【Top5】Greatest Japanese Fighters in MMA history

You can't break out the hypothetical in this topic no matter how you look a it, more so talking p4p

Aoki is indeed unquestionably awesome, but it's highly questionable Kikuta and Okami didnt have great careers. Actually those rankings who take an "objective" or mathematical approach to the topic list Okami very high.

Anyways, is awesomeness the criteria to follow in this topic? Minowaman could very well be at the top then. But Naseem Hamed is not ranked among best boxers of all time, nor Ronaldinho is close to the best soccer player ever.
I'm a savate guy and find high level savate kickboxers particularly awesome; are they the best kickboxers though?

Other criteria you throw is impact of the sport...that's hard to measure but I guess in a thread about top5 greatest brazilian fighters in mma history you are including Royce Gracie goind by that criteria, and his brother Rickson. I guess Funaki should be in this thread then, why not Asahi, or even Takada. Hard to deny Bas Rutten as best ever from Europe (not counting Russia), or maybe #2 behind Conor.

Head-to-head may not be the way to go but any path you take in this topic won't take you out of the hypothetical.
"Awesome" as it directly pertained to Aoki's accomplishments and long standing tenure at the top of the toughest division in the sport. Not because of his personality and character. I thought that was pretty clear when I went on to clarify that everything about Aoki other than his abilities and in-ring credentials is decidedly not awesome.
 
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How is Okami comparable to Kikuta?

Okami was a perennial top 10 middleweight from 2007 until 2014, and remains arguably the most successful Japanese fighter in UFC history.
I'm offering a concession to this guy. Kikuta isn't a top 30 Japanese fighter in MMA history. Okami's ability to stay in the top 10 that long speaks to his high level skills and consistency, but also the middleweight division in the UFC being awful for years.
 
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I don't think that that by factoring in the ability to deal out damage on top of your opponent has to be done at the expensive of looking at other factors, but at the end of the day, that is what ground and pound is about, isn't it?

Agree. But just like you rate a great grappler in MMA largely by his ability to succeed vs other strong grapplers, and same goes for strikers, a great ground-and-pounder is so by his ability to work his game vs elite ground games, don't you agree?

Dealing out damage to your opponent from the top. Also though, its a fact that a lot of people are very good at employing the control necessary to effectively ground and pound, but otherwise, in a lot of ways, very incomplete grapplers. A lot of wrestlers especially are great at keeping their opponents down, employing heavy hips and also controllingtheir opponents, often within the guard or half-guard of their opponent and dealing out very effective ground and pound. A lot of guys I have trained with were just like that and as I said, I think its not uncommon--they have the ability to bring the fight to the canvas and to control it using strikes and ground pressure and they don't see an urgent need to expand beyond that often. And ground control is a huge part of American scholastic wrestling in particular and also, to a lesser extent, in freestyle wrestling.

So you can and do have guys who don't have the first clue about defending or executing a kneebar or a hook-sweep or perhaps even passing guard but are very effective at keeping an opponent down, pressuring them and beating them up. I think to an extent, someone like Kid Yamamoto falls into this category. Not that his overall grappling game is totally negligible, but at his best, I think he was a high level in terms of being able to take someone down, applying pressure to them and beating the crap out of them. And I think the amount of damage he was able to employ while he was on top made that time more meaningful and the amount of control he was able to exert far more problematic for his opponents.

I don't necessarily think he was a better ground and pounder than Kawajiri, who was also unquestionably a first-rate grappler and wrestler, or Takanori Gomi, but at the same time, I haven't seen many people that did as much damage with their ground and pound as Kid Yamamoto did.

Kid Yamamoto will always cause damage no matter where he connectsl. Now he worked such destroyer GnP - without rocking the guy before in the feet - against who? Yeah he was dropping some bombs on Bibiano but he was also getting in bad positions, threatened with subs and eventually prefered to not stay there

Gomi was a good ground-and-pounder but was he really effective in the guard of Aurelio, Kitaoka, BJ, Hanssen or the Diaz bros? At such level, he was often struggling to posture up effectively and actually got caught in submissions or found himself in bad positions in the ground.

