【Top5】Greatest Japanese Fighters in MMA history

[Kforcer]

You dont acknowledge Aoki to be better than Nakamura? Even if its be possible it was a good style matchup for Nakamura, Keita has got plenty of opportunitied and dint get it done in the elite even as much often as Aoki did.

You mean the fight to take place at any pariticular point or just a virtual matchup both in their best version? Saku certainly wasnt his best version vs Akiyama, in his late 30s and plenty of beatings and injuries

KTaro is bigger than Aoki man. I dont think he could compete at 145. Also he was getting beat by Picket and Larson...they sent him down to a failed attempt at LW not GSP. Aoki finished guys as Emerson or Murayama for so many years.

I can't stand Aoki, but submitting Kawajiri--ironically for a Kawajiri superfan like me with basically my favorite move--is just an amazing feat.

 

[JacJeanFinger]

How many times, then, have you seen a guy take a Kimura from inside the opponent's butterfly guard? Its unusual and at the very least, if nothing else, its not a position from which Sakuraba has taken the Kimura in any of his other fights, reinforcing the fact that he has a varied attack.

I thought sakuraba got figure 4 locked on for a kimura after passing one leg.....technically making it half guard kimura. Nothing unusual about set-up.

 

[JacJeanFinger]

You dont acknowledge Aoki to be better than Nakamura? Even if its be possible it was a good style matchup for Nakamura, Keita has got plenty of opportunitied and dint get it done in the elite even as much often as Aoki did.

You mean the fight to take place at any pariticular point or just a virtual matchup both in their best version? Saku certainly wasnt his best version vs Akiyama, in his late 30s and plenty of beatings and injuries

KTaro is bigger than Aoki man. I dont think he could compete at 145. Also he was getting beat by Picket and Larson...they sent him down to a failed attempt at LW not GSP. Aoki finished guys as Emerson or Murayama for so many years.

Aoki is definitely better than nakamura in many aspects. Aoki definitely beat some guys who might give ktaro a world of trouble. However, If they fought against each other aoki would get beat by the face planter.

 

[pankrat]

Its reasonable to envision Okami getting the nod, but I think both in wrestling and grappling Sakuraba has the edge and I think the speed, angles and ability to adjust that Sakuraba has when it comes to takedowns would mean the fight was going to the mat at some point. I think another factor is that, even if Okami was able to fend off Sakuraba's submissions, would that lead then to him being off balance and ultimately being controlled and having the pace of the fight dictated to him? Okami has a judo background, not a straight wrestling background and he's better from the clinch; the lower-body wrestling isn't his strong suit and of course, that's where Sakuraba shines.

I think a big factor in Okami's success on the Japanese circuit was that his control-based style was a good antidote for the catch-infused, submission heavy style that was still common the circuit at the time. But that style is much harder to deal with when employed by someone with elite wrestling like Sakuraba as well as strong positional grappling. I think, just like with Kikuta, Sakuraba's ability to chain his submission attacks together would also be huge, assuming that he was able to get in deep on a double wrist-lock/Kimura in a manner similar to what Ryuta Sakurai was able to do. Saku would be comfortable switching to a knee-bar attempt off a rolling DWL as he did against Rampage or switching to a focus on top control, etc. in a way Sakurai wasn't necessarily.

In a sense, they are similar on paper but they also have styles that are in a sense, the antithesis of one another. In that respect, it'd be hard to really make a call in a match without seeing it. I would definitely predict Sakuraba would get it to the mat though and I think he would at least be able to have effective "catches" on Okami. I'm sure Okami and Noboru Asahi, would do some intense research into Sakuraba's game.

Hard to tell, ring or cage would be a factor as well but either way I dont think is fair to envision Okami with barely two years in Wajutsu and in his debut in the main stage vs Sakurai.

Okami took his first MMA class at 20 years old, arrived almost raw to proffesionalism with his high school judo. Didnt got involved in MMA as a technically educated pro wrestler and grown man; evolved along the way.

Okami in 2010 vs Marqaurdt or 2013 vs Lombard is in a whole other level in every aspect than a decade before: standup, takedowns, ground game, conditioning and estrategy. Not only took the lead of Japanese fighters in America in the cage, but also in training. Hired Matt Lindland as head coach for a while and trained in many top gyms in America.

