BETA Academy owner explains ending relationship with Lloyd Irvin

[illbert]

You need 500 paying customers at 166 per month to make a revenue of 1 million dollars. Then pay rent, water electricity, wages. Then tax.

Beta Academy used to be housed in a church basement. I know that church was pretty big on community outreach because they had a regular soup kitchen (at least circa 2010). It'd be interesting to know what Nakapan's rent or profit-sharing agreement there was. He could have actually had the prime setup to make a larger profit margin than an equally-sized academy that charged the same price but had to lease a standalone location. I'm no accountant but when your for-profit business is run out of a tax-exempt non-profit organization's building you may be able to do some "creative" accounting.

I'm not saying that there is anything shady with the way he ran his business (aside from what he claims himself) but it was in a unique situation that 99.9% of BJJ academies aren't in.

 

[ElKarlo]

Beta Academy used to be housed in a church basement. I know that church was pretty big on community outreach because they had a regular soup kitchen (at least circa 2010). It'd be interesting to know what Nakapan's rent or profit-sharing agreement there was. He could have actually had the prime setup to make a larger profit margin than an equally-sized academy that charged the same price but had to lease a standalone location. I'm no accountant but when your for-profit business is run out of a tax-exempt non-profit organization's building you may be able to do some "creative" accounting.

I'm not saying that there is anything shady with the way he ran his business (aside from what he claims himself) but it was in a unique situation that 99.9% of BJJ academies aren't in.

When you are operating out of a community center or a church, often you are capped at how much you can make or charge. Not sure how that fits into sales of equipment and personals, plus belt promotions.

 

[lechien]

It still lot of numbers. 500 students at 166 per month for an entire year!

 

[Spazzmaster]

This whole TLI saga reminds me of gene simco in so many ways. If i gave a shit id do a deailed comparison of the two scandals.

Gene Simco! ha ha what a blast from the past. does anyone on this forum even know the name anymore?

i appreciate the history, but actually i don't think the stories are similar

controversies aside, there is no question Lloyd Irvin is a legit grappler & coach whose methods produce top notch competitors

same could not be said for Simco

 

[Shemhazai]

"There's nothing wrong with hustling people. If you get hustled, it's your own damned fault."

And if you get raped, you probably asked for it.

 

[Pizdek]

"There's nothing wrong with hustling people. If you get hustled, it's your own damned fault."

And if you get raped, you probably asked for it.

:icon_arro +

spins, twists, bullshit hater blaming... they will use anything and everything!

 

[illbert]

Gene Simco! ha ha what a blast from the past. does anyone on this forum even know the name anymore?

i appreciate the history, but actually i don't think the stories are similar

controversies aside, there is no question Lloyd Irvin is a legit grappler & coach whose methods produce top notch competitors

same could not be said for Simco

If you've done BJJ on the East Coast from at least before 2005 you should have at least heard the name Gene Simco. Just about all of my mid-to-upstate NY friends (the epiccenter being Thornwood) talk about him like he's the Devil himself. On the one hand, I've heard from legit people that his books were at one time the best around for white/blue belts. I've never cared to read them. On the other hand, being able to explain techniques well doesn't excuse you from belt shopping with Michael Jen and Marcelo Nigue or from hazing a young blue belt student on video.

What I will say in his defense is that I think his past caused him to be unfairly pinned as the bad guy for that alleged sexual assault of a then 17-year-old. When the accusations were brought up his lynch mob was quick to spread the word on forums but when he was found not guilty of sexual assault and only fined for serving alcohol to a minor (in a room while her parents were present) everyone kept their mouth shut. The term "hater," though overly misused, holds in that case.

 

[Spazzmaster]

^ lol here we go. someone who remembers. Gene Simco benefited from being the first guy on the BJJ book market. forget about being the best around, his BJJ Basics & Master Text books were the ONLY ones around in 2002. but the dirty secret was that Brian McLaughlin (his student at the time) did most of the writing & organizing for those books

i agree Simco became a total pariah, shunned by almost all his former students, and probably attracted more hate than was warranted. but others might argue he was ground zero for the "American" bullshit influence on BJJ: sketchy belt progression, aggressive self-promotion, marketing & revenue streaming.

his school / business empire used to have its own forum. i remember his posts being massively egotistical, obsessed with money, plus he had a weird gun fetish.

