Anyone else lol when someone mentions Bruce Lee in a serious MMA-context?

[MysticNinjaJay]

I think Bruce Lee had potential to be a great fighter if he competed. If he was alive in his prime today and actually trained for MMA I believe he had the athleticism and intelligence to do really well and possibly be a UFC champion in his weight class.

Basically I agree with Bas Rutten:



I think he would need more than a year though. Give him 3-4 years of serious MMA training at a top gym and 10-15 fights against progressively better competition while remaining in his prime and building on the Martial Arts experience he had while he was alive and then I think he could be competitive with the Top 10 in his weight class and possibly champion. But Bruce Lee fanboys want to believe that Bruce Lee was some kind of demigod who could beat anybody who ever lived regardless of size, experience or fight record. They believe all of these crazy myths about Bruce Lee that suggest he was superhuman and if you question these beliefs a lot of them will get angry at you and insult you just for having what you feel is a realistic opinion. A lot of these fanboys obviously don't have any Martial Arts training and have just watched a lot of Martial Arts movies. They are defending their childhood hero or bought in to the rumors about him on the internet. Some of these myths are just claims that people are making up and some of them are being promoted by Bruce Lee's friends many of whom are credible Martial Artists but are clearly biased. His wife Linda Lee Cadwell also has a vested interest in defending Bruce Lee's legacy which has helped her a lot financially.

Here are some examples of videos promoting Bruce Lee as an incredible fighter:













Now I'm not saying there's no validity to what these people are saying. Maybe guys like Jim Kelly and James Demile know something we don't. But I do think they are exaggerating. When you say things like Bruce Lee was the Michael Jordan of sparring, untouchable and could beat anyone of any level and size in a fight with no rules you are promoting a myth and trying to turn Bruce Lee in to some kind of superhero consistent with the image he projected on screen as an invincible Kung Fu master. And none of this is based on real fight footage. If Bruce Lee had fought someone and recorded it on film and just dominated them in a fight he'd have more credibility. Even then I'm not going to believe he was unbeatable or untouchable but at least we could see that he was the real deal and that his fighting ability is not a myth manufactured by Hollywood and stories.

Even the sparring footage we have, which you can see in one of those videos that was uploaded yesterday and has over 4 million views, doesn't tell us much. Bruce Lee and his sparring partner are wearing padding with headgear. You can't even tell them apart and they are clearly not going all out. The video probably went viral because the title says it features Bruce Lee in a real fight. People want to believe that Bruce Lee was an invincible Kung Fu master who could beat anybody. I think Bruce Lee was a serious Martial Artist with attributes that we can all respect such as his athleticism, philosophy, work ethic and perfectionism. I believe all MMA fans and Martial Arts enthusiasts should respect Bruce Lee for his contribution to Martial Arts. His movies were instrumental in making Martial Arts popular worldwide. But he wasn't a professional fighter. Claiming he could beat anybody including UFC champions is an insult to the fighters who have worked hard to showcase their real fighting ability and does a disservice to Bruce Lee's legacy because it distracts from his real accomplishments as a passionate Martial Artist and influential actor.

 

[Turtlejuice]

he influenced the public to care about that sort of thing, sure. as I said, I have no hate for Bruce Lee at all...

this is what bothers me: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/33160-bruce-lee-the-first-advocate-of-mma http://www.mmamania.com/2015/11/27/...ather-of-mma-on-what-would-be-75-birthday-mma and so on... with even the UFC calling him 'the father of MMA' at some point.

when it was actually brazilian vale tudo that 'fathered' MMA
http://www.sasori.ro/stiluri-view/Vale-Tudo.21.html

You mentioned the gracie family. The Gracie not only adapted Judo to ground fighting making BJJ the most dominant martial art in a vale tudo fight, they have campaigned heavily for demonstration fights and events through an entire century. They also literally dominated early UFC with Royce submitting guys twice his size.

MMA is modern vale tudo. vale tudo has been around since before Bruce Lee. It doesn't even make any sense to say the sort of thing people say. as if MMA came out of nowhere after Bruce Lee said grappling was important. It's fucking stupid.

