Based on skills & attributes, is Leon the *best* WW of all time?

[VAfan]

Let me give you an example. Since you're apparently new, despite having a 2006 account.

Muhammad Ali is the greatest heavyweight boxer of all time. To come back from losing to Frazier, and to knock out Foreman when the whole world wrote him off, is probably the greatest moment in heavyweight boxing history.

But he is not the best HW boxer of all time. Lennox Lewis, Wladimir Klitschko, Tyson Fury, and probably prime Mike Tyson, would have beaten Ali.

Greatness is not the same thing as your skills + physical attributes. There is a relationship between them, but they're not the same thing. This isn't hard to understand.

if you say so. but i'm not really seeing it. wayne gretzky, greatest and best. michael jordan, greatest and best. tom brady, same. if someone were 'better' than gretzky then they would have scored more goals, had more assists, the stats would have reflected it. you'd have to go looking for exceptions, although granted they can and do exist - mike tyson a good choice, probably best evah for a period of time but not greatest. but the two usually converge.

 

[blackheart]

You’re crazy if you think Usman makes it past Pre USADA Big Rigg or even Prime Condit.

That's totally insane. Pre USADA hendricks had massive power, and that was it. His average technique combined with his shorter stature would have left him eating Usman's jabs and crosses all night. Prime Condit had great striking and mediocre grappling that Usman would have easily exploited.

I think Hughes and Koscheck would give Usman hell too.

Ok that's an absolutely terrible, terrible take. WTF about Koscheck, his resume, and his skillset would lead you to believe he would give Usman hell?

People are delusional if they think Usman’s Resume was tougher than GSP’s. 9 Consecutive Defenses, can Usman say the same??

Yeah, no. GSP's resume is absolutely better than Usman's. There's no doubt about that. GSP has one of the best 2 or 3 resumes in the history of the sport.

Didn’t think so.

And GSP didn’t lose to Big Rigg. It was a close fight, tell me what GOAT never had a Questionable Win? Please, tell me one GOAT that never had a Questionable fight. Fedor, Aldo, Jones, Silva, they’ve ALL had fights we as Fans, still hold into Question.

It was a split decision on the official score cards. 100% of MMA media had it for Hendricks. It was one of the worst 2 or 3 robberies in the history of the sport, and GSP left the sport as a result of the beating he took.

GSP literally fought and defended his Title 9 Consecutive Times, Wear/Tear was starting to settle in and he needed that break he took. Tell me another Champion in History like GSP that didn’t look near Beatable at the end of their Reign, Hell Even Jones was looking Human against Guys he would’ve crushed back in his Prime. Mind you too, GSP fought Juiced Up Hendricks and Hendricks still lost.

You keep talking about title defenses and resume. I clearly articulated in the op that that isn't what this question is about. GSP is undoubtedly a "greater" WW than Leon. But I think the question of who is the "best", is much closer.

 

[MRT]

Appreciate you actually offering up thoughtful analysis without hostility, as my OP contained no such hostility. This thread got fuckin weird.

Predictably Sherdog I was admittedly out of line with the 'GSP would humiliate...' comment in my first reply, so you were right to question that. I'm normally more careful with my words and try to avoid such lazy, hyperbolic statements.

 

[blackheart]

if you say so. but i'm not really seeing it. wayne gretzky, greatest and best. michael jordan, greatest and best. tom brady, same. if someone were 'better' than gretzky then they would have scored more goals, had more assists, the stats would have reflected it. you'd have to go looking for exceptions, although granted they can and do exist - mike tyson a good choice, maybe best evah but not greatest. but i would say the two usually converge.

Yeah, the two usually do converge, but not always. So, admittedly, you do get the concept. I don't know why you had to say I'm smoking crack for making the distinction.

 

[Hog-train]

Yeah bro... look at their records
View attachment 1029251View attachment 1029252

GSP and Leon have the same number of decisions. GSP has TWO more finishes.

Your bias is showing.

GSP has 14 finishes out of 26 wins and Edwards has 10 of 26 wins. That's not the same.

And look at the way he fought Colby his last fight. He basically coasted and wasn't trying for a finish.

 

[VAfan]

Yeah, the two usually do converge, but not always. So, admittedly, you do get the concept. I don't know why you had to say I'm smoking crack for making the distinction.

it was more about suggesting leon is possibly best ever, because that isn't close to being true. gsp was probably the greatest / best mma fighter of all time and i'd say that's pretty hard to dispute. his skill set was unique, it was as close to perfect as we've seen.

 

[Jfreemandrums]

Prime Georges 50-45.

Literally

OP said Colby vs GSP is a toss up lmfaoooo

Honestly I'd bet on a GSP TKO against Colby, and he cruises to decisions against Usman and Edwards. They cannot 'andle da riddum

Georges has better stand-up than both Kamaru and Leon, and if they manage to get the better of him, he blends his takedowns into his game better than anyone in the business. He dumps both dudes onto the mat with a double leg at least once a round. Prime GSP was unstoppable

 

[Jfreemandrums]

I dont even think Leon has had a better run than Lawler did during his resurgence

People wanna go on and on about nostalgia clouding their views, but the recency bias is out of control

 

[skylolow]

GSP would tool Leon overall. I don't think it would be close.

Usman on his run might of found some success against GSP similar as he did with Leon but eventually Leon won and so would GSP(probably in easier fashion).

GSP is one best to ever actually mix the martial arts together and make it flow within his style in the cage. He was very proficient at all aspects except maybe striking but he was above average and knew how to utilize striking to control the distance and flow it into his wrestling. This is a guy who didn't really have any wrestling creds but trained with the Olympic team and held his own. Most fighters on the UFC roster would get completely owned at the Olympic level of wrestling.

 

[mister piscadinha]

leon has shitty boxing, he would probably lose to gsp in a kickboxing fight, let alone a mma one

 

[TempleoftheDog]

Leon is both of those things. So actually make an argument.

In 50 combined fights Usman, and Edwards have 4 total subs. 1 for Usman, and 3 for Edwards. In 28 fights GSP had 6 subs. As most people know. Neither Usman, or Edwards is the same level of grappler as GSP. And you’d be out to lunch to believe either of them was better on the feet than GSP.

 

[blackheart]

GSP has 14 finishes out of 26 wins and Edwards has 10 of 26 wins. That's not the same.

And look at the way he fought Colby his last fight. He basically coasted and wasn't trying for a finish.

Your numbers are all over the place. Leon has 22 wins. Not 26. Leon also has 2 fewer total fights.

Leon has 10 finishes out of 22 wins. That's a 45% finish rate.

Gsp has 14 finishes out of 26 wins. That's a 54% finish rate.

Acting like GSP has "killer instinct" and is some kind of finishing machine compared to Leon, because of an 8% difference in finish rate, is just unbelievably biased. GSP was notorious for how boring and safe he fought during his championship run. Stop pretending that isn't the case.

 

[blackheart]

In 50 combined fights Usman, and Edwards have 4 total subs. 1 for Usman, and 3 for Edwards. In 28 fights GSP had 6 subs. As most people know. Neither Usman, or Edwards is the same level of grappler as GSP. And you’d be out to lunch to believe either of them was better on the feet than GSP.

You'd be out to lunch to believe that Leon was better on the feet than GSP? LOL whaaaaat??? My god the GSP revisionism has reached new heights.

 

[VinceArch]

I've had accounts on this forum since 2008 and got into the sport from PRIDE vhs tapes. Keep coping instead of contributing to the thread clown.

Yeah, I am so sure that's true

 

[Hog-train]

Your numbers are all over the place. Leon has 22 wins. Not 26. Leon also has 2 fewer total fights.

Leon has 10 finishes out of 22 wins. That's a 45% finish rate.

Gsp has 14 finishes out of 26 wins. That's a 54% finish rate.

Acting like GSP has "killer instinct" and is some kind of finishing machine compared to Leon, because of an 8% difference in finish rate, is just unbelievably biased. GSP was notorious for how boring and safe he fought during his championship run. Stop pretending that isn't the case.

Meh I have eyeballs. Leon doesn't have killer instinct. Even with the Usman finish, he was being dominated most of the fight until he hit that head kick.

His 2nd fight against Usman wasn't dominating in any way. He coasted to a decision in that and also the Colby fight.

Laughable that people are putting him in any "best WW of all time" lists.

 

[mister piscadinha]

Not really. I watched every fight of his entire reign, live. He was extremely dominant and faced higher level competition than all of his championship peers from other divisions.

That being said, he never fought someone that was elite everywhere - standing and on the ground. He faced some really exceptional grapplers from his day, like Shields and Fitch, but those exceptional grapplers always had a mediocre to bad standup game. The good to elite strikers he faced had mediocre to bad grappling. He never fought anyone that had elite striking and a very very high-level ground game. When he fought someone that roughly fit that bill, Hendricks, he lost.

Leon has “cleaner” striking than GSP, seems more polished and precise.

Leon has seemingly better kicks. But.. I say that while acknowledging GPS’s great head kicks. GSP sort of scaled down and used less tools as he progressed. Earlier in his career, he would headlock KO people, he would Superman punch people, drop people and finish. He was called RUSH.

GSP then went very conservative and used a wresting based approach where we did not see his striking as much.


Leon on the other hand seems to have started showing more of his arsenal of late.
I Don’t know how Leon would fare vs GSP’s wrestling and grappling l

cleaner striking? leon was getting beat by old noknees usman in the pocket and had to resort do body and leg kicks to win a shitty decision

outside of the head kick ko(which gsp could also do) leon's striking seems dull and uninspiring, just another leg kick merchant that will get embarassed by the first good mma boxer he faces(like izzy against strickland)

the truth is gsp had a way better boxing than leon and would probably beat him standing, leon is discount carlos condit

 

[mister piscadinha]

Prime Hendricks was a beast. But all he had was good wrestling and a Mexican supplement infused right hand combined with average/basic striking technique. And that was enough to turn GSP's face into hamburger meat and end his run. Usman and Leon would have tooled prime Hendricks and made it look easy. Hendricks would have whiffed on his loaded up right hand over and over again, against either of them.

"average/basic striking technique"

yeah, dude.. cause slow robotic usman is jerome le banner striking, right?
i had sincere doubts that prime usman could beat prime hendricks

 

[VAfan]

Usman on his run might of found some success against GSP similar as he did with Leon but eventually Leon won and so would GSP(probably in easier fashion).

usman's striking was crap. gsp would have jab-fested him into bolivia. usman found limited success in the standup because everyone was so terrified of the TD, and GSP wouldn't have had to worry about that at all.

 

[Cowboy Kurt Angle]

No

 

[blackheart]

Yeah, I am so sure that's true

Read em and weep playboy.