I wonder who are those wrestlers with no ground game that you say were great ground-and-pounders. Particularly talking about American wrestlers from back in the day, given that they coined the term "GnP".

By the way I think Coleman was a better wrestler than Okami, a better more powerful TD artist, but I don't think his GnP game, against guys his size with elite ground game, was in Okami's league.

If you look at Sean Sherk vs legit ground fighters as Kiuma Kunioku or Jutaro Nakao...sure he controls top position, but does he infflict any real damage on them in the ground, like at all?
You see Pat Miletich struggling to work any offense even with the size advantage on a legit black belt in Patino. Nakao actually submitted hm off his back.

You see Okami going into legitimate world-class guards in Dean Lister or Jake Shields not just to control top position fending off subs and sweeps, but actually getting great postures from where he lands clean, effective punches. When he was going vs lesser grapplers, always ended raining down shots from full mount - 90% of his finishes came that way

I think there is a substantial difference between the work you described of "keeping the opponents down employing heavy hips", burying the head in your opponent's chest at best working some dirty GnP with short punches....and displaying a wide variety of tecniches and tactics aimed to get good positions to land clean, effective shots on world-class ground fighters.

That's what GnP game is imo beyond who has the heaviest hands. Okami and Kawajiri had imo the most refined, advanced GnP game out of Japanese fighters at any weightclass and yeah their solid grappling from top had a lot to do with it.
 
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Okami is literally just worse Akira Kikuchi guys cmon

lol at literally ^^
Kunioku ended every single round of his fight with Kikuchi on top of him landing GnP, let alone the Yoshida KO.
When did you see Okami getting held down and pounded even by better wrestlers than Kunioku and Yoshida?

When did Kikuchi outboxed his opponent for the win? Okami got a tittle shot in UFC by outboxing three guys in a row.
 
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lol at literally ^^
Kunioku ended every single round of his fight with Kikuchi on top of him landing GnP, let alone the Yoshida KO.
When did you see Okami getting held down and pounded even by better wrestlers than Kunioku and Yoshida?

When did Kikuchi outboxed his opponent for the win? Okami got a tittle shot in UFC by outboxing three guys in a row.
I'd reference the times Okami's paper mache chin got tapped and he quit on the floor but my post would exceed the character limit
 
I'd reference the times Okami's paper mache chin got tapped and he quit on the floor but my post would exceed the character limit

Doesnt seem like you have any interest on a honest dicussion but what you are saying only happened to Okami once between 2003-2013. One single time in a whole decade in the elite, and it came at the hands of #1 p4p Anderson Silva defending his belt in his hometown.

You are obviously biased though so it's cool.
 
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Doesnt seem like you have any interest on a honest dicussion but what you are saying only happened to Okami once between 2003-2013. One single time in a whole decade in the elite, and it came at the hands of #1 p4p Anderson Silva defending his belt in his hometown.

You are obviously biased though so it's cool.
That was uncool of me and I appreciate that you can appreciate him in that way. He still fought in a dogshit division while Gomi/Sakurai/Kawajiri/Aoki/et al had far tougher schedules fight in and fight out.
 
That was uncool of me and I appreciate that you can appreciate him in that way. He still fought in a dogshit division while Gomi/Sakurai/Kawajiri/Aoki/et al had far tougher schedules fight in and fight out.

That's true and I have all those guys you mention above Okami in all-time ranks too. Maybe has a close case with Kawajiri...

I also understand some hate towards him as often delivered boring fights and rarely took risks.

Said that - and largely because of that - the guy is badly underrated. That caricature you did about him earlier is unfair but actually pretty common in these boards.

Regarding he fought in a dog-shit division...beat Swick, Marquard or Lombard, who right after went to make a run to the top at WW. Was 170 a dogshit division as well? Okami actually beat Shields up at WW in a controversial dec loss.

From at least 2006 to 2013 Okami was top contender material at 185 or 170.
 
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That's true and I have all those guys you mention above Okami in all-time ranks too. Maybe has a close case with Kawajiri...

And I understand some hate towards him as often delivered boring fights and very rarely took risks.

Said that - and largely because of that - the guy is badly underrated. That caricature you did about him earlier is obviously unfair but actually pretty common in these boards.

