Elections 2020 Democratic Primary Thread v4

Who do you support most out of the remaining Democratic candidates?

  • Tom Steyer (Entrepreneur)

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Pete had an excellent answer to this that didn't get the good press it deserved. His response to one of Warren's hypocritical shots at him was to ask her whether or how much she was corrupted by the big money she took. Served two purposes. Calling her out on bullshit, and answering the "third person effect" purity test (I can stay pure taking big money but other people can't) flawlessly by showing that her taking big money didn't corrupt her. It's a bunch of horseshit that you're falling for here, and you should stop falling for horseshit. Sanders is straightforward and consistent on the issue, but he's also a zealot and probably just wrong.
Pete pwn3d Warren there, but not because money in politics isn't corrupting, but because Warren is a self-serving hypocrite on the issue, like many issues. Bernie doesn't have that problem and he is fundamentally right on the issue. Feel free to disagree, but believe me, neither him or I are falling for any bullshit.
 
Incredible awareness of American society. Everyone owes it to themselves and their children to listen up


That was so money

I dunno about the 1930s Germany comparison. There were only around 500,000 Jews in the country at the time, not quite comparable to his point (I presume) about Hispanic immigration that Trump ran on.

And when the Nazis took power, they actually implemented policies placing the interests of the country as a whole before those of municipalities, a reduction of class distinction in both a monetary and humanitarian sense, full employment, free education, massive public works programs, improved social services and family welfare, pro-environmental legislation, emphasis on health and physical fitness, etc. It's a huge reason such an enormous swath got on board and stayed through the bitter end.

For all the card tricks and smoke 'n mirrors involved, there was still a good deal of legitimacy to the 'economic miracle'. Hitler didn't do a whole lot beyond enacting the policies devised for him by Hjalmar Schacht and Robert Ley. They were able to mobilize the existing talent and capability of the labor force to turn it into a legitimate superpower within six years. Talent being that this nation was the de facto world leader in STEM, and they took deep root in that culture to achieve their objectives.

Schacht not only stabilized the mark during the hyperinflation in the 1920s but was also responsible for just about anything positive to come of the NSDAP in the 1930s. It became set on an irrevocably unsustainable course when Hitler put Göring in charge of the New Four Year Plan geared for war, which is what eventually led to Schacht's voluntary resignation as Minister of Economics although he remained Reichsbank President for another 14 months. One of the few dudes to stand trial for crimes against humanity at Nuremberg after the war and be cleared.

The big downside to the boom for desirables is that all unions were abolished and nationalized into the sole DAF. It was harsh as shit, touted "for the greater good" and all but mandatory lest you find yourself escorted to an actual concentration camp with other undesirables. Other programs initiated like Kraft durch Freude were designed to make the ordinary German worker at least feel like the government was making an effort on their behalf.
 
I dunno about the 1930s Germany comparison. There were only around 500,000 Jews in the country at the time, not quite comparable to his point (I presume) about Hispanic immigration that Trump ran on.

And when the Nazis took power, they actually implemented policies placing the interests of the country as a whole before those of municipalities, a reduction of class distinction in both a monetary and humanitarian sense, full employment, free education, massive public works programs, improved social services and family welfare, pro-environmental legislation, emphasis on health and physical fitness, etc. It's a huge reason such an enormous swath got on board and stayed through the bitter end.

For all the card tricks and smoke 'n mirrors involved, there was still a good deal of legitimacy to the 'economic miracle'. Hitler didn't do a whole lot beyond enacting the policies devised for him by Hjalmar Schacht and Robert Ley. They were able to mobilize the existing talent and capability of the labor force to turn it into a legitimate superpower within six years. Talent being that this nation was the de facto world leader in STEM, and they took deep root in that culture to achieve their objectives.

Schacht not only stabilized the mark during the hyperinflation in the 1920s but was also responsible for just about anything positive to come of the NSDAP in the 1930s. It became set on an irrevocably unsustainable course when Hitler put Göring in charge of the New Four Year Plan geared for war, which is what eventually led to Schacht's voluntary resignation as Minister of Economics although he remained Reichsbank President for another 14 months. One of the few dudes to stand trial for crimes against humanity at Nuremberg after the war and be cleared.