There is some good footing on the best room for big fighters in Asia, Wajutsu KK back when Yushin, Dong Kim, Akiyama, Fukuda, Hasegawa, etc were training there:


Saku is especial and I can certainly envision him getting the better of Okami. I think the closest sample would be Jon Fitch back in 2015 attacking Okami's legs. But it was a declined version of Okami, and badly conditioned by a tough weightcut that let him out of gas at midfight. I'd favour Yushin if they've fought in
2010 at MW/LHW.

I think the version of Okami that dominated Dean Lister or Mark Munoz - who sortly after beat Demian Maia - would be trouble for Saku to get much going offensively. I think Okami was a nightmare for almost any grappler in MMA and would have favour him vs Maia in 2010.

Its a testament of both the decline of JMMA and the longevity of Okami, since early 2000s I dont think any 170-185lber has emerged from Japan that would be favoured to beat even this highly declined 38 years old version Okami.

Often underrated - or under appreciated for not taking risks - he is arguably the finest Ground & Pound specialist to ever come out from Japan. Regarding this it's interesting this chop about Yushin's display inside Lister guard:

https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/8/...p-yushin-okami-anderson-silva-attacking-guard

 

[pankrat]

Its reasonable to envision Okami getting the nod, but I think both in wrestling and grappling Sakuraba has the edge and I think the speed, angles and ability to adjust that Sakuraba has when it comes to takedowns would mean the fight was going to the mat at some point. I think another factor is that, even if Okami was able to fend off Sakuraba's submissions, would that lead then to him being off balance and ultimately being controlled and having the pace of the fight dictated to him? Okami has a judo background, not a straight wrestling background and he's better from the clinch; the lower-body wrestling isn't his strong suit and of course, that's where Sakuraba shines.

I think a big factor in Okami's success on the Japanese circuit was that his control-based style was a good antidote for the catch-infused, submission heavy style that was still common the circuit at the time. But that style is much harder to deal with when employed by someone with elite wrestling like Sakuraba as well as strong positional grappling. I think, just like with Kikuta, Sakuraba's ability to chain his submission attacks together would also be huge, assuming that he was able to get in deep on a double wrist-lock/Kimura in a manner similar to what Ryuta Sakurai was able to do. Saku would be comfortable switching to a knee-bar attempt off a rolling DWL as he did against Rampage or switching to a focus on top control, etc. in a way Sakurai wasn't necessarily.

In a sense, they are similar on paper but they also have styles that are in a sense, the antithesis of one another. In that respect, it'd be hard to really make a call in a match without seeing it. I would definitely predict Sakuraba would get it to the mat though and I think he would at least be able to have effective "catches" on Okami. I'm sure Okami and Noboru Asahi, would do some intense research into Sakuraba's game.

Not a Japanese but Sakuraba vs Dong Kim at WW could be a great fight btw

 

[Kforcer]

Often underrated - or under appreciated for not taking risks - he is no doubt the finest Ground & Pound specialist to ever come out from Japan.

You mean for bigger men? What about Kawajiri, Takanori Gomi, Ishida or Kid Yamamoto?

 

[Kforcer]

BTW--I am not clicking on a Dan The Wolfman link.

 

[Kforcer]

I thought sakuraba got figure 4 locked on for a kimura after passing one leg.....technically making it half guard kimura. Nothing unusual about set-up.

No, he set it up from inside Royler's butterfly. I'm almost certain. But, maybe my memory is off.

 

[Kforcer]

I thought sakuraba got figure 4 locked on for a kimura after passing one leg.....technically making it half guard kimura. Nothing unusual about set-up.

Well, it wasn't exactly as I remembered it--he set it up in Royler's half-butterfly. I had remembered it as him sitting down in Royler's full butterfly guard.

 

[Kforcer]

Not a Japanese but Sakuraba vs Dong Kim at WW could be a great fight btw

That would be very interesting. We might see the grappling version in Quintet. Actually, that's also true of Sakruaba-Okami. Granted, it is an older version of both guys.

 

[pankrat]

You mean for bigger men? What about Kawajiri, Takanori Gomi, Ishida or Kid Yamamoto?

Regarding the GnP game - controlling top position, passes, sub defense, posture ups, hand traps, clean strikes from top - Okami is a better especialist than those you mention or any other Japanese imo.