Vale Tudo didn't really "father MMA". Vale Tudo (early vale tudo at least)was essentially style vs style fights, basically the same as early UFC fights. Mixed Martial Arts have been around for a long time. If anything, pankration is the father of MMA, it was the first thing to combine boxing and wrestling in a combat sport. Bruce Lee popularised training martial arts, and specifically cross training martial arts. In an era where most people were passing on fluff, he was advocating throwing away the fluff and doing what works.

 

[basementdweller]

The Gracies ARE NOT the fathers of MMA. As much as I respect the Gracie family and what they brought to the sport, their main contribution was the MMA Tournament. Their main objective was to prove that their style of fighting was superior to all others and it was. With a no-holds contest, no rounds, no time limits and almost, literally, no rules, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was and is, to this day, the best fighting style, hands down. The Gracies did not take other forms of Marital Arts and combine them with their own, they took Jiu-Jitsu and "perfected" it to their style and belief of how the system should work. The MMA tournament they created was their proving ground. However, Bruce Lee was a pioneer in the fact that he sought to incorporate all styles of fighting (MMA) and that is why many consider him the "Father of MMA."

Save the hate for your dog as you kick him on your way out the door.

Pay close attention to my posting and you will see that I didn't say the Gracies were the 'fathers' of MMA. I don't think such a title is deserving for any individual, or group for that matter. What I am saying is that Brazilian Vale Tudo is the precursor of MMA. The Gracies did champion many Vale Tudo events, and the gracies founded the UFC. The first UFC events were literally Vale Tudo events. You just can't call someone who was not involved in Vale Tudo, the father of MMA. The real fathers of MMA were the people involved in organizing and promoting Vale Tudo events across the world. The Gracies were a huge part of that, but they were not the only ones doing it. IF you need to call anyone that, the Gracies are way more deserving than Bruce Lee. I also find it ridiculous that you think Bruce Lee was the first to 'incorporate all styles of fighting'. A lot of martial arts incorporate different styles of fighting already. Sambo does that. Luta Livre does that. People in this and other threads on Bruce Lee quote him talking about boxing + wrestling being quite effective, when both Sambo and Luta Livre are already that and Bruce trained neither.

 

[basementdweller]

Vale Tudo didn't really "father MMA". Vale Tudo (early vale tudo at least)was essentially style vs style fights, basically the same as early UFC fights. Mixed Martial Arts have been around for a long time. If anything, pankration is the father of MMA, it was the first thing to combine boxing and wrestling in a combat sport. Bruce Lee popularised training martial arts, and specifically cross training martial arts. In an era where most people were passing on fluff, he was advocating throwing away the fluff and doing what works.

MMA, as a term, to describe the sport we're watching, is new. Combining martial arts is as old as the martial arts themselves obviously. But 'MMA' came after UFC. And the Gracies founded the UFC. Bruce Lee advocated for cross training martial arts - ok. Unless you think he was the first one, it's not really relevant is it.

 

[TrueFightFan]

I think Bruce Lee had potential to be a great fighter if he competed. If he was alive in his prime today and actually trained for MMA I believe he had the athleticism and intelligence to do really well and possibly be a UFC champion in his weight class.

Basically I agree with Bas Rutten:



I think he would need more than a year though. Give him 3-4 years of serious MMA training at a top gym and 10-15 fights against progressively better competition while remaining in his prime and building on the Martial Arts experience he had while he was alive and then I think he could be competitive with the Top 10 in his weight class and possibly champion. But Bruce Lee fanboys want to believe that Bruce Lee was some kind of demigod who could beat anybody who ever lived regardless of size, experience or fight record. They believe all of these crazy myths about Bruce Lee that suggest he was superhuman and if you question these beliefs a lot of them will get angry at you and insult you just for having what you feel is a realistic opinion. A lot of these fanboys obviously don't have any Martial Arts training and have just watched a lot of Martial Arts movies. They are defending their childhood hero or bought in to the rumors about him on the internet. Some of these myths are just claims that people are making up and some of them are being promoted by Bruce Lee's friends many of whom are credible Martial Artists but are clearly biased. His wife Linda Lee Cadwell also has a vested interest in defending Bruce Lee's legacy which has helped her a lot financially.

