to see if it was super cereal or bro-science.
     
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  20. koquerelle Silver Belt

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    I know that. Read my post again. It doesn't change what I said.
     
  21. moosaev Black Belt

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    Sorry, i thought you were implying that if u miss weight more than once then you're a weight bully.
     

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