Didnt read u any other reference than the Sakurai fight back in 2004 and his clinch wrestling; but I'd say the fact he did fairly well inside Maia's guard in ADCC almost taking his back, or inside Lister's in MMA is more telling to his abilities honestly.
Okami is also a 2x ADCC Japanese qualifiers winner, holds the record for most guard passes in MW history and never got his guard passed in UFC.
Besides, the way Okami blends strikes and grappling in the ground I think has a especial knack

Kawajiri was a great GnPer too

 

[pankrat]

BTW--I am not clicking on a Dan The Wolfman link.

hahaha
Is it personal? I dont know him. Certainly an especial on-line character but I'd say he has actually a legit curriculum

 

[Kforcer]

Regarding the GnP game - controlling top position, passes, sub defense, posture ups, hand traps, clean strikes from top - Okami is a better especialist than those you mention or any other Japanese imo.

Didnt read u any other reference than the Sakurai fight back in 2004 and his clinch wrestling; but I'd say the fact he did fairly well inside Maia's guard in ADCC almost taking his back, or inside Lister's in MMA is more telling to his abilities honestly.
Okami is also a 2x Japanese ADCC qualifiers winner, holds the record for most guard passes in MW history and never got his guard passed in UFC.
Besides, the way Okami blends strikes and grappling in the ground I think has a especial knack

Kawajiri was a great GnPer too

I don't think I agree with you. Maybe among the bigger Japanese guys he's the top ground-and-pounder. Not in a pound-for-pound sense, though. Kid Yamamoto had devastating ground and pound; I was never a fan of him but he did terrible damage to his opponents when he was unleashing on top of them. Gomi was also very effective and I think Kawajiri did a great job at controlling people, fighting off submissions and pounding the crapola out of them from the top. One key distinction to me, would be damage. Okami did great at controlling his opposition on the ground, but I definitely wouldn't say he was beating them up in the same sense that Kid, Gomi or Kawajiri were. He controlled people well and struck from the top effectively but Gomi, Kid and Kawajiri are three guys that were brutal finishers from the top.

As far as Dan "The Wolfman", we were both in East Lansing at the same time for a while. He's definitely an egomaniacal self-promoter. I can't take him seriously.

 

[pankrat]

I don't think I agree with you. Maybe among the bigger Japanese guys he's the top ground-and-pounder. Not in a pound-for-pound sense, though. Kid Yamamoto had devastating ground and pound; I was never a fan of him but he did terrible damage to his opponents when he was unleashing on top of them. Gomi was also very effective and I think Kawajiri did a great job at controlling people, fighting off submissions and pounding the crapola out of them from the top. One key distinction to me, would be damage. Okami did great at controlling his opposition on the ground, but I definitely wouldn't say he was beating them up in the same sense that Kid, Gomi or Kawajiri were. He controlled people well and struck from the top effectively but Gomi, Kid and Kawajiri are three guys that were brutal finishers from the top.

As far as Dan "The Wolfman", we were both in East Lansing at the same time for a while. He's definitely an egomaniacal self-promoter. I can't take him seriously.

Well in upper weightclasses he certainly is but even p4p I think he has a case; it's not a encouraged style in the Japanese circuit much less back then anyways.

In my opinion, ur stance it's like saying a heavy puncher is better than an elite kickboxer cause he may be more devastating. Is Dan Henderson the best striker from America? Well, maybe he even has a case lol

Im looking at the technical approach

I dont think u can say a guy as Kid Yamamoto, who has being said earlier in this thread that lacked of a good ground game, can be the best ground & pounder...the contradiction is even in the term.

I think defending submissions from top is a big asset in a GnP stilist, as opposed to being caught by armbar, guillotine or gogoplata.

Kawajiri had a great GnP game too. It's arguable but I just think, apart from held the guy down or controlling top position as u say, Okami's craft - methodical and fairly boring - at building posture ups and set hand traps to shot straights from guard or full mount, blend with top notch passing ability and sub defense, makes him an all-around great GnP especialist imo.
By the way Okami used to cause lot of damage and busted up many faces with GnP even if he had not stopping power, nor killer instinct seemed sometimes.

Blending strikes and grappling is the part of the game u can't really see in any other combat sport but MMA.
What Kid Yamamoto displayed in that field...yeah had great wrestling base and was a flyweght who destroyed top lightweights with his fists, a true freak easily #1 prp ever from Japan in my book. His hands have dynamite in the ground or wherever but not an example of a great GnP game imo.

 

[Kforcer]

Well in upper weightclasses he certainly is but even p4p I think he has a case; it's not a encouraged style in the Japanese circuit much less back then anyways.

In my opinion, ur stance it's like saying a heavy puncher is better than an elite kickboxer cause he may be more devastating. Is Dan Henderson the best striker from America? Well, maybe he even has a case lol

Im looking at the technical approach

I dont think u can say a guy as Kid Yamamoto, who has being said earlier in this thread that lacked of a good ground game, can be the best ground & pounder...the contradiction is even in the term.