Here are some examples of videos promoting Bruce Lee as an incredible fighter:













Now I'm not saying there's no validity to what these people are saying. Maybe guys like Jim Kelly and James Demile know something we don't. But I do think they are exaggerating. When you say things like Bruce Lee was the Michael Jordan of sparring, untouchable and could beat anyone of any level and size in a fight with no rules you are promoting a myth and trying to turn Bruce Lee in to some kind of superhero consistent with the image he projected on screen as an invincible Kung Fu master. And none of this is based on real fight footage. If Bruce Lee had fought someone and recorded it on film and just dominated them in a fight he'd have more credibility. Even then I'm not going to believe he was unbeatable or untouchable but at least we could see that he was the real deal and that his fighting ability is not a myth manufactured by Hollywood and stories.

Even the sparring footage we have, which you can see in one of those videos that was uploaded yesterday and has over 4 million views, doesn't tell us much. Bruce Lee and his sparring partner are wearing padding with headgear. You can't even tell them apart and they are clearly not going all out. The video probably went viral because the title says it features Bruce Lee in a real fight. People want to believe that Bruce Lee was an invincible Kung Fu master who could beat anybody. I think Bruce Lee was a serious Martial Artist with attributes that we can all respect such as his athleticism, philosophy, work ethic and perfectionism. I believe all MMA fans and Martial Arts enthusiasts should respect Bruce Lee for his contribution to Martial Arts. His movies were instrumental in making Martial Arts popular worldwide. But he wasn't a professional fighter. Claiming he could beat anybody including UFC champions is an insult to the fighters who have worked hard to showcase their real fighting ability and does a disservice to Bruce Lee's legacy because it distracts from his real accomplishments as a passionate Martial Artist and influential actor.

I agree with some of what you say but are you stating he wouldn't win in a fight or an MMA match? Here is why I ask, I think, Steven Seagal (get ready for the jeers) could beat a lot of MMA fighters in a fight but not in an MMA match. He is a huge old guy and fast as hell for his size. Look at him training with Anderson Silva and Lyoto Machita. People will say they were humoring him and just "playing along" but look at his striking and technique in those videos. Whether or not he could last in the cage is nothing compared to whether or not he connects against you with one of those strikes in real life. Not to mention eye pokes and throat strikes from those hams he calls hands and you could find yourself in trouble, quickly. Now, getting back to Bruce Lee, he wasn't of great stature but take away all of the rules of an MMA fight and it gets dangerous really quickly. Again, throat strikes and eye raking, strikes to the back of the head and joint manipulation all can make for a long fight against someone so quick. He was well versed in ALL forms of fighting, not just Kung Fu, and preached strongly of learning all manners and styles of fighting to make yourself dangerous to any opponent. As for being in real fights, many people claimed to have witnessed him in real fights and sparring but camera phones weren't in as steady a supply as they are today so, who knows. Remember, the "baddest man on the planet" (Brock Lesnar) got his ass whupped by a shorter, chubby Mexican so to say a small, lightning fast Chinese guy couldn't do the same thing is not really thinking outside the box now, is it?

 

[TourIsOverBoyo]

Agreed, he's no match for true martial artists like Derrick "The Black Beast" Lewis

 

[TrueFightFan]

Pay close attention to my posting and you will see that I didn't say the Gracies were the 'fathers' of MMA. I don't think such a title is deserving for any individual, or group for that matter. What I am saying is that Brazilian Vale Tudo is the precursor of MMA. The Gracies did champion many Vale Tudo events, and the gracies founded the UFC. The first UFC events were literally Vale Tudo events. You just can't call someone who was not involved in Vale Tudo, the father of MMA. The real fathers of MMA were the people involved in organizing and promoting Vale Tudo events across the world. The Gracies were a huge part of that, but they were not the only ones doing it. IF you need to call anyone that, the Gracies are way more deserving than Bruce Lee. I also find it ridiculous that you think Bruce Lee was the first to 'incorporate all styles of fighting'. A lot of martial arts incorporate different styles of fighting already. Sambo does that. Luta Livre does that. People in this and other threads on Bruce Lee quote him talking about boxing + wrestling being quite effective, when both Sambo and Luta Livre are already that and Bruce trained neither.

