【Top5】Greatest Japanese Fighters in MMA history

[JacJeanFinger]

--Sakuraba can attack effectively from basically every position.

That's prolly sudo or Takase.

People say BJ Penn can attack from everywhere but he never submited or reversed even once from the guard position. He is strictly a top player as opposed to the general assumption. Sakuraba is on the same boat here. We have never seen him submitting someone off his back or rarely seen him taking back and finishing RNC. He does most his offense from side mount. When he fights someone like kikuta who was born with elephant's legs, he has no choice but stand up and dance. He don't wanna jump to stomp because kikuta can use shrimp and catch his leg

 

[Kforcer]

--Sakuraba can attack effectively from basically every position.

That's prolly sudo or Takase.
Sakuraba...does most his offense from side mount.

I'd say that most of Sakuraba's offense comes from transitions, usually from some sort of movement or a scramble.

In Royler's case, he went directly into Royler's butterfly and submitted him. In Jackson's case, it came after a chain of attacks, a Kimura trip, then a kneebar and finally an RNC. In other cases, like Shannon Ritch, he transitioned into an Achilles finish directly off a single. He can catch people from anywhere and I think he is also great at creating a reaction and working off of that.

I also think you are overrating Kikuta's stand-up, for what it is worth, not that I think Sakuraba would be forced to stand-up.

 

[JacJeanFinger]

I'd say that most of Sakuraba's offense comes from transitions, usually from some sort of movement or a scramble.

In Royler's case, he went directly into Royler's butterfly and submitted him. In Jackson's case, it came after a chain of attacks, a Kimura trip, then a kneebar and finally an RNC. In other cases, like Shannon Ritch, he transitioned into an Achilles finish directly off a single. He can catch people from anywhere and I think he is also great at creating a reaction and working off of that.

I also think you are overrating Kikuta's stand-up, for what it is worth, not that I think Sakuraba would be forced to stand-up.

Not sure why royler fight was mentioned. Sakuraba attacked the arm from half guard securing more stable pin then passed to move onto side mount....thats his signature move that he relies on like bjj top fighters rely on backmount with 2 hooks in. And he couldn't get tap out from inescapable kimura just like gsp had trouble finishing dan hardy in the same situation.

I don't like to use rampage fight as a reference because of an obvious reason, but in fact his transition to triangle while being thrown in the air with power bomb was a beautiful thing.

Vs Newton was the fight where sakuraba went for one submission after another from multiple positions and angles. He just grabbed whenever he saw an submission opportunity while rolling. It was a great display of refined submission grappling that we were beginning to encounter in those days. The only thing that kept us wondering was the total absence of striking in the entire mat time.

 

[pankrat]

ADCC--Keira nakamura made it to semi finals where he lost to Marcelo Garcia by tapout. Aoki was submitted by the same Brazilian in the elimination round. (Kunioku met 19 years old Marcelo Garcia in his debut adcc bout. Reserver Garcia was replacing the Brazilian qualifier winner, Daniel Morales who was injured to change the history of jiujitsu, grappling and martial Arts. )

I compare nakamura and aoki with kikuta and sakuraba. It's a very effective comparison.

Who beats who?

I bet kikuta/nakamura win 8 out of 10. Grappling or mma. How much audience satisfies is of course another story.

People behind them

Sakuraba/aoki were managed by industry's leading promotion that had strong connections with mainstream media outlets and entertainment business whereas kikuta was self-employed and nakamura was with amateur gym.

As a coach

Sakuraba/aoki have produced zero international level students while kikuta/nakamura's students are always winning.

I don't see how Nakamura can be favoured over Aoki, even with the size advantage.
ADCC accomplishments aren't argument enough imo. If it were for that Dean Lister would have a much easier time handling Yuki Sasaki than Nakamura yet it was the other way around. Nakamura has struggled to impose his grappling in MMA fight much more often than Aoki.

Anyways, Aoki used to do extraordinary things, regardless of who was his manager. I think it's pretty fair to say that Okami could employ a similar strategy than Mezger to dominate Sakuraba, yet it's hard to imagine him finishing Rampage or Randleman or just having competitive losses to Nogueira or Crocop so most people have still Saku above everyone else.