I think defending submissions from top is a big asset in a GnP stilist, as opposed to being caught by armbar, guillotine or gogoplata.

Kawajiri had a great GnP game too. It's arguable but I just think, apart from held the guy down or controlling top position as u say, Okami's craft - methodical and fairly boring - at building posture ups and set hand traps to shot straights from guard or full mount, along with top notch passing ability and sub defense, makes him an all-around great GnP especialist imo.
By the way Okami used to cause lot of damage and busted up many faces with GnP even if he had not stopping power, nor killer instinct seemed sometimes.

Blending strikes and grappling is the part of the game u can't really see in any other combat sport but MMA.
What Kid Yamamoto displayed in that field...yeah had great wrestling base and was a flyweght who destroyed top lightweights with his fists, a true freak easily #1 prp ever from Japan in my book. His hands have dynamite in the ground or wherever but not an example of a great GnP game imo.

I think it all depends on what you mean by ground and pound. What you are describing isn't ground and pound to me. It is ground control. "Ground and pound" means people pounding other people on the ground. The definition came from Mark Coleman who took people down and pounded the crap out of them. Its not referring to your ability to control people on the ground and win fights in that manner.

I don't think it is a contradiction to say that Yamamoto lacked a ground game but had great ground and pound, because I think it is clearly I was talking about when referencing Yamamoto's ground game was his grappling ability. I don't conflate the two. Plenty of wrestlers in MMA have effective ground and pound but no ground game in the sense of a grappling game, i.e., guard passing, submission offense and defense. Yamamoto was lacking as a grappler but he was ferocious and devastating with his ground and pound. And that is pretty common, even stereotypical, for people with great ground and pound to have underdeveloped grappling games.

I don't rate Yamamoto as highly as you do, obviously. But in the category of ground and pound, which we seem to define differently, I rate him much higher. Maybe we had the same definition of ground and pound then we would rate him more similarly.

 

[Kforcer]

Well in upper weightclasses he certainly is but even p4p I think he has a case; it's not a encouraged style in the Japanese circuit much less back then anyways.

In my opinion, ur stance it's like saying a heavy puncher is better than an elite kickboxer cause he may be more devastating. Is Dan Henderson the best striker from America? Well, maybe he even has a case lol

Im looking at the technical approach

I do see what you are saying, but if you are talking about ground and pound, then the damage you are doing to opponent's has to be factored in, IMO.

 

[pankrat]

I think it all depends on what you mean by ground and pound. What you are describing isn't ground and pound to me. It is ground control. "Ground and pound" means people pounding other people on the ground. The definition came from Mark Coleman who took people down and pounded the crap out of them. Its not referring to your ability to control people on the ground and win fights in that manner.

I don't think it is a contradiction to say that Yamamoto lacked a ground game but had great ground and pound, because I think it is clearly I was talking about when referencing Yamamoto's ground game was his grappling ability. I don't conflate the two. Plenty of wrestlers in MMA have effective ground and pound but no ground game in the sense of a grappling game, i.e., guard passing, submission offense and defense. Yamamoto was lacking as a grappler but he was ferocious and devastating with his ground and pound. And that is pretty common, even stereotypical, for people with great ground and pound to have underdeveloped grappling games.

I don't rate Yamamoto as highly as you do, obviously. But in the category of ground and pound, which we seem to define differently, I rate him much higher. Maybe we had the same definition of ground and pound then we would rate him more similarly.

yeah we dont share the same definition of GnP.
I mean if the "GnP" term owns to Mark Coleman and what Coleman used to display with it...let's not call it GnP

Call it whatever to the aspect of the game involving blending strikes and grappling in the ground, which is obviously a complex craft and, by my understanding, it involves using strikes to set up passes and posture ups, and using hand traps and ground tricks to set up clean, straight punches from top.

I don't think the style Okami mastered from Wajutsu is necesarilly a inffluence of Mark Coleman and the Hammer House

I dont agree with Kid Yamamoto being a better GnP especialist than Okami and Kawajiri. To a certain extent, I see it like saying Masvidal is the best striker in the WW division because of footwork, feints, tecnique...and arguing that Hendricks is a better striker cause look at his punching power. It was indeed devastating punching power.