I'm not saying he is the first to incorporate different styles but he may have been the first to incorporate certain styles to fit what he thought would be best for fighting. He also, gave credit to each style he incorporated and taught that you should learn different methods to pull from each what is efficient and discard what isn't. That is MMA in the truest sense. The Gracies came and dominated everyone with Jiu Jitsu so MMA transformed to incorporate that into a striking game. Learn enough not to be submitted or taken down and then punch the sons of bitches in the head, hard and fast. While I think that an "MMA" style fighter does better under the Unified Rules, take away the rules and I think Jiu Jitsu wins out most of the time. That is where I think Bruce Lee's teachings would have led MMA at a much earlier pace. It took the Gracies dominating the UFC to change MMA (start it on a mainstream level as well) but Lee was teaching this a long time ago. Learn Jiu Jitsu so that you can combat that style if it comes into play with an opponent.

Did you kick the dog, yet?

 

[ocfightfan]

LOL TS, you probably also think Pro Wrestling is fake, dumb ass.

 

[DaPunkMinowaMan]

Vale Tudo didn't really "father MMA". Vale Tudo (early vale tudo at least)was essentially style vs style fights, basically the same as early UFC fights. Mixed Martial Arts have been around for a long time. If anything, pankration is the father of MMA, it was the first thing to combine boxing and wrestling in a combat sport. Bruce Lee popularised training martial arts, and specifically cross training martial arts. In an era where most people were passing on fluff, he was advocating throwing away the fluff and doing what works.

The legends of Vale Tudo were already cross-training since the 1950s:

Euclydes Pereira [Luta Livre/Karate/Boxe/Capoeira]
Ivan Gomes [Luta Livre/Judo]
Rei Zulu [Capoeira/Tarracá~traditional wrestling]
Waldemar Santana [BJJ/Boxe/Capoeira]

 

[bubby]

'The best fighter is not a boxer, karate, or judo man. The best fighter is someone who can adapt on any style. He kicks too good for a boxer, throws too good for a karate man, and punches too good for a Judo man.' - Bruce Lee

'Someone with only a year of training in boxing and wrestling could easily defeat a martial artist of twenty years experience.' - Bruce Lee

Dat conman.

He was a fight philosopher, only he didn't even have new ideas. He just popularized the idea of a a well-rounded game, which is old as fuck.

And people don't just talk about his ideas, they talk about his abilities, which were non-existent or exaggerated by people that wanted to sell a brand.

 

[Coolidge]

He was a fight philosopher, only he didn't even have new ideas. He just popularized the idea of a a well-rounded game, which is old as fuck.

And people don't just talk about his ideas, they talk about his abilities, which were non-existent or exaggerated by people that wanted to sell a brand.

Literally all of that was wrong.

 

[MysticNinjaJay]

I agree with some of what you say but are you stating he wouldn't win in a fight or an MMA match? Here is why I ask, I think, Steven Seagal (get ready for the jeers) could beat a lot of MMA fighters in a fight but not in an MMA match. He is a huge old guy and fast as hell for his size. Look at him training with Anderson Silva and Lyoto Machita. People will say they were humoring him and just "playing along" but look at his striking and technique in those videos. Whether or not he could last in the cage is nothing compared to whether or not he connects against you with one of those strikes in real life. Not to mention eye pokes and throat strikes from those hams he calls hands and you could find yourself in trouble, quickly. Now, getting back to Bruce Lee, he wasn't of great stature but take away all of the rules of an MMA fight and it gets dangerous really quickly. Again, throat strikes and eye raking, strikes to the back of the head and joint manipulation all can make for a long fight against someone so quick. He was well versed in ALL forms of fighting, not just Kung Fu, and preached strongly of learning all manners and styles of fighting to make yourself dangerous to any opponent. As for being in real fights, many people claimed to have witnessed him in real fights and sparring but camera phones weren't in as steady a supply as they are today so, who knows. Remember, the "baddest man on the planet" (Brock Lesnar) got his ass whupped by a shorter, chubby Mexican so to say a small, lightning fast Chinese guy couldn't do the same thing is not really thinking outside the box now, is it?