 

[illbert]

^ lol here we go. someone who remembers. Gene Simco benefited from being the first guy on the BJJ book market. forget about being the best around, his BJJ Basics & Master Text books were the ONLY ones around in 2002. but the dirty secret was that Brian McLaughlin (his student at the time) did most of the writing & organizing for those books

i agree Simco became a total pariah, shunned by almost all his former students, and probably attracted more hate than was warranted. but others might argue he was ground zero for the "American" bullshit influence on BJJ: sketchy belt progression, aggressive self-promotion, marketing & revenue streaming.

his school / business empire used to have its own forum. i remember his posts being massively egotistical, obsessed with money, plus he had a weird gun fetish.

I remember in the early 2000's, before Google was mature and most likely before I even joined this forum, how his site (jiu-jitsu.net I think) was like the top BJJ search result on Yahoo. He went by the nickname "Aranha" or spider at the time. Basically, to guys like me who were trying to find out about the art he was the online source of any info from the East Coast because, like you said, he got there first.

Man, you've really caused me to go back deep in my memory. Now that I think about it, some of the marketing on his site and even the site layout reminds me of how Lloyd's sites are laid out. I'm going use the Internet Archive Wayback Machine to confirm this.

And despite Simco's dubious skills one of his students Steve Olivier was legit and I think he was Glover Teixeira's first instructor, too.

 

[seatea]

I remember in the early 2000's, before Google was mature and most likely before I even joined this forum, how his site (jiu-jitsu.net I think) was like the top BJJ search result on Yahoo. He went by the nickname "Aranha" or spider at the time. Basically, to guys like me who were trying to find out about the art he was the online source of any info from the East Coast because, like you said, he got there first.

Man, you've really caused me to go back deep in my memory. Now that I think about it, some of the marketing on his site and even the site layout reminds me of how Lloyd's sites are laid out. I'm going use the Internet Archive Wayback Machine to confirm this.

And despite Simco's dubious skills one of his students Steve Olivier was legit and I think he was Glover Teixeira's first instructor, too.

I think this is it. I see what you mean about the comparison to LI websites.

 

[SanShou01]

If Nakapan knew how Moses ran his gym, why would he have needed LI's help in the first place? He would have already known all the marketing strategies.

Yeah no crap, so why this lengthy letter about how Irvin has some kind of hold on him and bullshit? Why all this crying about how he paid all those fees, etc?

 

[SanShou01]

So the swindle is that they convince other school owners to pay big bucks to come out to these events. However, instead of delivering as advertised, the events are just giant advertisements for the next event. That is a pretty classic swindle.

Ok, then Nakapan should reimburse the fees to those other school owners then if he feels that bad about it. Saying sorry doesn't really do much.

You know what? Opening a Martial Arts gym, ain't no rocket science. Chopsockiers have been doing it for decades now in America. And thousands of years in Asia. There are tons of books from Martial Artists trying to make a buck selling the mold to their successes. There are MA organizations that do this every year for TKD, Karate, Kung-Fu and any other flavors of Chopsocky. Then they sell DVD's and trinkets along the way. This applies to just about all other types of businesses from insurance to real estate, hot dog vending, sex toys, whatever.

The main draw of Irvin, and it's a LEGITMATE one, is that he's a highly accomplished player in his game. People are buying the privilege of being able to attach their name to his. Just like how people bought in to the Gracie name. Then specific Gracies like Renzo, Ralph, Royce, Rickson, etc. Irvin is certainly used more Bally's Fitness and crap, high pressure tactics and such, I agree. But it's nothing illegal nor immoral.

You can buy a $40, How To Make Money Teaching Chopsocky book....and learn everything that Irvin knows. Irvin probably just read the same books and changed the words around. It's just Sales & Marketing. Someone like Nakapan who majored in Accounting, got his degree, got a CPA and then an MBA....would have taken many of such Sales & Marketing classes.

Just that now, Irvin's name is cancer. Detaching from Irvin is certainly the wise business move. But detaching and then shit and piss on the man's head, damn. This is where Irvin really finds out who his real friends are.

