All Time GOAT poll

ferrisjso said:
I feel if he cleans out HW they are going to go the "one positive test invalidates a whole career" route like the cowards they are.
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The guy has had numerous, repeated, and different roid/banned substance issues for the last decade. True cowards defend the record of a man who's been chronically been caught cheating (and trying to cheat) against several of his opponents. LOL, what's more cowardly than someone who doesn't think they can win (clean), so (feels that they have to) resorts to cheating in order to gain an edge? And talks smack all along the way. Who raised you!?!
 
Deceasedxo said:
People who slate jones for peds are just in denial about the fact that most if not all athletes use peds in some way or another.
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Spoken like a true conservative (If **I** feel the need to cheat, then ALL MY OPPONETS must be doing it too! Even though they're getting the same tests, and not coming out hot!)
 
I'm not a Bones fan and would never sound the trumpets of GOAT. Realistically speaking though I will not dismiss his accomplishments either. He very well could be the GOAT right now. If not he has everything in front of him to certainly cement it if he has success at HW.
 
Uncertainly Principled said:
"shitload" = 4, one of which was actually for cocaine, one for the dick pills, then the 2 "pulsing" turinabol ones
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It's true that it was only 4. But this makes it sound like if one accepts the pulsing-idea then all 4 could be dismissed. Is that really the case?

Reading up on it it does seem people are very critical of his 2016 failed test for anti-estrogen etc.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Jones#Failed_drug_tests


UFC 200
On July 8, 2016, a urine sample from Jones tested positive for two banned substances, clomiphene, an anti-estrogen substance, and letrozole, an aromatase inhibitor, prior to his scheduled championship bout with Cormier at UFC 200. The violation was from an "A" sample collection on June 16, with subsequent testing of the B sample confirming the doping. Both drugs, which are on the World Anti-Doping Agency banned substances list, are described as "hormone and metabolic modulators", which are not allowed to be used in or out of competition.[235][236] As a result, Jones had to withdraw from the event, and was replaced by former middleweight champion Anderson Silva.[237] Throughout the ordeal, Jones maintained his innocence, claiming that he was the victim of a contaminated product that he believed to be Cialis, which was later independently obtained, tested and found to be contaminated by the United States Anti-Doping Agency.[238] On November 7, 2016, it was announced that Jones was issued a 1-year suspension by USADA following his arbitration hearing, though the panel concluded that Jones did not take the banned substances intentionally, and was not a drug cheat.[239]


And regarding the "2 Pulsing" tests.
Is that true?
As I recall it he did pop for Turinabol legit one time and then the pulsing talk started when he popped for Turinabol the second time.

Wikipedia only mentions pulsing in the chapter about UFC 232.

For UFC 214 pulsing isn't mentioned, only that he popped for Turinabol.
Uncertainly Principled said:
It is funny how people take the authority's word for the positive tests, but not the authority's word in mitigation for Jones
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This is worth considering.
I remember when the pulsing thing happened - before other experts had really made any claims regarding pulsing - and most fans were very confident that pulsing was complete bullshit.

I haven't read up on it since, maybe most external experts call bullshit - but I remember thinking it would be quite sad if the scientific community later would agree that pulsing was a legit phenomenon - and everyone on Sherdog had just decided not to believe it because they went with their own gut feeling.
 
Before Ali, GOAT was thrown at the worst player of a team ironic-style. Then Ali came and called himself the GOAT because he's the greatest of all time. All this GOAT-talk nowadays is kindergarden-snowflake stuff. There is only one GOAT. Ali boumaye!
 
franquito said:
Is there anything he could do at HW to convince you otherwise?


It seems to me that almost every argument against his place as #1 rests on the positive steroid tests. I am not making this thread to argue that is invalid. I am not even arguing that Jones is the GOAT. I am simply asking those who rank someone else higher, if he has a path to reach that #1 rank in your mind.


A win over Stipe is easily dismissed due to age and cumulative damage

Gane got out-wrestled by Francis

Outpointing Francis, Lewis, Tai, could be downplayed due to relative slowness and lack of diverse striking

A win over Blaydes or Aspinall would be impressive, but they are ranked lower in the top 10


If he comes back and tests clean, what HW wins would cement his status as the greatest, in your eyes?
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Jones is the LHW GOAT, pre-USADA.
Cormier is the LHW GOAT, post-USADA.