OK here are my responses to your points:

1) Steven Seagal is not a professional fighter and I don't believe for a second that he could beat UFC fighters. He's old. He's out of shape. He has no professional record that lends him credibility to compete on that level. Anderson Silva and Lyoto Machida seemed to be humoring him for publicity and I think that's all it is. They wanted to be attached to the name of a movie star and Seagal wants more respect in the Martial Arts community by claiming he is training professional fighters. Maybe they are fans of his. Maybe he did teach them something practical but I do not believe for a moment that he could beat them or any UFC fighters. Also some UFC fighters were annoyed by Steven Segeal. Cung Le stated that it was disrespectful for Seagal to take credit for teaching UFC fighters how to fight. Randy Couture actually challenged Seagal to a fight to teach him a lesson and Seagal welcomed the challenged....only insisted that it be behind closed doors in the privacy of his own home. If he's really serious about his credibility as a fighter he could do a full-contact sparring match or actual fight with someone on video camera and prove it.

2) I don't think it really matters whether we are talking about an MMA fight or a street fight. I believe the outcome would be the same. An MMA fighter in a street fight can do anything that a Martial Artist in a street fight can do so Bruce Lee trying to use all of the "foul tactics" that are illegal in MMA to win wouldn't necessarily give him an advantage. I have the book Tao of Jeet Kune Do. There's some good stuff in there but a lot of it is based on theories. Bruce Lee didn't mention anything in his notes about the importance of defending against takedowns. Not only do you have to know how you need to drill it in training until you get a real feel for what it is like to stuff a takedown. What do you think would really happen if a skilled grappler took Bruce Lee to the ground, mounted him and pounded him in the face? Is he going to poke them in the eyes, bite them or scratch them to escape? No, he would need to know how to defend himself off of his back and I know that he trained with Gene Lebell and knew some grappling moves but I don't think he was on the level of college wrestlers, BJJ Black Belts and submission grappling world champions who are all present in the UFC who also no how to strike and can do the same dirty moves on the street that he can.

3) Camera phones didn't exist until the 1990s so no Bruce Lee and his friends wouldn't be walking around with cell phones recording fights prior to his death in 1973. But video cameras did exist. If Bruce Lee walked in to a bar or some public place and someone challenged him on the spot then no I don't expect to see that on camera and obviously most people don't walk around recording themselves fighting even today. There is a higher probability of being caught on camera thanks to camera phones that didn't exist when Bruce Lee was alive. But if he wanted to defend his reputation as a skilled Martial Artist he could have entered Martial Arts competitions. If he didn't like the rules he could have recorded a fight in his backyard or some private location. We have no video of these sparring matches Jim Kelly was talking about. There's also a lot of talk about Bruce Lee in challenge matches with other Martial Artists (ex. Wong Jack Man, Yoichi Nakachi and extras on the set of his movies). Why is there no video? I'm not saying that none of these fights or sparring sessions happened but if they had recorded any of these fights we would be able to assess his fighting skills. The lack of video indicates to me that Bruce Lee didn't want to document his fighting exploits. Many Martial Artists back then feared exposure. If they tested themselves they did it privately because they didn't want to be embarrassed by a loss. Bruce Lee seemed like he didn't feel he had anything to prove but he has been described by friends as being down for any challenge. If extras really were challenging him on the set of his films, with all of those cameras around he could have easily asked the crew to film the fight and kept it in his archive. But that didn't happen. There's literally no footage of Bruce Lee in a real fight despite the opportunity to film some. He couldn't have predicted that people would be debating this years after his untimely death but if he wanted to prove he was the real deal and not just an actor he could have filmed something.

4) Calling Cain Velasquez a shorter, chubby Mexican as if he isn't a world class athlete and seasoned professional fighter is rather disrespectful. I don't know what his ethnicity has to do with anything but we all know that MMA is not a bodybuilding contest and we know that shorter fighters can beat taller fighters. You can check my post history for my thoughts on Brock Lesnar. Clearly he is an exceptional athlete but as far as being "The Baddest Man on the Planet" well he was UFC Heavyweight champion but he got exposed pretty quickly and embarrassingly didn't he? I don't personally like him however I think he could easily get Bruce Lee to the ground and pound the hell out of him. We're talking about a Heavyweight vs. a guy the size of a natural Bantamweight here. Bruce Lee as a serious Martial Artist is more appealing than a brute like Lesnar but we should know all too well from MMA that the more intelligent and graceful fighter doesn't always win. Sometimes size, strength and overall athleticism matter more than technique and Lesnar's wrestling and superior size is going to matter more than Bruce Lee's striking and street fighting mentality in my opinion.