The big downside to the boom for desirables is that all unions were abolished and nationalized into the sole DAF. It was harsh as shit, touted "for the greater good" and all but mandatory lest you find yourself escorted to an actual concentration camp with other undesirables. Other programs initiated like Kraft durch Freude were designed to make the ordinary German worker at least feel like the government was making an effort on their behalf.
You could say Trumps admin lacks foresight and imagination

Or the neo-fascists are just lazy but this is something that has got the Christian Right licking their chops which makes shutting the lunacy down all the more important. Those people have tremendous motivation and resources to make systematic oppression a reality. They just appear to lack real power and infrastructure. Trump has certainly boosted the former with his judicial nominations

appreciate your well thought out response. Good read
 
I dunno about the 1930s Germany comparison. There were only around 500,000 Jews in the country at the time, not quite comparable to his point (I presume) about Hispanic immigration that Trump ran on.

And when the Nazis took power, they actually implemented policies placing the interests of the country as a whole before those of municipalities, a reduction of class distinction in both a monetary and humanitarian sense, full employment, free education, massive public works programs, improved social services and family welfare, pro-environmental legislation, emphasis on health and physical fitness, etc. It's a huge reason such an enormous swath got on board and stayed through the bitter end.

For all the card tricks and smoke 'n mirrors involved, there was still a good deal of legitimacy to the 'economic miracle'. Hitler didn't do a whole lot beyond enacting the policies devised for him by Hjalmar Schacht and Robert Ley. They were able to mobilize the existing talent and capability of the labor force to turn it into a legitimate superpower within six years. Talent being that this nation was the de facto world leader in STEM, and they took deep root in that culture to achieve their objectives.

Schacht not only stabilized the mark during the hyperinflation in the 1920s but was also responsible for just about anything positive to come of the NSDAP in the 1930s. It became set on an irrevocably unsustainable course when Hitler put Göring in charge of the New Four Year Plan geared for war, which is what eventually led to Schacht's voluntary resignation as Minister of Economics although he remained Reichsbank President for another 14 months. One of the few dudes to stand trial for crimes against humanity at Nuremberg after the war and be cleared.

The big downside to the boom for desirables is that all unions were abolished and nationalized into the sole DAF. It was harsh as shit, touted "for the greater good" and all but mandatory lest you find yourself escorted to an actual concentration camp with other undesirables. Other programs initiated like Kraft durch Freude were designed to make the ordinary German worker at least feel like the government was making an effort on their behalf.

Great post, thanks for putting in the effort.

I don’t think the population of “the others” matters, so long as there is a group to malign.
And antisemitism didn’t appear out of nowhere in Germany, just like anti-immigrant mentality isn’t new to the USA.
It was simply weaponized and its not easily weaponize en masse without some point of distress, real or imagined.

I don’t profess to know anything about the German economy, but much like today, from a high level, our economy would look to be great, but when you see the wealth disparity and the wage stagnation that has developed over the years, isn’t it possible that Germany experienced similar stress?

And then there is the propaganda. Hitler was already an anti-Semite, the Reichstag fire gave him the power to manipulate and destroy civil rights. Etc. My point being there doesn’t have to be an exact parallel, but I think Sanders nailed it for the most part.
 
You could say Trumps admin lacks foresight and imagination

Or the neo-fascists are just lazy but this is something that has got the Christian Right licking their chops which makes shutting the lunacy down all the more important. Those people have tremendous motivation and resources to make systematic oppression a reality. They just appear to lack real power and infrastructure. Trump has certainly boosted the former with his judicial nominations

appreciate your well thought out response. Good read

Great post, thanks for putting in the effort.

I don’t think the population of “the others” matters, so long as there is a group to malign.
And antisemitism didn’t appear out of nowhere in Germany, just like anti-immigrant mentality isn’t new to the USA.
It was simply weaponized and its not easily weaponize en masse without some point of distress, real or imagined.

I don’t profess to know anything about the German economy, but much like today, from a high level, our economy would look to be great, but when you see the wealth disparity and the wage stagnation that has developed over the years, isn’t it possible that Germany experienced similar stress?

And then there is the propaganda. Hitler was already an anti-Semite, the Reichstag fire gave him the power to manipulate and destroy civil rights. Etc. My point being there doesn’t have to be an exact parallel, but I think Sanders nailed it for the most part.

Yeah, they are some points that a lot of people don't like being brought up because it comes off like you're saying the NSDAP "wasn't that bad", or that they were socialists of the same ilk as Bernie or yourselves.

Both of those things are wildly false. They were also hellbent on radical ethnonationalism, ideas of "racial hygiene", and a hyperaggressive imperialist foreign policy. There's just a bit more nuance to what they were and did beyond the infamy of World War II and The Holocaust.

It was a movement and party that had spent a whole decade scratching and clawing for support and momentum before the Great Depression hit and served as an additional springboard for their national popularity.

They were also the recipient of late entry funding in the run up to the 1933 election by German industrialists, and many of the players involved there were heads of multinational corporations which had been partially built up by way of US loans in the 1920s.
 
