Based on skills & attributes, is Leon the *best* WW of all time?

[blackheart]

Meh I have eyeballs. Leon doesn't have killer instinct. Even with the Usman finish, he was being dominated most of the fight until he hit that head kick.

His 2nd fight against Usman wasn't dominating in any way. He coasted to a decision in that and also the Colby fight.

Laughable that people are putting him in any "best WW of all time" lists.

I mean, you're trying to play both sides of the argument. It's laughable to include Leon on all time WW lists because of his low finish rate, but the same thing doesnt apply to GSP who had a notoriously low finish rate and was widely criticized for how boring and safe he fought? Which is it dude? You can't apply uneven criteria. What applies to one applies to the other.

 

[Hog-train]

I mean, you're trying to play both sides of the argument. It's laughable to include Leon on all time WW lists because of his low finish rate, but the same thing doesnt apply to GSP who had a notoriously low finish rate and was widely criticized for how boring and safe he fought? Which is it dude? You can't apply uneven criteria. What applies to one applies to the other.

Yet the "safe" GSP still has a higher finishing rate than Edwards.

What does that say about Edwards then?

 

[blackheart]

Yet the "safe" GSP still has a higher finishing rate than Edwards.

What does that say about Edwards then?

8% higher. Not even statistically noteworthy.

It says that both GSP & Leon are masters at neutralizing their opponent's game and cruising to easy victories.

Look, there's plenty of good arguments you can make about why GSP is better than Leon, or why he'd beat him. But when we're talking about GSP, Leon being a decision machine/boring/no killer instinct, isn't one of them.

 

[blackheart]

cleaner striking? leon was getting beat by old noknees usman in the pocket and had to resort do body and leg kicks to win a shitty decision

Delusional unserious analysis. A shitty decision? He landed 50% more significant strikes than Usman.

outside of the head kick ko(which gsp could also do) leon's striking seems dull and uninspiring, just another leg kick merchant that will get embarassed by the first good mma boxer he faces(like izzy against strickland)

You really don't seem to watch with a critical eye for technique. Do you train or have you ever trained? Why is it that so many fighters at the top of the sport have praised his striking technique?

Does Leon's boxing leave just a little to be desired and can it be improved on? Sure. But you could say the same thing about GSP. GSP's boxing technique was basic and clean. His explosiveness and timing carried him a lot in that department. But GSP didn't stand in the pocket and trade either. One of the times he did he got ruthlessly KO'd by Serra. GSP liked to stay on the outside and land fast rangy techniques like jabs and superman punches or close the distance quick and get you down.

What's being completely left out of your analysis is Leon's defense.

Leon does to strikers, what GSP did to grapplers - he completely neutralizes their game. GSP and Leon are almost mirrors of each other in that way, and that's what makes a prime v prime matchup between them way more compelling and competitive than the GSP nuthuggers would have you believe.

the truth is gsp had a way better boxing than leon and would probably beat him standing, leon is discount carlos condit

That is not the truth, at all, as I just articulated above. Both of them have basic boxing. I don't know why you're talking like GSP was some elite boxer. He wasn't and no one ever thought that about him. He used his athleticism and a karate-like style to dart in and out with jabs, kicks, superman punches, or quickly closed the distance to hit a takedown. He wasn't some guy that traded hands. And again, notoriously, one of the few times he tried to be, he got KO'd by undersized journeyman Matt Serra.

 

[Hog-train]

8% higher. Not even statistically noteworthy.

It says that both GSP & Leon are masters at neutralizing their opponent's game and cruising to easy victories.

Look, there's plenty of good arguments you can make about why GSP is better than Leon, or why he'd beat him. But when we're talking about GSP, Leon being a decision machine/boring/no killer instinct, isn't one of them.

MMA is not only about stats. It's the eye test too.

Leon Edwards doesn't hunt for finishes. He didn't try to finish Colby and it was obvious. In the 3rd Usman fight, he just stayed at distance and counter struck.

He got dominated in most of their 2nd fight until the head kick KO.

When has GSP ever been dominated? Never.

 

[VinceArch]

View attachment 1029278
Read em and weep playboy.

What does any of that prove?