I posted it above but it's directly related to the matter, this judo chop is about striking game in the ground vs a 2x ADCC openweight champion in Dean Lister and of course involves grappling skill:
https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/8/...p-yushin-okami-anderson-silva-attacking-guard

Kid Yamamoto had more devastating punches from everywhere for sure, including top position; a judo chop about his ground striking would probably be shorter though

 

[pankrat]

I do see what you are saying, but if you are talking about ground and pound, then the damage you are doing to opponent's has to be factored in, IMO.

I'd say the face of Ryuta Sakurai, Dean Lister or Jason McDonald, to name some legit ground fighters, are a testament of Okami's damage with ground strikes. Out of 17 finishes in his career, 14 are by GnP.

Yeah, he has not dynamite in his hands. Some great kickboxers dont have it neither

 

[Kforcer]

yeah we dont share the same definition of GnP.
I mean if the exact "GnP" term owns to Mark Coleman and what Coleman used to display with it...let's not call it GnP

Call it whatever to the aspect of the game involving blending strikes and grappling in the ground, before and after Coleman, which is obviously a complex craft and, by my understanding, it involves using strikes to set up passes and posture ups, and using hand traps and ground tricks to set up clean, straight punches from top.

I don't think the style Okami mastered from Wajutsu is necesarilly a inffluence of Mark Coleman and the Hammer House

I dont agree with Kid Yamamoto being a better GnP especialist than Okami and Kawajiri. I do think grappling ability to keep the fight down to not get submitted or reversed is obviously a main aspect of GnP, even if less devastating.

To a certain extent, I see it like saying Masvidal is the best striker in the WW division because of footwork, feints, tecnique...and arguing that Hendricks is a better striker cause look at his punching power. And indeed has way bigger punching power.

I posted it above but it's directly related to the matter, dont know if the GnP Mark Coleman coined but this judo chop is about striking game in the ground vs a 2x ADCC openeight champion in Dean Lister and it indeed involves lot of grappling skill:
https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/8/...p-yushin-okami-anderson-silva-attacking-guard

Kid Yamamoto had more devastating punches from everywhere for sure, including top position; a judo chop about his ground striking would probably be shorter though

I don't want to undermine Coleman here, I'll say that off the bat. Coleman was great at controlling opponent's on the ground and he actually had very strong submission defense and really, strong offense as well.

I don't think that that by factoring in the ability to deal out damage on top of your opponent has to be done at the expensive of looking at other factors, but at the end of the day, that is what ground and pound is about, isn't it? Dealing out damage to your opponent from the top. Also though, its a fact that a lot of people are very good at employing the control necessary to effectively ground and pound, but otherwise, in a lot of ways, very incomplete grapplers. A lot of wrestlers especially are great at keeping their opponents down, employing heavy hips and also controllingtheir opponents, often within the guard or half-guard of their opponent and dealing out very effective ground and pound. A lot of guys I have trained with were just like that and as I said, I think its not uncommon--they have the ability to bring the fight to the canvas and to control it using strikes and ground pressure and they don't see an urgent need to expand beyond that often. And ground control is a huge part of American scholastic wrestling in particular and also, to a lesser extent, in freestyle wrestling.

So you can and do have guys who don't have the first clue about defending or executing a kneebar or a hook-sweep or perhaps even passing guard but are very effective at keeping an opponent down, pressuring them and beating them up. I think to an extent, someone like Kid Yamamoto falls into this category. Not that his overall grappling game is totally negligible, but at his best, I think he was a high level in terms of being able to take someone down, applying pressure to them and beating the crap out of them. And I think the amount of damage he was able to employ while he was on top made that time more meaningful and the amount of control he was able to exert far more problematic for his opponents.

I don't necessarily think he was a better ground and pounder than Kawajiri, who was also unquestionably a first-rate grappler and wrestler, or Takanori Gomi, but at the same time, I haven't seen many people that did as much damage with their ground and pound as Kid Yamamoto did.

 

[Kforcer]

I'd say the face of Ryuta Sakurai, Dean Lister or Jason McDonald, to name some legit ground fighters, are a testament of Okami's damage with ground strikes. Out of 17 finishes in his career, 14 are by GnP.

Yeah, he has not dynamite in his hands. Some great kickboxers dont have it neither

Well, that's true. And being underneath him certainly doesn't seem like a good time. I just think of him as more of a guy who is great at controlling guys on the ground and grinding them out. And I think he is brilliant at that. I just wouldn't say he is the best ground-and-pounder out of Japan in a pound-for-pound sense. He's indisputably great at using ground control to win fights.