 

[John Cena]

Like most things, the truth is somewhere in the middle between myth and reality.

Since it's all just opinions, I think I'll believe someone like Ron Van Clief. He actually knew and trained with Bruce Lee. He also came back to fight in UFC 1 at age 51. I'd especially believe him over some nobody, keyboard warrior, on Sherdog.

http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/Ron-Van-Clief-Where-Is-He-Now-18699

While Lee is mainly known for his many martial arts films, he was also interested in grappling and had begun integrating it into his fighting philosophy, under judo legend Gene LeBell.

“He was a mixed martial artist, he was grappling back then,” Van Clief said.

And how would he rate the legendary Lee if given the opportunity to train and compete today?

“I think if he put his mind to do it, he would've been an excellent lightweight, as good as any of the lightweight MMA guys around. He was tough, he really was tough. Most people didn’t realize that, he could take it and dish it out. It’s kind of rare in any weight division.”

Agree. Many people fail to realize the extent of Bruce's workout regimen. His body alone would be a testament to how much effort he put into exercise.

Conor share a lot of similarities in that they are both OBSESSED about learning and bettering.

I have no doubt that given the knowledge now, Bruce would be heavily into training every single day

 

[Durr T Sanchez]

What are you, 12 years old?

People who say Bruce Lee was an amazing fighter, based on a few film clips of him wailing his hands around in a completely nonsensical manner. As if he had some inexplicable mysticism and knowledge of some secret fighting techinque.

It's akin to believing the art of aikido is superior to MMA.

Not to mention completely ignoring the physical characteristics and things like grip strength which matter tremendously in a fight.

Where does this completely cartoonish, childish dream that he was an amazing fighter come from?
People have no problem joking about the ridiculous Steven Seagal, but when it comes to Bruce Lee you get those ridiculous fanboys "but bro he was so fast, an amazing martial artist would be ufc champ bro!".

Fucking ridiculous.

Hmm lets see. Bruce was on his high school boxing team in HK and won a tournament. Trained Judo with his Judo black belt friends who were his students (Jesse Glover). Also officially trained Judo at the Seattle Dojo. Then trained Judo with Gene Lebell. Not to mention he trained Jujitsu with Wally Jay. Bruce was friends and training partners with some of the best fighters in the world at the time(Chuck Norris, Mike Stone, Joe Lewis). Not to mention being friends with high level black belts from other arts (Dan Inosanto, Gene Lebell, Wally Jay, James Lee).

His daily training schedule was well documented and his training was ahead of his time. Sparring with full gear, running miles every day, jump roping, stationary bikes, shadow boxing, thousands of punches a day, Studied every martial art who could study and was willing to learn from everyone. Stressed the importance of training all the ranges of combat. Plus he was in better shape than TS will ever be in.

Why take the time to write anything negative about him? Because his "fanboys" think he's some fighting god??Thats not his fault. If you're using that type of thinking then I wonder how you think about Christians and Muslims lol.

 

[Entram]

He brought forth the idea of mixing martial arts, dude is basically the godfather of MMA and you sit here trashing him. You obviously are new here and I'm trying to be understanding with your disorder but try and get the stupid under control.

 

[basementdweller]

I'm not saying he is the first to incorporate different styles but he may have been the first to incorporate certain styles to fit what he thought would be best for fighting. He also, gave credit to each style he incorporated and taught that you should learn different methods to pull from each what is efficient and discard what isn't. That is MMA in the truest sense. The Gracies came and dominated everyone with Jiu Jitsu so MMA transformed to incorporate that into a striking game. Learn enough not to be submitted or taken down and then punch the sons of bitches in the head, hard and fast. While I think that an "MMA" style fighter does better under the Unified Rules, take away the rules and I think Jiu Jitsu wins out most of the time. That is where I think Bruce Lee's teachings would have led MMA at a much earlier pace. It took the Gracies dominating the UFC to change MMA (start it on a mainstream level as well) but Lee was teaching this a long time ago. Learn Jiu Jitsu so that you can combat that style if it comes into play with an opponent.

Did you kick the dog, yet?

on the dog comment: I don't hate Bruce Lee man. I may not really admire him, though this might be because his movies do nothing for me. My only angle here is that people go on to call him something he quite evidently is not.

