another shooting at ft hood.

[Torami]

Not every shotgun holds 5-9 slugs. Both weapons have their advantages and disadvantages.. but for CQC, I'd take a 12-gauge over an AR-15 - but we're splitting hairs, they're both amazing killing machines indoors.

Ok so we are bringing USAS-12 with 20 rounds? Guess we can move to the aurora killers level with an AR with a 100 drum beta.

 

[Torami]

Prove my argument wrong then. I claimed ease of reload is the only actual advantage the AR has. Which is exactly what you just wrote.

If I have to shoot my targets 5 times with an AR to kill/incapacitate them but only once with a shotgun, I have the potential to do at least as much damage as the AR in a similar time frame.

I'm not trying to say a shotgun is BETTER at killing people than an AR, just that it's not necessarily or substantially WORSE. In a war zone, with hard cover, accuracy, and distance to take into consideration of course the AR is superior, but when discussing mass shooting scenarios it's simply not true that an AR will always be better at killing people than other types of weapons. There are just too many variables.

5 shots to incapacitate someone is disengenuous. 2-3 max depending where you hit them. You left out your other pro of penetration. In the aurora killers short time span the majority of his kills and injuries caused came from the m16. The ar easily wins against the unprotected and unarmed when your only goal is to raise hell and do as much damage as possible.

 

[ben236]

Not every shotgun holds 5-9 slugs. Both weapons have their advantages and disadvantages.. but for CQC, I'd take a 12-gauge over an AR-15 - but we're splitting hairs, they're both amazing killing machines indoors.

Shotguns are great for their stopping power. But why would you need to worry about stopping power in a gun free zone? It's not like the people you shoot will have anything to shoot back with anyways.

 

[45ACP]

5 shots to incapacitate someone is disengenuous. 2-3 max depending where you hit them.

Bullshit. There are literally 100s of documented cases of insurgents in AFG/IRAQ taking 5+ hits from an M4 before succumbing. A .22 caliber bullet that doesn't expand and often passes right through the body without hitting any major organs or arteries will not always be effective.

You left out your other pro of penetration. In the aurora killers short time span the majority of his kills came from the m16. A shotgun could not have reach those levels.

Penetration is not a pro when discussing the .223 round's lethality. It is only a pro when discussing shooting through cover, or body armor, which isn't very necessary during a shooting spree.

I'm not sure why you're still trying to argue that an AR is better at killing than a shotgun in every conceivable scenario when there are a significant number of combat vets who disagree with you. Are you really incapable of admitting that at close range there is no better man-stopper than a 12g slug?

 

[Torami]

I'm not sure why you're still trying to argue that an AR is better at killing than a shotgun in every conceivable scenario when there are a significant number of combat vets who disagree with you. Are you really incapable of admitting that at close range there is no better man-stopper than a 12g slug?

This isnt combat. This is unarmed people. Are you incapable of separating the two scenarios? Penetration is a pro for a mass shooter who wants to hurt as many people as possible.

 

[45ACP]

This isnt combat. This is unarmed people. Are you incapable of separating the two scenarios? Penetration is a pro for a mass shooter who wants to hurt as many people as possible.

So you are incapable.

Do you know what a "through-and-through" is? It's a result of over-penetration which the .223 round is well known for.

A round that leaves a wound cavity and stays embedded in the body is much more effective than one that passes straight through and out the other side. Which is quite common with standard military-issued 5.56 ball ammo.

 

[Torami]

So you are incapable.

Do you know what a "through-and-through" is? It's a result of over-penetration which the .223 round is well known for.

A round that leaves a wound cavity and stays embedded in the body is much more effective than one that passes straight through and out the other side. Which is quite common with standard military-issued 5.56 ball ammo.

Ok so thanks for reiterating my point? That is a round that can hit another person as well, accomplishing what the shooter wants

 

[Scrody]

Everyone needs to read this before talking about stopping power, how many shots it takes to kill etc.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

 

[jlagman]

The Port Arthur shooting involved a pump shotgun, which subsequently got it banned. The point isn't that shotguns are especially deadly (though the Antis will make anything sound deadlier than it is, see "assault rifle" misnomer again), when no one can shoot back, the gun used hardly matters.