Regarding that he fought in a dog-shit division...Okami beat Swick, Marquard or Lombard, who right after went to make a run to the top at WW. Was 170 a dogshit division as well? Okami actually beat Shields up at WW in a controversial dec loss.

From at least 2006 to 2013 Okami was top contender material at 185 or 170.
Welter was pretty overrated and GSP had some terrible defences, one of them being Hardy who beat Swick for the shot. It got much stronger towards the end of GSP's reign with the Strikeforce transfers like Lawler and Woodley fully coming into their own. I don't think Okami would've fared well in a division full of wrestlers who could bang. I see him peaking at around Rick Story level, which isnt bad, Story was a very reliable and well put together fighter.
 
Welter was pretty overrated and GSP had some terrible defences, one of them being Hardy who beat Swick for the shot. It got much stronger towards the end of GSP's reign with the Strikeforce transfers like Lawler and Woodley fully coming into their own. I don't think Okami would've fared well in a division full of wrestlers who could bang. I see him peaking at around Rick Story level, which isnt bad, Story was a very reliable and well put together fighter.

Well I'd say in his fights with Marquardt, Shields, Lombard, Muñoz and Franklin, regardless of judge veredicts, Okami showed to be a level above Rick Story

But I agree he matched up better in a division full of slow, plodding MWs that he could match in the strenght department despite giving up in weight than in a division full of more dynamic wrestle-boxers as WW
 
You know who needs to be mentioned more in these discussions? Kazuo Misaki
One of the earliest adopters of an actual counterpunching style in MMA, great body head combinations, actually could slip and duck in the pocket, great trips, also the first man to ever beat Hendo at 185lbs
Fucked Daley's shit so badly on the feet he made the British Banger turn into a grappler. Legend.
 
You know who needs to be mentioned more in these discussions? Kazuo Misaki
One of the earliest adopters of an actual counterpunching style in MMA, great body head combinations, actually could slip and duck in the pocket, great trips, also the first man to ever beat Hendo at 185lbs
Fucked Daley's shit so badly on the feet he made the British Banger turn into a grappler. Legend.

haha yeah Misaki was an all-around badass
Beautiful punching combinations and slips. And attitude. If matched up correctly he could deliver the most entertaining fights you can get.
He had a clear weaknesses though in deffending TDs or getting back up to his feet.

I think Kondo has a good case for having beat Dan Henderson by the way.
 
haha yeah Misaki was an all-around badass
Beautiful punching combinations and slips. And attitude. If matched up correctly he could deliver the most entertaining fights you can get.
He had a clear weaknesses though in deffending TDs or getting back up to his feet.

I think Kondo has a good case for having beat Dan Henderson by the way.
I think Kondo definitely beat Hendo, but the accolade of the win on paper is massive, bigger accomplishment than the PRIDE WW tournament to me which was tainted by the fact that Filho (the best MW on the planet, in fairness) rolled over Misaki earlier that night
 
You know who needs to be mentioned more in these discussions? Kazuo Misaki
One of the earliest adopters of an actual counterpunching style in MMA, great body head combinations, actually could slip and duck in the pocket, great trips, also the first man to ever beat Hendo at 185lbs
Fucked Daley's shit so badly on the feet he made the British Banger turn into a grappler. Legend.
Yep. And was somehow dominated by Trigg :(.
 
I wonder who are those wrestlers with no ground game that you say were great ground-and-pounders. Particularly talking about American wrestlers from back in the day, given that they coined the term "GnP".

Its common for American wrestlers to follow that model. Many of the guys I trained with were like that--a lot of wrestlers are averse to training Brazilian jiu jitsu or submission grappling and would just rather focus on learning to strike on the feet and pounding on an opponent on the ground. American scholastic wrestling, even more than freestyle, emphasizes ground control, what with riding time in college and unlimited mat time in high school. So coming out of folkstyle wrestling, most wrestlers are going to naturally have a sense of pressuring and controlling someone from the top. And that's without mastering the broader skill sets of submission grappling or Brazilian jiu jitsu, involving guard passing, guard retention, submissions, etc.