I think it's absolutely fair to say Bruce Lee was a fantastic spokesperson for martial arts, and thanks to him martial arts became more popular. You can even suggest that because of him, american audiences may have grown enough interest in bareknuckle street fighting that let to the success of MMA in the western world. He has an aura of determination, work ethics and humbleness that are a good role model for kids and even adults. He is quite inspirational and I understand he has a greatness about him.

But father of MMA, he is not. What you just said about Bruce Lee, "he may have been the first to incorporate certain styles to fit what he thought would be best for fighting", is factually wrong and speaks directly to the beauty of Vale Tudo. Vale Tudo fights, back in the beginning of the 20th century, already had martial artists trying to solve the exact same problems Bruce Lee was trying to solve. Luta Livre was a martial art designed for Vale Tudo. It has striking, wrestling, judo, and submissions that even BJJ practitioners were not aware of. BJJ itself had to improve a whole lot to deal with Luta Livre practitioners. The arts evolved because they were incorporating whatever was best for fighting. With all due respect to Lee, he was not in this type of competitive environment. When BJJ showed itself to the world in UFC 1, it already had over half a century of experience fighting with very few rules. BJJ and Luta Livre are already essentially MMA. Those styles grew with the no rules, bareknuckle nature of Vale Tudo.

 

[dembones22]

What are you, 12 years old?

People who say Bruce Lee was an amazing fighter, based on a few film clips of him wailing his hands around in a completely nonsensical manner. As if he had some inexplicable mysticism and knowledge of some secret fighting techinque.

It's akin to believing the art of aikido is superior to MMA.

Not to mention completely ignoring the physical characteristics and things like grip strength which matter tremendously in a fight.

Where does this completely cartoonish, childish dream that he was an amazing fighter come from?
People have no problem joking about the ridiculous Steven Seagal, but when it comes to Bruce Lee you get those ridiculous fanboys "but bro he was so fast, an amazing martial artist would be ufc champ bro!".

Fucking ridiculous.

If prime Bruce Lee was around today he would be doing the same thing he did back then. He would be the best Martial Arts actor in the world. Bruce lee was was never a fighter. He might have gotten into fights, so have I. I don't claim to be a fighter.

Bruce Lee was a modern Martial Artist who sought out to learn and share knowledge. And Entertain. Not a fighter.

@wildchild88

 

[basementdweller]

He brought forth the idea of mixing martial arts, dude is basically the godfather of MMA and you sit here trashing him. You obviously are new here and I'm trying to be understanding with your disorder but try and get the stupid under control.

and there you go @TrueFightFan . You can see my problem. MMA is essentially Vale Tudo, and Vale Tudo has been around for a century. There is a martial art that was created around it, it's called Luta Livre. Luta Livre is literally a mix of martial arts adapted to Vale Tudo. Wrestling, striking, and submissions, which is exactly what you see nowadays in MMA. I'm not sure who misinformed everyone, but this whole 'godfather of MMA', 'brought forth the idea of mixing martial arts' attributed to Bruce Lee is embarrassing.

 

[DaPunkMinowaMan]

OK here are my responses to your points:

1) Steven Seagal is not a professional fighter and I don't believe for a second that he could beat UFC fighters. He's old. He's out of shape. He has no professional record that lends him credibility to compete on that level. Anderson Silva and Lyoto Machida seemed to be humoring him for publicity and I think that's all it is. They wanted to be attached to the name of a movie star and Seagal wants more respect in the Martial Arts community by claiming he is training professional fighters. Maybe they are fans of his. Maybe he did teach them something practical but I do not believe for a moment that he could beat them or any UFC fighters. Also some UFC fighters were annoyed by Steven Segeal. Cung Le stated that it was disrespectful for Seagal to take credit for teaching UFC fighters how to fight. Randy Couture actually challenged Seagal to a fight to teach him a lesson and Seagal welcomed the challenged....only insisted that it be behind closed doors in the privacy of his own home. If he's really serious about his credibility as a fighter he could do a full-contact sparring match or actual fight with someone on video camera and prove it.