And I don't believe in P4P discussions.
 
The people who rag on and on about the PED issues being their problem with acknowledging his accomplishments always conveniently leave out that he also notoriously spent his camps blasted on cocaine, blackout drunk, smoking weed, and partying. And was even worse of a degenerate outside of camp, who also often let himself go and get fat.

His PED use is nowhere near the same as if he were some squeaky clean athlete who was training optimally, eating optimally, sleeping optimally, etc., 24/7 that got that push on top of being the best you could possibly be naturally. THAT is when it's truly and possibly an unfair advantage.

When your lifestyle however is as bad as Jones', it's far more likely that PEDs were the only thing making him capable of training and competing like somebody WITHOUT his lifestyle. Not were pushing him past those optimal natural athletes to an unfair advantage. PEDs were bringing him to a regular athlete, not some kind of superathlete. Take away the 7am party nights out and you'd have had that, but that's not Jones.

It's also all just such a dumb argument to begin with when we very often have no idea what peoples levels are comparatively. People sit here and act like a "pass" is the same thing as "normal" when it's not. The levels are always allowed up to the complete upper limit of humans and only fail THEN once we've passed the never before seen naturally occurring range. Not are flagged as soon as they pass the average athlete's levels and an investigation is opened to figure why you're in the upper realm of humanity. You've got guys 1 molecule away from failing and you have no idea about it because it's not registered as a fail even though it's absolutely unusual, meanwhile their opponent can be sitting there naturally at 4x less levels. Both pass, but it's clearly not fair then.

We have zero idea what is "fair" chemically unless we actually kept every athlete to the exact same levels, or only matched them to similar levels. We don't do that, so the people sitting here pretending passes and fails are the end all be all of what's a fair fight have their heads completely in the sand. Not surprising though as this exact misunderstanding is what got TRT banned even though the TRT users were the only ones having their levels blood regulated and standardized meanwhile their opponents weren't and could just "pass" a piss test.
 
Jones can never be the unanimous goat because there are fighters who have achieved comparable success who don't have the asterisks. You could call him the goat LHW if only because there are no other clear contenders in that division, but when you talk in general? No way. Never. Maybe goat for wasted potential.
 
Uncertainly Principled said:
"shitload" = 4, one of which was actually for cocaine, one for the dick pills, then the 2 "pulsing" turinabol ones

It is funny how people take the authority's word for the positive tests, but not the authority's word in mitigation for Jones

If you read that article & that data is enough to discount Jones as a GOAT candidate for you, fair play. For me it's totally irrelevant, particularly after reading that.
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what an odd way to think. what if reality wasnt real, man? they proposed the rule and allowed one person to bend it. the integrity is gone.
 
Can he invent a time machine and win fighting clean?
 
How about the fact that the unit of measurement he's been popped for - picograms - wouldn't even appear on a test in GSP's era? (Most Jones haters place GSP above him in the UFC GOAT argument it seems)

THEY ALL DOPE. especially in the pre-pico days.


Jones is the UFC GOAT. he could take the belt and defend it 4x and break all the records and haters will still h8

- also - back in the day I was a massive Jones hater. Remember those guys saying he should be penalized for those front kicks to the knee and crying that he was only dominant because he belonged at HW? You probably don't, because most of you scrubs are in your early 20s. But that was a thing. I've matured. I can appreciate the talent.
 
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Juiced to the gills on multiple occasions. Out of any GOAT discussion, sorry.
 
If Jones moves up and collects the title or two or three wins, I'll consider him he GOAT regardless of fail ped tests.
 
franquito said:
Is there anything he could do at HW to convince you otherwise?


It seems to me that almost every argument against his place as #1 rests on the positive steroid tests. I am not making this thread to argue that is invalid. I am not even arguing that Jones is the GOAT. I am simply asking those who rank someone else higher, if he has a path to reach that #1 rank in your mind.


A win over Stipe is easily dismissed due to age and cumulative damage

Gane got out-wrestled by Francis

Outpointing Francis, Lewis, Tai, could be downplayed due to relative slowness and lack of diverse striking

A win over Blaydes or Aspinall would be impressive, but they are ranked lower in the top 10


If he comes back and tests clean, what HW wins would cement his status as the greatest, in your eyes?
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Denying what is plain to see the issue, hate is blinding! The blind will continue to deny how great Jones is. That said, GSP is the GOAT
 
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