On that same point, I linked this earlier:

https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/01/24/conflict-vs-mistake/

That's probably a better framework for thinking of the difference than liberal vs. progressive.

Man, you love that website. It's a good one though.

Where's the overt homoeroticism?

:(

Homosexuals are not welcomed in the War Room
In the name of NoDak (peace be upon him) and every LGB person in this forum.... go fuck yourself.
Sorry I didn’t mean homosexual, I meant :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:s are not welcome in the WR

 
@Anung Un Rama

This is a fascinating first-person account from the aforementioned architect of the Nazi economy. I take his word with slightly more than a grain of salt because of 1) the tangible distance he put between himself and the regime prior to the war, and 2) because he was actually cleared during the Nuremberg trials. I guess it's worth mentioning he was arrested in 1944 for his part in the Assassination Plot.

Dude probably possessed more power and influence in the country than anyone aside from Hitler himself for a period given he was both President of the Reichsbank and Minister of Economics with an incredible amount of power to wield within German finance, commerce and industry. This all despite never officially joining the party.

Me thinks Hitler really fucked up when he took the reigns of economic policy from the hands of Hjalmar Schacht and gave them to Hermann Göring on the basis of ideology and agenda over skill and qualifications. It's akin to removing Albert Einstein from the head of your physics institute and giving leadership duties to a random undergrad.

A slight chance history could've gone a different direction.

There was a special problem connected with my visit to London in December 1938; it was my last visit abroad in an official capacity. It had been preceded by the disgraceful destruction of the Jewish synagogues on 9 November 1938, and the fine imposed on the Jews of one billion Reichsmarks.

I had made no attempt to conceal from Hitler my opinion of this latest barbarism staged by Goebbels, and had told him frankly that this kind of thing could not go on. "If you won't formulate some legal basis for the Jews in Germany by which they can live their lives in decent conditions, you must at least allow them facilities for emigration."

Hitler himself seemed ill at ease in face of the world-wide repercussions aroused by the bestiality of November 9. He gave me an enquiring look. "Have you any suggestions?"

I unfolded my plan: "The whole of the property of Jews in Germany shall be brought into a trust company who will administer it according to law. This trust company shall be governed by an international committee, on which the Jews are also represented. On the basis of this property held in trust by way of security the committee will issue a loan in the international market amounting to, say, one to one-and-a-half billion Reichsmarks.

This loan carries an interest of about five percent and is repayable by annual installments over a period of twenty to twenty-five years. The German Government guarantees the transfer of interests and repayment installments in dollars so that the loan can be issued as a dollar loan. Jews all over the world will be urged to subscribe."

"And what is to be done with the dollars?"

"Out of the dollar proceeds of this loan every Jew wishing to emigrate will receive a certain sum which will facilitate his reception in another country and serve as a foundation on which to build a new life."

I was well aware that this was not an ideal proposition. But I feared that any chance of economic existence for the Jews would be completely destroyed by the party unless something was done to prevent it. My suggestion would mean that Jewish property in Germany would be preserved intact over a period of years. In the meantime, many new developments could occur.

To my great astonishment Hitler declared he had no objection to my attempt to put this idea into practice. At my suggestion he authorized me to convene a political discussion in London. The negotiations took place there from December 14 to 17, 1938. I contacted Lord Bearsted of the firm of Samuel & Samuel, who reacted sympathetically to the proposal, while other firms, as he informed me, turned it down.

There followed a discussion with Mr. Rublee, the American and British chairman of the so-called Evian Committee, and Lord Winterton, the British Minister, both of whom as well as Lord Bearsted were interested in following up my plan and in getting to work on those lines.

But this attempt to relieve the international situation failed also when I was dismissed from my office of President of the Reichsbank by Hitler on 20 January, 1939. My official connection with London was broken.
 
OT but speaking of which @Sano, just gave this a spin for the first time in like five years. Holy Fucking FLAMES. The mic presence is nearly incomparable, most original and commanding MC ever IMO.







^ lmfao @ Lady Luck, waaaay out of her depth there.




it's crazy he has bad asthma

and I'm upset he didn't finish his last album last year, the single was cool
 
Man, you love that website. It's a good one though.

One of my favorites, for sure. Also happens to line up with the WR a lot (because the guy seems to pay a lot of attention to online discussions).
 
Pete pwn3d Warren there, but not because money in politics isn't corrupting, but because Warren is a self-serving hypocrite on the issue, like many issues. Bernie doesn't have that problem and he is fundamentally right on the issue. Feel free to disagree, but believe me, neither him or I are falling for any bullshit.
But Warren isn't corrupted by big donors. How is that not sticking to your guys' ribs? I'm sometimes perplexed by the lack of willingness to accept such obvious things.
 