 

[lukeuidswords]

Arguing this topic from a perspective of head-to-heads seems like a highway to nowhere when you can never break out of the hypothetical

You have to look at what is on paper, Kikuta and Okami were good fighters that didnt have great careers, for one reason or another, is the long and short of it. A fan could easily forget about their existence entirely, so little was their impact on the sport as a whole

Shinya Aoki is a top 10 lightweight in MMA history based on resume and accomplishment, an unquestionably awesome feat, regardless of the fact that he's a crypto degenerate and absentee father

 

[pankrat]

Arguing this topic from a perspective of head-to-heads seems like a highway to nowhere when you can never break out of the hypothetical

You have to look at what is on paper, Kikuta and Okami were good fighters that didnt have great careers, for one reason or another, is the long and short of it. A fan could easily forget about their existence entirely, so little was their impact on the sport as a whole

Shinya Aoki is a top 10 lightweight in MMA history based on resume and accomplishment, an unquestionably awesome feat, regardless of the fact that he's a crypto degenerate and absentee father

You can't break out the hypothetical in this topic no matter how you look a it, more so talking p4p

Aoki is indeed unquestionably awesome, but it's highly questionable Kikuta and Okami didnt have great careers. Actually those rankings who take an "objective" or mathematical approach to the topic list Okami very high.

Anyways, is awesomeness the criteria to follow in this topic? Minowaman could very well be at the top then. But Naseem Hamed is not ranked among best boxers of all time, nor Ronaldinho is close to the best soccer player ever.
I'm a savate guy and find high level savate kickboxers particularly awesome; are they the best kickboxers though?

Other criteria you throw is impact of the sport...that's hard to measure but I guess in a thread about top5 greatest brazilian fighters in mma history you are including Royce Gracie goind by that criteria, and his brother Rickson. I guess Funaki should be in this thread then, why not Asahi, or even Takada. Hard to deny Bas Rutten as best ever from Europe (not counting Russia), or maybe #2 behind Conor.

Head-to-head may not be the way to go but any path you take in this topic won't take you out of the hypothetical.

 

[EndlessCritic]

Arguing this topic from a perspective of head-to-heads seems like a highway to nowhere when you can never break out of the hypothetical

You have to look at what is on paper, Kikuta and Okami were good fighters that didnt have great careers, for one reason or another, is the long and short of it. A fan could easily forget about their existence entirely, so little was their impact on the sport as a whole

Shinya Aoki is a top 10 lightweight in MMA history based on resume and accomplishment, an unquestionably awesome feat, regardless of the fact that he's a crypto degenerate and absentee father

How is Okami comparable to Kikuta?

Okami was a perennial top 10 middleweight from 2007 until 2014, and remains arguably the most successful Japanese fighter in UFC history.

 

[pankrat]

How is Okami comparable to Kikuta?

Okami was a perennial top 10 middleweight from 2007 until 2014, and remains arguably the most successful Japanese fighter in UFC history.

And unbeaten 15-0 record in the Japanese circuit.

About his time as a top10 MW, Okami was grossly robbed vs Falaniko Vitale back in 2004, who was top10 at the time for recent wins over Lindland and Menne. So virtually you can say Yushin was a top10 MW for a straight decade.

In 2006, judges again didnt do him any favour vs Jake Shields. Although this was a more close contest, Okami was certainly the superior fighter in the cage that night.

 

[Kforcer]

And unbeaten 15-0 record in the Japanese circuit.

You're not counting his recent return to the Japanese circuit, I presume?

 

[pankrat]

You're not counting his recent return to the Japanese circuit, I presume?

Yeah I counted Japan based promotions (Pride, Pancrase, GCM, Deep)

Thought ONE is from Singapore. Didn't count Heros neither

 

[Kforcer]

Yeah I counted Japan based promotions (Pride, Pancrase, GCM, Deep)

Thought ONE is from Singapore. Didn't count Heros neither

You're right, ONE is from Singapore. I was thinking he had a loss in Pancrase, I was wrong. 1-0.

 

[Kforcer]

I think it's pretty fair to say that Okami could employ a similar strategy than Mezger to dominate Sakuraba

Even if you think Mezger deserved the nod--and I don't--he definitely didn't "dominate" Sakuraba. I also don't think there's any reason to assume Sakuraba wouldn't be able to take Okami down repeatedly. He does have strong wrestling, but actually, between him and Mezger, I'd say Mezger has shown the better takedown defense. If you mean that you think Okami could minimize the takedowns, defend submissions and possibly outscore Sakuraba on the feet, that's possible. But that certainly wouldn't be domination in any sense of the word. He also doesn't have the same size advantage Mezger, a perennial light heavyweight, enjoyed against Saku.

 

[Kforcer]

Not sure why royler fight was mentioned. Sakuraba attacked the arm from half guard securing more stable pin then passed to move onto side mount....t

Because the fact that he went right into Royler's butterfly guard and initiated a Kimura is unusual and another example to support the idea that Sakuraba attacked with submissions from all sorts of angles. Kimura'ing someone from their own butterfly guard--and that is where it began, not in half-guard--is certainly unusual. Sakuraba was a submission threat from anywhere, even from several feet out, ala Shannon Ritch.