 

[SanShou01]

Sales and mkt 101 as you said.
Some people would love and some would thing it is a douchebag move.
Your customer is there to learn bjj.

Yea, other BJJ gym owners are so virtuous right and just doing it out of the goodness of their hearts right? That's why BJJ charges the most by far, of any martial art systems out there. $150-200 per person, per month with a 1-year contract. Break it and it goes to collection where they demand the rest of that $1800-2400 contract you just signed.

Ever been to a Judo club? Their fees are around $30-50 a month. Boxing gym? $50/mo.

Now you are looking at them as they can give more revenue.
In front of the rest of the paying customer, you spin the wheel and reward them.
It is the idea that a paying customer is there to provide you with more income that disturb some people.

It looks like cheesy Wheel of Fortune to me, big deal. If Irvin was a nobody and did these dumb things, yeah I'd laugh in his face. But he's not. He's the guy who trains and develops champion fighters, UFC contenders and UFC champions.

It is just the tip of iceberg.

Like I said. It is different the traditional way and we are just waiting to see the consequences of it.

And no. Showing nice cars and nice medals is not sufficient to explain such vulture attitude.

I guess you're against Capitalism. Kung-Fu, TKD, Karate, whatever....have been doing plenty of such for the last 50+ years since American GI's brought Karate to the States.

Your only complaints have been:

1. Irvin asks for REFERRALS and trains his sales people to do such from students.

2. Irvin uses some Wheel of Fortune, wheel bullshit. I think that's what you mean.

Damn, call FBI and shit.

 

[SanShou01]

lol you are funny. you started out nice and innocent, but just like devnull once you got riled up your mask slippped and your true colors showed. You sound like the guy in the facebook thread. The one claiming Nak should sell his BMW and give the money back.

(Which is one of the dumbest ideas ever)

I actually have more ties to competing gyms. I just find it distasteful how people are shitting on Irvin like this.

But you can think w/e you want, especially since you haven't the intellect to formulate valid arguments

 

[DragonofMetsu]

Wow 90 pages about Lloyd Irvine, dude's head must be the size of Texas by now.

 

[SanShou01]

Sanshou01, there's a ton of stuff in your posts that's simply inaccurate. Nak didn't go straight to TLI after Yamasaki's. He first got his black belt from Pedro Sauer. After he ended up with TLI, he stopped training for a few years after an injury. He started training again and Dalla urged him to open up BETA...

He went with Moses.

Tell me, when did he leave Yamasaki and when did Moses leave Yamasaki? Then I'm going to ask you more questions about this.

Now tell, what year did he join Team Lloyd Irvin then?

...Which by the way, has been around for just shy of 5 years... So Nakapan hasn't been "making money off of TLI" for 10 years. Further, BETA didn't implement TLI's high pressure sales model until 2 years ago. It brought new students to the school, but it scared away a few brown belts, a purple belt, and a guy with a decade of wrestling experience.

Fine, he made money off of Irvin's name for "just shy of 5 years".

Nakapan said that his losses were the result of A) paying into Lloyd's MLM (pyramid) scheme, and

Holy shit, how much does Irvin charge? He said he lost like $35,000 or something. That's like $7,000/year. Attaching Irvin's name to your banner ain't free.

B) partnering wit h Lloyd on a software project, only to have Lloyd short him of tens of thousands of dollars for his half of the investment. If someone owed me that much money, for that long, and was that unresponsive, I'd say "fuck that guy" too (and I'd probably say it very publicly). Anyone who says they'd act any different in that situation is full of shit.

If it's in writing, then he can sue Irvin. Other than that, it's just his side of the story. I don't know about any of this other than his story and then you supporting him. Show me documents and/or court documents. Else, I don't believe you.

It takes some balls to publicly state "I acted like an asshole and I'm sorry." Nakapan not only did this, but he succinctly documented his involvement in an unsustainable business practice. Was he wrong? Yes. But you know what, he's able to admit he was wrong, which compared to some of the other people involved in this situation is a big fucking deal.