 

[welcometohavoc]

I hate this community sometimes

 

[Clark Rogers]

First - put some respect on RDA's name. He's an incredible fighter and was elite at 155 and at 170, and had a complete game.

Second - literally, what the fuck are you talking about:
View attachment 1029249

We just inventing our own reality now? 22 of the 28 MMA media groups that scored the fight scored it for Colby. 6 of 28 scored it for RDA. All 3 judges had it for Colby.

Wait so you're really gonna say multiple times in this thread that Hendricks beat GSP, then dog someone else for "inventing their own reality" with a wiki?

If I screen shot GSP vs Hendricks wiki result, will you admit to the hypocrisy there?

 

[DOMMA]

How does this make ANY sense when Leon beat Usman twice? Prime Usman is above Leon even though Leon beat him in his prime twice? What?

Usman was past his prime when he fought Leon; he was 35 years old with bad knees. Is Tito better than Chuck...he knocked him out easily in their last fight?

 

[blaseblase]

You’re crazy if you think Usman makes it past Pre USADA Big Rigg or even Prime Condit.

Huh? What would prevent Usman from taking Condit down? That seems like one of the easier matchups for him.

 

[nonoob]

Any link that shows Leon at any time he looked to be a the top 10 guy ?

Not a gif please, no argument his headkick to Usman was right on time.

 

[Relentless chase]

Huh? What would prevent Usman from taking Condit down? That seems like one of the easier matchups for him.

He would take him down, Condit has never had The Best TDD, but I’m saying, dealing with Prime Condit’s Striking. Condit in his Prime, was P4P one of the better Strikers at WW. I don’t think Usman stands with The Condit of 2010. His only hope is to get Condit down and pray he can hold him there. Condit was just too good, that I see him catching Usman with a Knee or Headkick. Usman was a beast in his Prime, but people really overrate him in terms of who he fought/beat, vs who GSP fought/beat. GSP had the tougher competition by MILES. Prime Condit, Prime Koscheck, Prime Alves, even a Prime Shields.

 

[blaseblase]

He would take him down, Condit has never had The Best TDD, but I’m saying, dealing with Prime Condit’s Striking. Condit in his Prime, was P4P one of the better Strikers at WW. I don’t think Usman stands with The Condit of 2010. His only hope is to get Condit down and pray he can hold him there. Condit was just too good, that I see him catching Usman with a Knee or Headkick. Usman was a beast in his Prime, but people really overrate him in terms of who he fought/beat, vs who GSP fought/beat.

Condit had arguably the worst takedown defense for an elite fighter, Usman would just take him down the entire fight. Condit never beat a wrestler as good as Usman.

 

[Relentless chase]

Condit had arguably the worst takedown defense for an elite fighter, Usman would just take him down the entire fight. Condit never beat a wrestler as good as Usman.

Well, you say that… I would argue Rory was up on the cards and a few minutes away from winning a Decision, BUT he did TKO Rory and I think overall, Rory turned out to be a better MMA Wrestler than Usman, although he used his Wrestling very little towards the end of his UFC Career. I’m talking about Rory that was Young, Healthy, & Hungry, not The Ghost of Rory that went off to Bellator.. Which is why a Dream matchup for me would be a Prime Rory vs Prime Usman.

But yes, you’re right, in terms of Division 1 or 2 Caliber Wrestling, Usman would pose the Greatest Threat to Condit and his Defensive Wrestling.

Worst case Scenario: Condit gets dry humped for 3 rounds..

Best Case Scenario: it turns dirty and Condit catches him with a Knee or Sneaks in a Headkick. If Leon could do it, I damn sure know a Prime Carlos Condit could too!!!

 

[613]

I don't even know if Leon can beat GSP today. Never mind in gsps prime

 

[blaseblase]

Well, you say that… I would argue Rory was up on the cards and a few minutes away from winning a Decision, BUT he did TKO Rory and I think overall, Rory turned out to be a better MMA Wrestler than Usman, although he used his Wrestling very little towards the end of his UFC Career. I’m talking about Rory that was Young, Healthy, & Hungry, not The Ghost of Rory that went off to Bellator.. Which is why a Dream matchup for me would be a Prime Rory vs Prime Usman.

