International 248 people, 66 children Palestinian dead after "Apartheid state" Israel launches airstrikes in Gaza

[Islam Imamate]

Even if the question is asked in such a manner as to be leading, offensive, or a set up?

To be clear, I'm addressing your general statement now, and am not specifically responding with regards to the content of the OP.

I mean, I do get what you're saying, and it's often an annoyance when people do that, as they can be ducking; however, sometimes it's called for and makes a valid point, despite being a question (while simultaneously being kind of an answer) - which is basically my point. When dealing with a dishonest org like CNN, I see it as fair game.

I agree to an extent but I still wouldn't say that the guy "destroyed" the interviewer or whatever, its usually a bad look when you respond to a question with a question. There's value to it in illuminating the underlying assumptions of the question that is asked of you but that works better when you can have a long form back and forth but that's rarely the case with a CNN interview.

It does happen yes, for example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amona,_Mateh_Binyamin
Of course I'm not saying it happens all the time or the the situation is just or fair, I just said that it wasnt as simple as was presented ITT.

That's an illegal settlement that was built on Palestinian land in the West Bank in 1995 which international law recognizes as illegal. Sheikh Jarrah is the case of Palestinian families living there for decades dating back the mid 20th century. If that same logic was applied equally to the Israeli settlers imagine how many of them would be evicted. But of course the law isn't applied equally here and that's the issue.

Depends what you mean by `right of return`. The Palestinians in East Jerusalem have the opportunity to receive an israeli citizenship and become equal rights ciizens of Israel, they refuse to do so on a moral basis.

They have that right but it involves a long, bureaucratic process and their permanent residency status is revoked if they leave the city for a certain period of time. Meanwhile Jews were automatically given citizenship and can take the homes of Palestinians despite being gone from their homes for decades.

Let's be honest about what is going on here, there's a whole bureaucratic apparatus set up here to slowly push out Palestinians and move in Jewry fueled by the systemic advantages given to Jews. You can quibble about the details but that's basically the reality there and Palestinians are made out to look like the bad guys when they resist this bureaucratic ethnic cleansing.

 

[dannialn]

Yeah cool hypothetical scenario. Now in the actual reality : what does attacking innocent bystanders, what israeli do everyday, and burning the Holy for muslims Masjid Al Aqsa and throwing tear gas grenade in it accomplish ?

Nothing, and if you would've asked me that that would've been my response and not some whataboutism about the other side.
Although I do disagree with your presentation, Al Aqsa wasnt attacked out of the blue, what in hell would be the goal of that? There was a huge amount of people throwing rocks and molotovs at Jewsish demonstrators and police (Al Aqsa sits on the temple mount, the holiest site in Judaism and is barred for Jews to access, every year some come to manifest against that as religious discrimination on Jerusalem day). The police here failed miserably at containing the situation but its not like someone just decided to burn down Al Aqsa out of spite.

 

[Samjj]

Deflecting from what? You're claiming that I liked a problematic post so I am asking which one so I can explain why I liked it. If you can produce one I'll be happy to explain. If I don't even know what you're talking about its hard for me to address the issue.

If you're honestly being sincere here and not passive aggressively trolling me in false naivete - please elaborate why you liked these posts - if not to show support to Hamas' activity in firing rock salvos at civilian populations.
https://ibb.co/qrsGkQD

 

[Samjj]

Let's be honest about what is going on here, there's a whole bureaucratic apparatus set up here to slowly push out Palestinians and move in Jewry fueled by the systemic advantages given to Jews. You can quibble about the details but that's basically the reality there and Palestinians are made out to look like the bad guys when they resist this bureaucratic ethnic cleansing.

Again, here it sounds like you're justifying violence.

 

[Kaiowas]

It's all good, Jared is currently brokering a peace deal between Israel and Sri Lanka that should put an end to all hostilities in the region.

 

[Kaiowas]

If you're honestly being sincere here and not passive aggressively trolling me in false naivete - please elaborate why you liked these posts - if not to show support to Hamas' activity in firing rock salvos at civilian populations.
https://ibb.co/qrsGkQD

Why shouldn't Hamas be allowed to fight back against the people who illegally occupy Palestine?