I do wonder if he intends to leave his role if he fails in the primary and if so, what seat does he try to take that could get him to a national stage?
Governorship of Indiana would be a perfect start. Stay out of DC; focus on a business friendly yet pro blue collar economic plan in-state; don’t go over the top on social justice issues... I think this is the best way to go. Obama’s understated strength with white, moderate, blue collar people in the Midwest and rust belts was a big deal and also translates favorably across the country.
 
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@Anung Un Rama

This is a fascinating first-person account from the aforementioned architect of the Nazi economy. I take his word with slightly more than a grain of salt because of 1) the tangible distance he put between himself and the regime prior to the war, and 2) because he was actually cleared during the Nuremberg trials. I guess it's worth mentioning he was arrested in 1944 for his part in the Assassination Plot.

Dude probably possessed more power and influence in the country than anyone aside from Hitler himself for a period given he was both President of the Reichsbank and Minister of Economics with an incredible amount of power to wield within German finance, commerce and industry. This all despite never officially joining the party.

Me thinks Hitler really fucked up when he took the reigns of economic policy from the hands of Hjalmar Schacht and gave them to Hermann Göring on the basis of ideology and agenda over skill and qualifications. It's akin to removing Albert Einstein from the head of your physics institute and giving leadership duties to a random undergrad.

A slight chance history could've gone a different direction.

There was a special problem connected with my visit to London in December 1938; it was my last visit abroad in an official capacity. It had been preceded by the disgraceful destruction of the Jewish synagogues on 9 November 1938, and the fine imposed on the Jews of one billion Reichsmarks.

I had made no attempt to conceal from Hitler my opinion of this latest barbarism staged by Goebbels, and had told him frankly that this kind of thing could not go on. "If you won't formulate some legal basis for the Jews in Germany by which they can live their lives in decent conditions, you must at least allow them facilities for emigration."

Hitler himself seemed ill at ease in face of the world-wide repercussions aroused by the bestiality of November 9. He gave me an enquiring look. "Have you any suggestions?"

I unfolded my plan: "The whole of the property of Jews in Germany shall be brought into a trust company who will administer it according to law. This trust company shall be governed by an international committee, on which the Jews are also represented. On the basis of this property held in trust by way of security the committee will issue a loan in the international market amounting to, say, one to one-and-a-half billion Reichsmarks.

This loan carries an interest of about five percent and is repayable by annual installments over a period of twenty to twenty-five years. The German Government guarantees the transfer of interests and repayment installments in dollars so that the loan can be issued as a dollar loan. Jews all over the world will be urged to subscribe."

"And what is to be done with the dollars?"

"Out of the dollar proceeds of this loan every Jew wishing to emigrate will receive a certain sum which will facilitate his reception in another country and serve as a foundation on which to build a new life."

I was well aware that this was not an ideal proposition. But I feared that any chance of economic existence for the Jews would be completely destroyed by the party unless something was done to prevent it. My suggestion would mean that Jewish property in Germany would be preserved intact over a period of years. In the meantime, many new developments could occur.

To my great astonishment Hitler declared he had no objection to my attempt to put this idea into practice. At my suggestion he authorized me to convene a political discussion in London. The negotiations took place there from December 14 to 17, 1938. I contacted Lord Bearsted of the firm of Samuel & Samuel, who reacted sympathetically to the proposal, while other firms, as he informed me, turned it down.

There followed a discussion with Mr. Rublee, the American and British chairman of the so-called Evian Committee, and Lord Winterton, the British Minister, both of whom as well as Lord Bearsted were interested in following up my plan and in getting to work on those lines.

But this attempt to relieve the international situation failed also when I was dismissed from my office of President of the Reichsbank by Hitler on 20 January, 1939. My official connection with London was broken.


Oh yeah... sounds like a great guy: let’s seize property from Jewish people and put it into a trust and then encourage them to get out of Germany with the interest payments.

Really kind hearted plan there
 
But Warren isn't corrupted by big donors. How is that not sticking to your guys' ribs? I'm sometimes perplexed by the lack of willingness to accept such obvious things.

Goes back to that conflict vs. mistake framework. You're thinking that people are just making a mistake, that if you make a good rational argument or provide some evidence, you'll reach an agreement, while a lot of people think that even discussing the issue on those terms proves that you're on the side of the evil corporations.
 
Oh yeah... sounds like a great guy: let’s seize property from Jewish people and put it into a trust and then encourage them to get out of Germany with the interest payments.

Really kind hearted plan there

Nah, but it would've been a preferable alternative.
 
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