And that's largely in response to your comment that it was a contradiction to say someone was lacking in their ground game but was good or great at ground-and-pound. They are good in a narrow sense, specific to a certain skill-set that can be employed on the ground, but not necessarily good at a number of other areas of ground fighting or grappling. Although there is a sense in which every folkstyle wrestler that knows how to employ his skills as a good ground game. But its going to be narrow in a sense.

But as far as wrestlers who were good at ground and pound without having an exceptional ground game otherwise...? Coleman, Severn (Severn beat the crap out of a number of successful BJJ guys, including someone named Don Richards who was a big name in the Michigan jiu jitsu circuit but also did very well nationally), Tito Ortiz, Mark Kerr was great and ground and pound but obviously you can't question that he had a world-class ground game given his utter domination at Abu Dhabi. I think Coleman would have done great in grappling competition as well, honestly. Kevin Randleman had ferocious ground and pound, so did Quinton Jackson, Dan Henderson...Kenny Monday was able to show some very strong ground and pound in his single MMA outing against John Lewis who is known for his ground game.

I think we primarily have a semantic difference though, in how we are defining ground and pound. I think a lot of wrestlers are great in certain aspects of the ground game, where there are allowed to employ strikes, especially, without necessarily being good at the ground game or at grappling in a broader sense. I also think, in terms of damage, you should evaluate how well people were able to maximize their time on top to inflict damage on their opponent or to effect the fight's outcome. Whether or not its the sole criteria, I think it should have some weight. Gomi, for example, was able take full advantage of the time he had the great Hayato Sakurai in back mount, likewise for Sakurai's Team Ibaraki mates Ishida and Kawajiri. He also, when at the peak of his powers, able to control a world-class or at least very high level grappler in Ryan Bow ( Ryan Bow is older than me by a few years and he was still able to dominate both the Advanced, Senior and Open division at a Naga a couple years back) and a bonafide world class grappler in Chris Brennan using his grappling, wrestling and ground and pound. And of course, you have his performances against Rumina Sato and Mishima, both awesome grapplers and actually, able wrestlers as well. In terms of Kid Yamamoto, I'm thinking of what he did to Katsuda in particular, but generally, in his prime, he was a scary man from the top.

I would argue Kawajiri or Okami's greatness at controlling and dealing out damage from the top. In Okami's case though, I feel like if I was going to say specifically that he was the best Japanese ground-and-pounder all-time, across weights, I'd have to have seem performances where opponents wilted underneath the onslaught of his ground and pound in the same way that they did beneath the fists of Gomi, Kawajiri or Kid. If you're talking about just controlling an opponent, I think Miyata, at the peak of his powers, was as good as anyone. To me that is entering into a broader category. Kawajiri and Miyata, for example, are major submission threats, as Gomi once was and as Okami has always been, even if he doesn't pursue them as often. None of these guys would have been stymied underneath a green Joe Warren the same way Kid was and all these guys have shown in high-level no-gi competition that they are nothing to mess with (though again, to be fair to Kid, he did win that Contenders television tournament, rightfully or not).

I don't know, though, I really think this is mostly a semantic difference. I might be overrating Kid's ground and pound though, even in the narrow sense, admittedly. There was a lot of hype around Kid back when I was watching MMA all the time and his TKO of Katsuda always struck me as particularly frightening.
 
I think if Miyata's career had been handled differently, we'd all be talking about him. I sort of want to anyways because he was so frigging good. I also do think you fellows are underrating Imanari, which also happened even when he was at his best and dual Cage Rage/DEEP featherweight champion.
 
Funaki definitely was not better than Royce at 94. 94 was Royce's best year, where he actually overcame more interesting and tough opponents in the UFC
95 was Severn and Ken. No way it was Suzuki , it wasn't even the best year in his career.

96 indeed was a year where the #1 fighter was in Pancrase, but it wasn't Ken.
It was Bas.

Coleman in '96 had a great run - full of juice - to be fair
 
Coleman in '96 had a great run - full of juice - to be fair

Was nice as well, and a win over Frye was super significant. Yes he was a newcomer, and Bas had proven in this year that he was in his best shape and form, overcame every previous obstacles and was the best fighter in Pancrase, no dispute whatsoever.
 
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