 

[Samjj]

Why shouldn't Hamas be allowed to fight back against the people who illegally occupy Palestine?

What does Sheich Jarrah have to do with firing massive rocket salvos at civilian populations?

 

[dannialn]

That's an illegal settlement that was built on Palestinian land in the West Bank in 1995 which international law recognizes as illegal. Sheikh Jarrah is the case of Palestinian families living there for decades dating back the mid 20th century. If that same logic was applied equally to the Israeli settlers imagine how many of them would be evicted. But of course the law isn't applied equally here and that's the issue.
.

I dont understand, you asked if there are cases in which the Israeli courts decided to evict Jews because they settled on land owned by Palestinians (exactly the same situation as in Sheikh Jarrah) and I gave you one. How is it not the same?
Many Jewish settlements also exist for decades, that means you support not evicting them?

They have that right but it involves a long, bureaucratic process and their permanent residency status is revoked if they leave the city for a certain period of time. Meanwhile Jews were automatically given citizenship and can take the homes of Palestinians despite being gone from their homes for decades.
.

What the hell does the bureaucratic process has to do with anything if they refuse to accept Israeli citizenship on a moral basis? Even if it is complicated, and afaik its not, so? getting a visa to go to the us is a complicated bureaucratic process so what.

Let's be honest about what is going on here, there's a whole bureaucratic apparatus set up here to slowly push out Palestinians and move in Jewry fueled by the systemic advantages given to Jews. You can quibble about the details but that's basically the reality there and Palestinians are made out to look like the bad guys when they resist this bureaucratic ethnic cleansing.
.

This just doesnt sit that well with reality in which 20% of Israeli citizens are arabs, mostly of Palestinian descent, a demographic whose growth in rate is second only to the orthodox Jews.
Yes, many radical right wingers in Israel see the `Jewification` of Jerusalem as a holy goal for them, same goes for the other side. Jerusalem is, and always has been, a powder keg of religious zealots.

 

[Kaiowas]

What does Sheich Jarrah have to do with firing massive rocket salvos at civilian populations?

Why is the West Bank under illegal occupation and Gaza under an illegal blockade/siege?

 

[EnthusiastCultivator]

I side with the Palestinians in this one. Israel has been playing with fire too much recently. Bombing Syria, pushing their settlement acquisitions further despite having made a deal with Gulf Countries to halt the annexation any further. Regardless, of what you think, Israel doesn’t have the right to fire at a mosque that is so important for Muslims.

Terrorist state.

 

[Samjj]

Why is the West Bank under illegal occupation and Gaza under an illegal blockade/siege?

Why is the sky blue? We can go on forever like this...

 

[dannialn]

Yeah cool hypothetical scenario. Now in the actual reality : what does attacking innocent bystanders, what israeli do everyday, and burning the Holy for muslims Masjid Al Aqsa and throwing tear gas grenade in it accomplish ?

Only noticed you wrote `hypothetical scenario`. What I wrote is happening now in Israel.
A synagogue burned https://www.jns.org/arab-israelis-in-lod-riot-set-fire-to-synagogue/
Rioters attack hospital and staff https://hamodia.com/2021/05/11/dozens-arabs-riot-inside-assaf-harofeh-hospital/
Lynching attempts https://www.israeltoday.co.il/read/dramatic-footage-shows-muslims-try-to-lynch-jews-in-jerusalem/

etc

 

[Islam Imamate]

If you're honestly being sincere here and not passive aggressively trolling me in false naivete - please elaborate why you liked these posts - if not to show support to Hamas' activity in firing rock salvos at civilian populations.
https://ibb.co/qrsGkQD

What's wrong with those posts? One is pointing out the completely disproportionate effect of the violence and the reality of the bureaucratic ethnic cleansing that Israel imposes on the Palestinians which is almost always downplayed by Israel's defenders. The other is pointing out Palestinain civilian deaths at the hands of the IDF which virtually always vastly outnumber the deaths on the Israeli side. And the funny thing is that post was responding to one of yours that was justifying the bombing of Gaza.

you poke the sleeping bear, you're going to get fucked. don't poke the bear.

I guess Israeli violence is justified but Palestinians are in the wrong if they don't embrace Gandhian non-violence.

Again, here it sounds like you're justifying violence.

"Resist" doesn't necessarily mean hurling rockets at civilians, I'm against that for moral and practical reasons. But resisting people trying to push you out of your homes is legitimate because its those who seek to evict you because you're not part of their vision of a pure ethnostate that are morally in the wrong. Some random Israeli family in Tel Aviv is completely different from the police who aid and abet the evictions.

I dont understand, you asked if there are cases in which the Israeli courts decided to evict Jews because they settled on land owned by Palestinians (exactly the same situation as in Sheikh Jarrah) and I gave you one. How is it not the same?
Many Jewish settlements also exist for decades, that means you support not evicting them?

Except its not exactly the same situation at all.

As far as Jewish settlements, I'd support their non-eviction if there was a complete moratorium on Palestinian evictions and if Palestinians were granted more freedom of movement and the right to settle in Israel just as the Jews are granted the right to move to Palestine and settle there. Then yeah there would be no need to evict Israeli settlers if Palestinians were allowed to go into Israel and settle there legally. Would you be okay with that? If not, why should Jewish Israelis be allowed to move into Palestine and evict Palestinians when Palestinians aren't even allowed freedom of movement within Palestine?

What the hell does the bureaucratic process has to do with anything if they refuse to accept Israeli citizenship on a moral basis? Even if it is complicated, and afaik its not, so? getting a visa to go to the us is a complicated bureaucratic process so what.

Because the whole point is to make ti harder for Palestinians to live in Jerusalem and to make it as easy as possible for Jews to move in, eve at the expense of the Palestinians families living there for decades. Otherwise, why weren't they offered automatic citizenship like the Jews? I'd be less sympathetic to the Palestinian families if they were offered that and still refused.

This just doesnt sit that well with reality in which 20% of Israeli citizens are arabs, mostly of Palestinian descent, a demographic whose growth in rate is second only to the orthodox Jews.
Yes, many radical right wingers in Israel see the `Jewification` of Jerusalem as a holy goal for them, same goes for the other side. Jerusalem is, and always has been, a powder keg of religious zealots.

Are those Arab Israelis given the same right to retake homes if those homes are occupied by Jewish families? Is it happening at anywhere near the same rate?

And beyond that, we know the Palestinians without Israeli citizenship are under Israeli sovereignty but certainly don't have the same rights and are subjected to a bureaucratic regime that systematically favors Jewish settlers and Jewish Israelis and whose purpose is to expel the Palestinians

 

[Samjj]

What's wrong with those posts? One is pointing out the completely disproportionate effect of the violence and the reality of the bureaucratic ethnic cleansing that Israel imposes on the Palestinians which is almost always downplayed by Israel's defenders. The other is pointing out Palestinain civilian deaths at the hands of the IDF which virtually always vastly outnumber the deaths on the Israeli side. And the funny thing is that post was responding to one of yours that was justifying the bombing of Gaza.

I guess Israeli violence is justified but Palestinians are in the wrong if they don't embrace Gandhian non-violence.

"Resist" doesn't necessarily mean hurling rockets at civilians, I'm against that for moral and practical reasons. But resting people trying to push you out of your homes is legitimate because its those who seek to evict you because you're not part of their vision of a pure ethnostate that are morally in the wrong. Some random Israeli family in Tel Aviv is completely different from the police who aid and abet the evictions.

Except its not exactly the same situation at all.

As far as Jewish settlements, I'd support their non-eviction if there was a complete moratorium on Palestinian evictions and if Palestinians were granted more freedom of movement and the right to settle in Israel just as the Jews are granted the right to move to Palestine and settle there. Then yeah there would be no need to evict Israeli settlers if Palestinians were allowed to go into Israel and settle there legally. Would you be okay with that? If not, why should Jewish Israelis be allowed to move into Palestine and evict Palestinians when Palestinians aren't even allowed freedom of movement within Palestine?

Because the whole point is to make ti harder for Palestinians to live in Jerusalem and to make it as easy as possible for Jews to move in, eve at the expense of the Palestinians families living there for decades. Otherwise, why weren't they offered automatic citizenship like the Jews? I'd be less sympathetic to the Palestinian families if they were offered that and still refused.

Are those Arab Israelis given the same right to retake homes if those homes are occupied by Jewish families? Is it happening at anywhere near the same rate?

And beyond that, we know the Palestinians without Israeli citizenship are under Israeli sovereignty but certainly don't have the same rights and are subjected to a bureaucratic regime that systematically favors Jewish settlers and Jewish Israelis and whose purpose is to expel the Palestinians

I can't and won't justify civilian casualties as a result from Israeli airstrikes. From a simply logical perspective I have a hard time finding a non-military solution to a very military problem.
Disparities of casualty rates are pretty much a direct result of the asymmetric nature of the warfare and Hamas' repeated use of human shields. What do you think is a feasible response from a government whose civilians are subjected to massive rocket salvos? To wait and not react? To fire back?

 

[TheGreatA]

It seems to me that the two parties responsible are the current Isreali government and Hamas. Both parties seem to benefit from prolonging and escalating the conflict, and preventing any sort of a diplomatic, peaceful conclusion from being reached.

The threat of violence from Palestinians is a fine distraction from the government's troubles elsewhere, particularly the on-going corruption trial, and Hamas seems to have no problem playing their part as Israel's boogeyman, to bail out the current government and make them seem useful to the public.

You can take one out of the equation but the other will still be left to cause havoc.

 

[Kaiowas]

Why is the sky blue? We can go on forever like this...

The occupation and ethnic cleansing are the root cause of all the problems, not the blue sky.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I can't and won't justify civilian casualties as a result from Israeli airstrikes. From a simply logical perspective I have a hard time finding a non-military solution to a very military problem.
Disparities of casualty rates are pretty much a direct result of the asymmetric nature of the warfare and Hamas' repeated use of human shields. What do you think is a feasible response from a government whose civilians are subjected to massive rocket salvos? To wait and not react? To fire back?

I'm not saying that violence is never justified but that seemed to be what you were implying when you accused me of justifying violence. Not all violence is equal and context matters. Of course Israel can't sit by and get hit by rockets but my point here and elsewhere is that I don't think Palestinians being evicted should be expected to either. Furthermore, people tend to blame the Palestinians for firing first but they don't see it that way, they see the structural violence of the Israeli occupation as the original sin and I think there's a lot of truth to that.

As far as the claim of Hamas using human shields, well they live in Gaza which is one of the most densely populated places on earth. I'm not saying that Hamas doesn't consciously exploit this but any military action is going to affect civilians either directly or indirectly.

 

[Samjj]

The occupation and ethnic cleansing are the root cause of all the problems, not the blue sky.

With that logic, Palestinian leadership is not culpable or responsible for any failures of leadership, failures of achieving a lasting peace, and any act of violence against the occupying force is justified. It is a tremendously skewed view of reality.

 

[Samjj]

I'm not saying that violence is never justified but that seemed to be what you were implying when you accused me of justifying violence. Not all violence is equal and context matters. Of course Israel can't sit by and get hit by rockets but my point here and elsewhere is that I don't think Palestinians being evicted should be expected to either. Furthermore, people tend to blame the Palestinians for firing first but they don't see it that way, they see the structural violence of the Israeli occupation as the original sin and I think there's a lot of truth to that.

As far as the claim of Hamas using human shields, well they live in Gaza which is one of the most densely populated places on earth. I'm not saying that Hamas doesn't consciously exploit this but any military action is going to affect civilians either directly or indirectly.

If the original sin is the occupation which is a direct result of the creation of the Jewish state - then Israel's continued existence as a nation state is all the justification you need for continued violence. Israel is an occupier and oppressor regardless of continued settlement expansion or dispossession in East Jerusalem. The natural conclusion from that chain of logic is that Israel doesn't possess a moral or justified ground for its existence... which is obviously an inherently problematic view point to have if your goal is to end an ongoing conflict.

 

[Kaiowas]

With that logic, Palestinian leadership is not culpable or responsible for any failures of leadership, failures of achieving a lasting peace, and any act of violence against the occupying force is justified. It is a tremendously skewed few of reality.

You finally get it. All Israel has to do is abide by international law, the Geneva Conventions (to which they're a signatory), and UN SC Resolution 242 which the US even supported but refuses to enforce.