 

[pankrat]

Even if you think Mezger deserved the nod--and I don't--he definitely didn't "dominate" Sakuraba. I also don't think there's any reason to assume Sakuraba wouldn't be able to take Okami down repeatedly. He does have strong wrestling, but actually, between him and Mezger, I'd say Mezger has shown the better takedown defense. If you mean that you think Okami could minimize the takedowns, defend submissions and possibly outscore Sakuraba on the feet, that's possible. But that certainly wouldn't be domination in any sense of the word. He also doesn't have the same size advantage Mezger, a perennial light heavyweight, enjoyed against Saku.

Yeah I think Mezger got the nod; basically due to clean straight hands and to a lesser extent GnP while Saku was working the single. Obviusly a very close contest.

Mezger probably had size advantage on Okami but I'd say by a slight margin. Yushin in his prime at MW was walking around at 200lbs. Not sure if Mezger was much heavier in the Saku fight

The most underrated aspect in Okami's game is ironically what given him the nod in most of his biggest wins: the standup.

By standup I dont mean as much the striking itself as I mean the wide southpaw stance with quick in-out step and good knack for distance, which played a big role on his success at preventing takedowns and keep strikers guessing.
Behind that, there was serviceable counterstriking skills and underrated punching power

Skilled wrestlers as Munoz, Shields or Tanner struggled with their wrestling largely because were forced to initiate TDs from so far away.
Legit strikers as Mike Swick or Nate Marquardt looked so sloppy trying to initiate exchanges for how far they got from the target.
It could also lead to boring, unventuful rounds surely, as vs Rich Franklin, but actually pretty effective at controlling where the fight takes place.

The only man who was succesful at taking Okami down in the UFC was Chael Sonnen in his prime in the juice. He could not keep him down though.
It's interesting what he says about Okami's use of the butterfly guard. By 2009 Sonnen was already a veteran who had seen it all and fought everywhere including Pancrase:




>>

I agree domination is not the word. I see Okami shutting down Saku' offense with a great sprawl, not just he has a strong wrestling base - especially after training in Team Quest - but I dont think he would allow Saku to get really deep in any single in the first place largely due to the standup skills described above.

In case it went to the ground Okami had extremly good fundamentals there, had no problem on playing in Lister's guard and took Demian Maia to a close dec in ADCC. Never got his guard passed in UFC.
In my opinion, he would edge Saku in the scorecards by controlling the range with his boxing, and maybe scoring with some GnP.

 

[Kforcer]

Yeah I think Mezger got the nod; basically due to clean straight hands and to a lesser extent GnP while Saku was working the single. Obviusly a very close contest.

Mezger probably had size advantage on Okami but I'd say by a slight margin. Yushin in his prime at MW was walking around at 200lbs. Not sure if Mezger was much heavier in the Saku fight

The most underrated aspect in Okami's game is ironically what given him the nod in most of his biggest wins: the standup.

By standup I dont mean as much the striking itself as I mean the wide southpaw stance with quick in-out step, which played a big role on his success at preventing takedowns and keep strikers guessing.
Behind that, there was serviceable counterstriking skills and underrated punching power

Skilled wrestlers as Munoz, Shields or Tanner struggled with their wrestling largely because were forced to initiate TDs from so far away.
Legit strikers as Mike Swick or Nate Marquardt looked so sloppy trying to initiate exchanges for how far they got from the target.

It could also lead to boring, unventuful rounds surely, as vs Rich Franklin, but actually pretty effective at controlling where the fight takes place.

The only man who was succesful at taking Okami down in the UFC was Chael Sonnen in his prime in the juice. He could not keep him down though.

It's interesting what he says about Okami's use of the butterfly guard. By 2009 Sonnen was already a veteran who had seen it all and fought everywhere including Pancrase:




>>

I agree domination is not the word. I see Okami shutting down Saku' offense with a great sprawl, not just he has a strong wrestling base - especially after training in Team Qests - but I dont think he would allow Saku to get really deep in any single in the first place largely due to the standup skills described above.

In case it went to the ground Okami had extremly good fundamentals there, had no problem on playing in Lister's guard and took Demian Maia to a close dec in ADCC. Never got his guard passed in UFC.
In my opinion, he would edge Saku in the socrecards by controlling the range with his boxing, and maye scoring with some GnP.

Its reasonable to envision Okami getting the nod, but I think both in wrestling and grappling Sakuraba has the edge and I think the speed, angles and ability to adjust that Sakuraba has when it comes to takedowns would mean the fight was going to the mat at some point. I think another factor is that, even if Okami was able to fend off Sakuraba's submissions, would that lead then to him being off balance and ultimately being controlled and having the pace of the fight dictated to him? Okami has a judo background, not a straight wrestling background and he's better from the clinch; the lower-body wrestling isn't his strong suit and of course, that's where Sakuraba shines.

I think a big factor in Okami's success on the Japanese circuit was that his control-based style was a good antidote for the catch-infused, submission heavy style that was still common the circuit at the time. But that style is much harder to deal with when employed by someone with elite wrestling like Sakuraba as well as strong positional grappling. I think, just like with Kikuta, Sakuraba's ability to chain his submission attacks together would also be huge, assuming that he was able to get in deep on a double wrist-lock/Kimura in a manner similar to what Ryuta Sakurai was able to do. Saku would be comfortable switching to a knee-bar attempt off a rolling DWL as he did against Rampage or switching to a focus on top control, etc. in a way Sakurai wasn't necessarily.

In a sense, they are similar on paper but they also have styles that are in a sense, the antithesis of one another. In that respect, it'd be hard to really make a call in a match without seeing it. I would definitely predict Sakuraba would get it to the mat though and I think he would at least be able to have effective "catches" on Okami. I'm sure Okami and Noboru Asahi, would do some intense research into Sakuraba's game.

 

[JacJeanFinger]

I don't see how Nakamura can be favoured over Aoki, even with the size advantage.
ADCC accomplishments aren't argument enough imo. If it were for that Dean Lister would have a much easier time handling Yuki Sasaki than Nakamura yet it was the other way around. Nakamura has struggled to impose his grappling in MMA fight much more often than Aoki.

Anyways, Aoki used to do extraordinary things, regardless of who was his manager. I think it's pretty fair to say that Okami could employ a similar strategy than Mezger to dominate Sakuraba, yet it's hard to imagine him finishing Rampage or Randleman or just having competitive losses to Nogueira or Crocop so most people have still Saku above everyone else.

- I don't see how Nakamura can be favoured over Aoki, even with the size advantage

Neither do most fighters and fans. Aoki is supposed to be better just like sakuraba was supposed to be better than akiyama or tatsuyoshi was supposed to be better than yakushiji. In reality, the favorite got beat convincingly.

They are about the same in size. It's just that one guy decided to compete at a lighter weight after watching GSP in action.

 

[Kforcer]

just like sakuraba was supposed to be better than akiyama

Many, many people were crying for Sakuraba's retirement before he even went to DREAM. In fact, in Pride, if I recall, they were talking about him taking fights that were going to be the "Road to Retirement." I think more people were rooting for Sakuraba than were necessarily counting on him beating Akiyama. I would certainly bet on a prime Sakuraba to best Akiyama though.

 

[JacJeanFinger]

Because the fact that he went right into Royler's butterfly guard and initiated a Kimura is unusual and another example to support the idea that Sakuraba attacked with submissions from all sorts of angles. Kimura'ing someone from their own butterfly guard--and that is where it began, not in half-guard--is certainly unusual. Sakuraba was a submission threat from anywhere, even from several feet out, ala Shannon Ritch.

Didn't think anything was that unusual in that fight except that there was an unknown dude in the gracie train.

I saw Andre galvao passing the leg on the same side he's about to secure kimuraa lock. That was unusual.

 

[pankrat]

- I don't see how Nakamura can be favoured over Aoki, even with the size advantage

Neither do most fighters and fans. Aoki is supposed to be better just like sakuraba was supposed to be better than akiyama or tatsuyoshi was supposed to be better than yakushiji. In reality, the favorite got beat convincingly.

They are about the same in size. It's just that one guy decided to compete at a lighter weight after watching GSP in action.

You dont acknowledge Aoki to be better than Nakamura? Even if its be possible it was a good style matchup for Nakamura, Keita has got plenty of opportunitied and dint get it done in the elite even close as often as Aoki did.

You mean the fight to take place at any pariticular point or just a virtual matchup both in their best version? Saku certainly wasnt his best version vs Akiyama, in his late 30s and plenty of beatings and injuries

KTaro is bigger than Aoki man. I dont think he could compete at 145. Also he was getting beat by Picket and Larson...they sent him down to a failed attempt at LW not GSP. Aoki finished guys as Emerson or Murayama for so many years.

 

[Kforcer]

Didn't think anything was that unusual in that fight except that there was an unknown dude in the gracie train.

How many times, then, have you seen a guy take a Kimura from inside the opponent's butterfly guard? Its unusual and at the very least, if nothing else, its not a position from which Sakuraba has taken the Kimura in any of his other fights, reinforcing the fact that he has a varied attack.