 

[mantronix]

Why are we talking shotgun vs ar? I thought the shooter used a .45 and Hassan used an FN 5.7. How would banning assault weapons stopped that?

 

[Scrody]

The Port Arthur shooting involved a pump shotgun, which subsequently got it banned. The point isn't that shotguns are especially deadly (though the Antis will make anything sound deadlier than it is, see "assault rifle" misnomer again), when no one can shoot back, the gun used hardly matters.

This. The batman theater shooter used an AR15, a 12 gauge and a .40 caliber. Killed 12 people and wounded a bunch more. The VT shooter used a 9mm and a .22 handguns and killed 33 people. I think the batman shooters idea of using tear gas actually hindered his ability to kill as many people as he wanted, his high capacity drum mag for his AR failed him, making him leave the theater. A sad but true fact: high capacity magazines stopped the batman theater shooting.

 

[45ACP]

Ok so thanks for reiterating my point? That is a round that can hit another person as well accomplishing what the shooter wants

In which case neither of those people would be seriously wounded unless the round penetrated an organ or major artery.

Mass shooter fail.

 

[Torami]

This. The batman theater shooter used an AR15, a 12 gauge and a .40 caliber. Killed 12 people and wounded a bunch more. The VT shooter used a 9mm and a .22 handguns and killed 33 people. I think the batman shooters idea of using tear gas actually hindered his ability to kill as many people as he wanted, his high capacity drum mag for his AR failed him, making him leave the theater. A sad but true fact: high capacity magazines stopped the batman theater shooting.

70 injured and killed by him, 82 total victims. The beta jammed at around 50ish rounds.

 

[jlagman]

Why are we talking shotgun vs ar? I thought the shooter used a .45 and Hassan used an FN 5.7. How would banning assault weapons stopped that?

Better question to ask is, "how have creating gun free zones and screwing law abiding gun owners over reduced shootings?" I think we all know the answer to this one. :icon_lol:

 

[Torami]

In which case neither of those people would be seriously wounded unless the round penetrated an organ or major artery.

Mass shooter fail.

Right hitting more than one person with one round is a mass shooter fail. . More like a combo

 

[Kevin Rudd]

The Port Arthur shooting involved a pump shotgun, which subsequently got it banned. The point isn't that shotguns are especially deadly (though the Antis will make anything sound deadlier than it is, see "assault rifle" misnomer again), when no one can shoot back, the gun used hardly matters.

don't let facts get in the way of your bullshit.

Port Arthur was semi-automatic rifles. He used an AR-15 and a FN FAL.

 

[Scrody]

70 injured and killed by him, 82 total victims. The beta jammed at around 50ish rounds.

Yeah, but he still killed less than the VT shooter, despite having more powerful weapons. The spray and pray that people see in movies is just that: movies.

 

[mantronix]

70 injured and killed by him, 82 total victims. The beta jammed at around 50ish rounds.

You missed the point and you should edit this, you are missing a 12.
His argument is that a shooter with "lesser" weapons managed a higher death toll than a guy all tacticaled out, with tear gas even. By the way, the batman guy started off with the shotgun.

 

[Scrody]

You missed the point and you should edit this, you are missing a 12.
His argument is that a shooter with "lesser" weapons managed a higher death toll than a guy all tacticaled out, with tear gas even. By the way, the batman guy started off with the shotgun.

Which probably killed the majority of his victims.

 

[Torami]

You missed the point and you should edit this, you are missing a 12.
His argument is that a shooter with "lesser" weapons managed a higher death toll than a guy all tacticaled out, with tear gas even. By the way, the batman guy started off with the shotgun.

you missed the point where I said he injured 70. The 12 others were self injuries getting away. Not from the guns.

By the way, the batman guy started off with the shotgun

Fired 2 shots into the air then the last 4 before switching to the ar.