2) I don't think it really matters whether we are talking about an MMA fight or a street fight. I believe the outcome would be the same. An MMA fighter in a street fight can do anything that a Martial Artist in a street fight can do so Bruce Lee trying to use all of the "foul tactics" that are illegal in MMA to win wouldn't necessarily give him an advantage. I have the book Tao of Jeet Kune Do. There's some good stuff in there but a lot of it is based on theories. Bruce Lee didn't mention anything in his notes about the importance of defending against takedowns. Not only do you have to know how you need to drill it in training until you get a real feel for what it is like to stuff a takedown. What do you think would really happen if a skilled grappler took Bruce Lee to the ground, mounted him and pounded him in the face? Is he going to poke them in the eyes, bite them or scratch them to escape? No, he would need to know how to defend himself off of his back and I know that he trained with Gene Lebell and knew some grappling moves but I don't think he was on the level of college wrestlers, BJJ Black Belts and submission grappling world champions who are all present in the UFC who also no how to strike and can do the same dirty moves on the street that he can.

3) Camera phones didn't exist until the 1990s so no Bruce Lee and his friends wouldn't be walking around with cell phones recording fights prior to his death in 1973. But video cameras did exist. If Bruce Lee walked in to a bar or some public place and someone challenged him on the spot then no I don't expect to see that on camera and obviously most people don't walk around recording themselves fighting even today. There is a higher probability of being caught on camera thanks to camera phones that didn't exist when Bruce Lee was alive. But if he wanted to defend his reputation as a skilled Martial Artist he could have entered Martial Arts competitions. If he didn't like the rules he could have recorded a fight in his backyard or some private location. We have no video of these sparring matches Jim Kelly was talking about. There's also a lot of talk about Bruce Lee in challenge matches with other Martial Artists (ex. Wong Jack Man, Yoichi Nakachi and extras on the set of his movies). Why is there no video? I'm not saying that none of these fights or sparring sessions happened but if they had recorded any of these fights we would be able to assess his fighting skills. The lack of video indicates to me that Bruce Lee didn't want to document his fighting exploits. Many Martial Artists back then feared exposure. If they tested themselves they did it privately because they didn't want to be embarrassed by a loss. Bruce Lee seemed like he didn't feel he had anything to prove but he has been described by friends as being down for any challenge. If extras really were challenging him on the set of his films, with all of those cameras around he could have easily asked the crew to film the fight and kept it in his archive. But that didn't happen. There's literally no footage of Bruce Lee in a real fight despite the opportunity to film some. He couldn't have predicted that people would be debating this years after his untimely death but if he wanted to prove he was the real deal and not just an actor he could have filmed something.

4) Calling Cain Velasquez a shorter, chubby Mexican as if he isn't a world class athlete and seasoned professional fighter is rather disrespectful. I don't know what his ethnicity has to do with anything but we all know that MMA is not a bodybuilding contest and we know that shorter fighters can beat taller fighters. You can check my post history for my thoughts on Brock Lesnar. Clearly he is an exceptional athlete but as far as being "The Baddest Man on the Planet" well he was UFC Heavyweight champion but he got exposed pretty quickly and embarrassingly didn't he? I don't personally like him however I think he could easily get Bruce Lee to the ground and pound the hell out of him. We're talking about a Heavyweight vs. a guy the size of a natural Bantamweight here. Bruce Lee as a serious Martial Artist is more appealing than a brute like Lesnar but we should know all too well from MMA that the more intelligent and graceful fighter doesn't always win. Sometimes size, strength and overall athleticism matter more than technique and Lesnar's wrestling and superior size is going to matter more than Bruce Lee's striking and street fighting mentality in my opinion.

1mn..

 

[Shaddows]

What are you, 12 years old?

People who say Bruce Lee was an amazing fighter, based on a few film clips of him wailing his hands around in a completely nonsensical manner. As if he had some inexplicable mysticism and knowledge of some secret fighting techinque.

It's akin to believing the art of aikido is superior to MMA.

Not to mention completely ignoring the physical characteristics and things like grip strength which matter tremendously in a fight.

Where does this completely cartoonish, childish dream that he was an amazing fighter come from?
People have no problem joking about the ridiculous Steven Seagal, but when it comes to Bruce Lee you get those ridiculous fanboys "but bro he was so fast, an amazing martial artist would be ufc champ bro!".

Fucking ridiculous.

Watch and learn, TS. It's with commentaries.


Now take the word of another martial artist you may know: