Elections 2020 Democratic Primary Thread v4

[franklinstower]

Any Warren supporters left? Any of you want to defend her recent actions?

I am a Bernie supporter through-and-through. However her actions as despicable as they have been pale in comparison to most other politicians

 

[bobgeese]

I and most of the people I know do not need any aid, have healthcare, own our homes etc.

But I work in a particular field where I am placed in contact with those in society that are the most broken. I know and have known far, far to many whose best really is a low paying job. These people are deeply valuable and good people and they deserve to enjoy a certain bare minimum of safety and security.

My foundation on all of this thinking is Christianity and its bias for the poor and the broken. Jesus told us to feed the poor and provide for their medical care and needs and to give housing to the homeless.

He said these things to preserve the spiritual emotional and psychological development of the poor and broken and perhaps equally importantly, for the wellbeing of those who have more than they will ever need and the damage done to their souls by not sharing.

There is also the larger issue of God and Christ trying to grow everyone into a certain spiritual level where we can all enjoy a profound intimacy with God and share in God's consciousness and the blessing this will pour into the world.

All of this kind of growth is difficult on its face and made doubly difficult when the survival instinct and the fear that comes with it, is being triggered over and over throughout a day. It is in everyone's best interests to give the weakest among us a bare minimum of security.

Health care, a wage that provides for all of one's needs, and secure housing are necessary for this to happen.

“Free money, free housing, and free healthcare, that’s all”


Do you freaking hear yourself? What kind of fantasy do you exist in? We are highly advanced apes flying around on a rock competing for limited resources. How TF does everyone magically get free houses?

Who builds these houses?

Who pays the water and gas bill?

Who pays property tax?

What about everyone who works for a living? Why would they keep working if we’re just handing out magic cash?






Your policies are so far removed from reality that I can’t imagine an intelligent person holding those beliefs. I can only think that you are so emotionally driven (I don’t mean that as an insult, you deeply want to help people, and that’s a good thing) that your desire to “help” people overrides any facts which may get it the way. It’s truly fascinating.



PS, your really not helping people when you reward their bad behavior.

 

[franklinstower]

“Free money, free housing, and free healthcare, that’s all”


Do you freaking hear yourself? What kind of fantasy do you exist in? We are highly advanced apes flying around on a rock competing for limited resources. How TF does everyone magically get free houses?

Who builds these houses?

Who pays the water and gas bill?

Who pays property tax?

What about everyone who works for a living? Why would they keep working if we’re just handing out magic cash?






Your policies are so far removed from reality that I can’t imagine an intelligent person holding those beliefs. I can only think that you are so emotionally driven (I don’t mean that as an insult, you deeply want to help people, and that’s a good thing) that your desire to “help” people overrides any facts which may get it the way. It’s truly fascinating.



PS, your really not helping people when you reward their bad behavior.

I understand that you don't want these policies implemented that is OK with me. I don't think they sound very unreasonable at all when posed by a serious person in favor of them. When they are framed by those who were against such policies they can sound less realistic. Also free housing is not a policy I have spoken of I have spoken of affordable housing.

 

[bobgeese]

I understand that you don't want these policies implemented that is OK with me. I don't think they sound very unreasonable at all when posed by a serious person in favor of them. When they are framed by those who were against such policies they can sound less realistic. Also free housing is not a policy I have spoken of I have spoken of affordable housing.

And how do people with no jobs, unwilling to work, get affordable housing?

Btw, reminder, I think we will eventually have a UHC system.



They sound completely unreasonable. The only reason you think some sound reasonable presenting it, is because they’re lying through omission.



What is your reaction to democrats in the primary rightfully calling out Bernie and warren for unrealistic proposals?


I’m guessing you ignore the facts, because you just want to “help people”.

 

[franklinstower]

And how do people with no jobs, unwilling to work, get affordable housing?

Btw, reminder, I think we will eventually have a UHC system.



They sound completely unreasonable. The only reason you think some sound reasonable presenting it, is because they’re lying through omission.



What is your reaction to democrats in the primary rightfully calling out Bernie and warren for unrealistic proposals?


I’m guessing you ignore the facts, because you just want to “help people”.

It sounds like your sticking point is people unwilling to work. I think I can meet you there but I can't meet you with people who are willing but cannot, or who work, but at low paying jobs.

 

[xcvbn]

I agree, democrats running their entire campaign on giving away impossible sums of money is disgusting. Mostly because they know it’s a lie, and their voters are either too stupid, or too emotionally driven to recognize that.


You’re all going to be black pilled worse than me after a failed progressive presidency.

We gave away $5T in Iraq and Afghanistan

We gave away $1T to Wall Street

At least when we give away a few trillion to actual Americans who produce actual labor, such as massive infrastructure building, our country will bear real fruit that is real gdp growth, dignified labor, a highly educated populace, and a healthier populace.

 

[franklinstower]

^^^^^^
UHC is more than practical and costs the country less than our present system while providing better quality of care. A livable minimum wage is also a net benefit to the economy. Free college and trade schools will also pay for themselves IMO but I have not really done a ton of research on that policy as it is not of primary concern to me.

@bobgeese

 

[bobgeese]

It sounds like your sticking point is people unwilling to work. I think I can meet you there but I can't meet you with people who are willing but cannot, or who work, but at low paying jobs.

We are halfway there.

I’ve said many times, if you are not of able mind and body, you should be taken care of.


Here is our main disagreement.

You want to reward those who have made terrible life choices. They had an opportunity at an education, they wasted it. Many if not most abused drugs/alcohol. Many had children out of wedlock. They all wasted their lives doing nothing, deliberately ignored the very easy path to succes in America. They wasted their lives and opportunities to the point where they offer nothing of value to society other than the ability to flip a burger. These are not broken people, these are pieces of shit.


I think those folks are exactly where they belong.

I would gladly trade every lazy, apathetic, opportunity wasting American for a driven hard working immigrant. There is nothing I despise more than Americans who wasted their opportunity.

 

[bobgeese]

We gave away $5T in Iraq and Afghanistan

We gave away $1T to Wall Street

At least when we give away a few trillion to actual Americans who produce actual labor, such as massive infrastructure building, our country will bear real fruit that is real gdp growth, dignified labor, a highly educated populace, and a healthier populace.

A) I’m with you in principle

B) “Americans who produce labor”

You realize the people milking unemployment for years at a time, aren’t they people building your bridges, right?


Are you old enough to remember “shovel ready jobs”?

 

[IGIT]

Bernie is bringing' the ruckus! I love it. Say what you want about him, I was a pro Trumper type sick of the establishment...

hiya RoJo303,

if folks want a bomb-thrower-in-Chief - that is to say, someone who will really shake things up domestically - its Mr. Sanders.

under President Trump, the status quo has been maintained.

Income inequality, indeed, has grown on President Trump’s watch. And the numbers back them up.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019...-obama-trump-administations-economy-politics/

the rich have gotten richer, widening the gap between the "haves and have nots".

Income inequality has reached its highest level in at least 50 years, according to new U.S. government data released today

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/...t-on-record-boosting-democrats-message-003706

this has been a bi-partisan effort, also.

Barack Obama, bears at least some blame for the fact that our postrecession gains have been distributed mostly among the already rich. Trump simply took an existing wealth gap and widened it.

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019...s-good-news-for-the-rich-and-no-one-else.html

Mr. Trump hasn't stuck his finger in the eye of the establishment; unless you see the "establishment" as ordinary American men and women, along with future taxpayers (who are going to be footing the bill for his tax cut).

- IGIT

 

[xcvbn]

A) I’m with you in principle

B) “Americans who produce labor”

You realize the people milking unemployment for years at a time, aren’t they people building your bridges, right?


Are you old enough to remember “shovel ready jobs”?

And I’m with you in principle

I just happen to accept that a few lazy people will make out like bandits to the tune of thousands per year

The difference is that with the current system you appear to accept that a few lazy people will make out like bandits to the tune of billions per year

 

[franklinstower]

We are halfway there.

I’ve said many times, if you are not of able mind and body, you should be taken care of.


Here is our main disagreement.

You want to reward those who have made terrible life choices. They had an opportunity at an education, they wasted it. Many if not most abused drugs/alcohol. Many had children out of wedlock. They all wasted their lives doing nothing, deliberately ignored the very easy path to succes in America. They wasted their lives and opportunities to the point where they offer nothing of value to society other than the ability to flip a burger. These are not broken people, these are pieces of shit.


I think those folks are exactly where they belong.

I would gladly trade every lazy, apathetic, opportunity wasting American for a driven hard working immigrant. There is nothing I despise more than Americans who wasted their opportunity.

I don't want to reward those who have made terrible life choices (this is dishonest framing) and I do not align with your thinking that the person working at the gas station has made terrible choices. Many of these people have done the best they can.

However I think that argument is a bad one anyway-- it is society that produces these jobs and they need filled. I can't relate to punishing them for filling them. I want those who work at jobs our society requires to be filled to have a base level of quality of life.

UHC, affordable or free higher education including trade schools (which breaks cycles of poverty) and a livable minimum wage seem to me the bare necessities.

 

[IGIT]

Bernie is a much larger threat than Trump.

herro RoJo303,

to the establishment and to fortified corporate interests?

yes, Mr. Sanders is.

- IGIT

 

[franklinstower]

This is related to this topic in that it addresses in a deep way how corporate wealth and power and the influence that goes with it is a cancer on our society that needs remedied. This issue is at the base of a number of candidates running in this primary including Warren and Sanders.

 

[IGIT]

It's pathetic, and I'd love to see Bernie smash the shit of her if it ever gets brought up on the debate stage.

hiya HereticBD,

i got no beef with you, HereticBD, so don't take this personally.

*ponders*

why is it that right leaning folk are constantly waiting, with baited breath, for Mr. Sanders (or for a while, Tulsi Gabbard) to unload on the DNC? there seems to be a real craving for Mr. Sanders to tell voters that the Democratic National Committee (and candidates they support, like Mrs. Clinton in 2016) are venal and hopelessly corrupt.

the strange thing about this is that these same people on the right who want to see Sanders set the DNC on fire, are also completely opposed to the kind of agenda Mr. Sanders is pursuing.

i think you all are going to be letdown, lol. Bernie did not take a flamethrower to Mrs. Clinton; he's not going to do so to Mrs. Warren.

at least on the left, Mr. Trump didn't really change the paradigm of a policy based race. the candidates are discussing ideas, not engaging in a pie throwing contest.

- IGIT

 

[RoJo303]

herro RoJo303,

to the establishment and to fortified corporate interests?

yes, Mr. Sanders is.

- IGIT

Greeting IGIT,'

You are indeed correct. Sanders is more pro the average people than Trump has been/will be. Mr Sanders has been consistent in his 5 decades in politics, while Trump has done the exact opposite of what he promised, made Israel Great Again and gave America the big shaft. He has been an excellent Trojan horse and I have to give credit where credit is do: the Neocon lobby and military intelligence that thrust Trump in to power really and truly fooled the American people in a way only Obama can challenge.

View media item 32379

 

[Social Distance Warrior]

I am a Bernie supporter through-and-through. However her actions as despicable as they have been pale in comparison to most other politicians

I'm trying to find some rival political shit tactics...

what GWB did to McCain was pretty terrible.

the swift boating of John Kerry was below the belt imo.


@Trotsky @Jack V Savage any other memories come to mind?

 

[IGIT]

Amazing stuff from July 2003, two months after the US invaded Iraq, around the time when many people started to realize the war effort would not be a smooth one.

Joseph Biden, Jr. reiterated his support for the war and stated that preventing Iraq from acquiring WMD would have been sufficient justification to attack Iraq and overthrow the Saddam Hussein regime.

hello and nice to meet you, Aldo4Ever!

in 2003, between 52 - 59% of Americans supported the Iraq War. 35 - 39% opposed it. the numbers fluctuated somewhat through the year.

Joe Biden was in step with America, and in step with folks who are current giants in the Senate for the GOP, like Lindsey Graham, who said; Now that hostilities have begun, it is time for the nation to come together and support our men and women in uniform. Any disagreements Americans may have had in the past should give way to our shared commitment to see this effort through. Our thoughts and prayers are with our soldiers, sailors and Marines in the field.

as the current Senate leader, Mitch Mcconnell said in 2003, "Iraq is now the central battlefield in the War on Terror".

if the sentiments on the Iraq war mattered, the GOP would never see the inside of the Oval Office for the next 100 years. sadly, that stuff is old news.

i don't think anyone really cares about it any longer.

- IGIT

 

[bobgeese]

And I’m with you in principle

I just happen to accept that a few lazy people will make out like bandits to the tune of thousands per year

The difference is that with the current system you appear to accept that a few lazy people will make out like bandits to the tune of billions per year

Those people

A) took risks and manage an empire

B) provide jobs and products

C ) pay taxes



These are not equivalent.

 

[bobgeese]

I don't want to reward those who have made terrible life choices (this is dishonest framing) and I do not align with your thinking that the person working at the gas station has made terrible choices. Many of these people have done the best they can.

However I think that argument is a bad one anyway-- it is society that produces these jobs and they need filled. I can't relate to punishing them for filling them. I want those who work at jobs our society requires to be filled to have a base level of quality of life.

UHC, affordable or free higher education including trade schools (which breaks cycles of poverty) and a livable minimum wage seem to me the bare necessities.

But you ARE rewarding them.


And yes, the 35 year old guy pumping gas made shitty life choices.


They’re not punished, they are paid what society values them at. Not much. Because that’s what they’ve done with their lives and opportunities, not much.