But yes, you’re right, in terms of Division 1 or 2 Caliber Wrestling, Usman would pose the Greatest Threat to Condit and his Defensive Wrestling.

Worst case Scenario: Condit gets dry humped for 3 rounds..

Best Case Scenario: it turns dirty and Condit catches him with a Knee or Sneaks in a Headkick. If Leon could do it, I damn sure know a Prime Carlos Condit could too!!!

Rory was definitely not a better MMA wrestler than Usman, he was kind of a jack of all trades. Good but not great everywhere.

Leon has much better defense wrestling than Condit and Usman still bullied him for 4 out of 5 rounds. He would have his way with Condit, I mean the fact you have to rely on a last minute headkick tells you Usman would be the significant favorite. Landing a perfect strike like that has an element of luck to it, taking advantage of a fighter's clearcut weakness doesnt.

 

[613]

Not really. I watched every fight of his entire reign, live. He was extremely dominant and faced higher level competition than all of his championship peers from other divisions.

That being said, he never fought someone that was elite everywhere - standing and on the ground. He faced some really exceptional grapplers from his day, like Shields and Fitch, but those exceptional grapplers always had a mediocre to bad standup game. The good to elite strikers he faced had mediocre to bad grappling. He never fought anyone that had elite striking and a very very high-level ground game. When he fought someone that roughly fit that bill, Hendricks, he lost.

Can idiots stop pretending gsp was at his prime when he fought Hendricks. GSP lost a ton of explosiveness after his multiple knee surgeries

 

[Benoitthegr8]

After reading 8 pages of bickering, I literally forgot that this thread was a discussion over where Leon sits on the WW OAT list and not whom wins the fight H2H GSP or Rocky, FFS here’s my 0.2

Currently Edward’s is between 6-10

Head to head IMO it’s George’s by more elite experience, better offensive wrestling and a narrowly better chin. Let’s rediscover this discussion after Leon has 5 more successful defense.

 

[mkt]

The people picking Leon over GSP probably only saw post-ACL GSP who fought Nick Diaz, Condit, etc. GSP circa 2008-9 who easily beat Fitch, Koscheck, BJ, Alves and everyone else wins this one. Even with multiple injuries/surgeries and a 4-year layoff, GSP came back and won the MW belt. Granted, Bisping was probably the worst MW champ ever, but he was at least a full weight class bigger (Bisping also fought at LHW) and had just beaten Rockhold.

 

[Relentless chase]

Rory was definitely not a better MMA wrestler than Usman, he was kind of a jack of all trades. Good but not great everywhere.

Leon has much better defense wrestling than Condit and Usman still bullied him for 4 out of 5 rounds. He would have his way with Condit, I mean the fact you have to rely on a last minute headkick tells you Usman would be the significant favorite. Landing a perfect strike like that has an element of luck to it, taking advantage of a fighter's clearcut weakness doesnt.

Well, I think he was a better MMA Wrestler than Usman, that doesn’t discredit Usman, I still think Usman could get Rory Down, but Rory was a lot like GSP, he was at good chaining it all together and therefore, I see Rory shutting down Usman just like he shut Woodley down. To allude to what i’m saying, I think Jones was/is a better MMA Wrestler than DC. Some fighters are just better at Putting everything together and people really overlook/underrate Rory MacDonald in that aspect alone.

I understand Condit’s Defense Wrestling sucked lol I’m literally not mad bro, I’m just saying, I fully believe the Condit’s, Koscheck’s, and Shield’s would “bully” a lot of these current guys in their Primes. GSP fought these guys at their Best. Back to back to back.

I would argue for Usman, he fought Burns at his best, Colby at his best, and he dominated Woodley, something that Rory MaCDonald already laid the blueprint out for.

Different era’s so it’s like why does it matter, but I just see how so many overrate Usman’s Slate of Opponets vs GSP’s.

That’s all I’m saying. I’m just confused at how OP said Usman snipes GSP with 1-2’s for 5 Rounds, meanwhile no one did that to GSP in his Prime, not even a Juiced up Big Rigg.