No it doesn't. He's just trying to get away from the CANCEROUS NAME, which is Lloyd Irvin, right now. Then it seemed like he's taking an opportunity to shit on Irvin's head to get back at him for supposedly screwing him out that software venture.

If Nakapan felt all of what he did was so wrong, why don't he PAY BACK ALL THE MONEY HE SWINDLED FROM PEOPLE. This would show REAL balls. Saying "I'm sorry"....haha, thanks a lot.

Once you start teaching people Brazilian Jiujitsu, you start to really see the beauty of this sport. One of our students recently left for NYC, and on his last day he got in front of the class and reminded us that when he first came to the school, he was 35 pounds overweight and completely out of shape. He left our school as a good blue belt who said he was in the best shape of his life. I remember his first class, because I taught it. This stuff happens every day in BJJ gyms around the world, and it's a shame to see people get so fucking jaded about money that they lose the simple joy that exists in being a part of peoples growth.

Yeah, the beauty is you get to charge a lot more than any other Martial Arts, except maybe Krav Maga...which people are at least getting wise to. Judo clubs charges $35-50/month and no contract. Nobody ever lost weight nor got in shape from Judo before, it's unpossible.

Fuck marketing schemes. Fuck business consulting. Fuck Aston Martins and bundles of 20's. Fuck instructional DVD packages on business models. Fuck upselling and high pressure sales and all the greed that has gotten into this sport. You know what I'll pay for? High-energy classes with a consistent level of instruction, instructors who push their students a little harder than they want to push themselves, that lead by example.

Yeah, but don't fuck charging $150-200/month for BJJ with a 1-year contract totaling $1800-2400....that gets sent to collections should a BJJ student breaks it and the collectors calls everyday, about 2-3 times, demanding the full amount. Fuck everything but this part.

 

[SanShou01]

This is a complete straw man. I reread the letter to make sure, but Nakapan never claims that the marketing and management techniques are illegal, just immoral and sleazy. He's apologizing for them because they basically squeezed his students and associates for more cash and he doesn't consider that to be consistent with his own morals or what martial arts are about in general. The letter is pretty clear laying this out.

You've not refuted what I suggested....which was, if Nakapan felt that he swindled his students, then he should PAY IT ALL BACK.

Telling a bunch of people that you SWINDLED money from, "I'm sorry"....is nothing compared to really being sorry and paying it all back.

He's a CPA...which means that he can easily audit his own business to produce reports of whom he should pay back.

Ok, and if his activities weren't ILLEGAL, then he doesn't need to serve jail time...just pay back the MONEY.

 

[Pizdek]

Shut up Brad

 

[anaconda]

Ok, then Nakapan should reimburse the fees to those other school owners then if he feels that bad about it. Saying sorry doesn't really do much.

You know what? Opening a Martial Arts gym, ain't no rocket science. Chopsockiers have been doing it for decades now in America. And thousands of years in Asia. There are tons of books from Martial Artists trying to make a buck selling the mold to their successes. There are MA organizations that do this every year for TKD, Karate, Kung-Fu and any other flavors of Chopsocky. Then they sell DVD's and trinkets along the way. This applies to just about all other types of businesses from insurance to real estate, hot dog vending, sex toys, whatever.

The main draw of Irvin, and it's a LEGITMATE one, is that he's a highly accomplished player in his game. People are buying the privilege of being able to attach their name to his. Just like how people bought in to the Gracie name. Then specific Gracies like Renzo, Ralph, Royce, Rickson, etc. Irvin is certainly used more Bally's Fitness and crap, high pressure tactics and such, I agree. But it's nothing illegal nor immoral.

You can buy a $40, How To Make Money Teaching Chopsocky book....and learn everything that Irvin knows. Irvin probably just read the same books and changed the words around. It's just Sales & Marketing. Someone like Nakapan who majored in Accounting, got his degree, got a CPA and then an MBA....would have taken many of such Sales & Marketing classes.

Just that now, Irvin's name is cancer. Detaching from Irvin is certainly the wise business move. But detaching and then shit and piss on the man's head, damn. This is where Irvin really finds out who his real friends are.

Real friends like, eh Brad?

 

[lechien]

Sanshou. Can you explain why is li name is cancerous?