Trump to suspend immigration from 7 Muslim countries

[Islam Imamate]

I'm pretty consistent on my views about this type of thing. I believe if you're a Muslim you implicitly support terrorism by supporting your local mosque and I believe if you're a Catholic, you implicitly support child abuse by supporting your local church.

If an organization I supported was revealed to have done the things the Catholic Church has done, I'd stop supporting them.

Actions speak louder than words. You can say you don't agree with it, but as long as you're putting money in that collection plate, you're funding it.

Okay. I was wrong @Seano and you were right.

 

[Seano]

Okay. I was wrong @Seano and you were right.

No worries.

 

[Diamond Jim]

 

[Bald1]

I am supposed to abandon the Catholic church because of how it was portrayed in a Hollywood movie? Kids are just as likely to be molested by a school teacher than a Catholic priest. Why isn't anybody repulsed by teachers? Hollywood likely has a far worse track record of exploiting and abusing children, but it makes billions of dollars a year and it far more influential than the church.

If we tore down every institution plagued by scandal, corruption and debauchery there would no longer be institutions. Institutions are corrupt because human beings are flawed. I think there needs to be major changes in how the church deals with sexual abuse cases, but I am not going to abandon the church when reform is possible.

Priests Commit No More Abuse Than Other Males

Most child abusers have one thing in common, and it's not piety—it's preexisting relationships with their victims. That includes priests and ministers and rabbis, of course, but also family members, friends, neighbors, teachers, coaches, scout leaders, youth-group volunteers, and doctors. According to federal studies, three quarters of abuse occurs at the hands of family members or others in the victim's "circle of trust." "The fundamental premise here is that those who abuse children overwhelmingly seek out situations where they have easy and legitimate access to children," he said. "These kinds of positions offer a kind of cover for these offenders."

Priests may also appear more likely to molest children because cases of abuse come to light in huge waves. One reason is delayed reporting: less than 13 percent of victims abused between 1960 and 1980, for example, lodged a complaint in the same year as the assault. Two thirds filed their complaints after 1992, and half of those were made between 2002 and 2003 alone.

Whoa! There's just no defending an institution that is supposed to be THE moral authority, asks for your complete trust with what you hold dearest, and all the while is actively covering up the deepest betrayal I can think of. The Pope, and the church should have hunted down the pedo priests with all the might they could muster. Not covered their tracks, and therefore creating more victims. That's unforgivable shit, my dude.

 

[Joe]

what a shock turkey isnt on that list. its easy to come up with a list that you arent financially tied to.

 

[mrsenor]

 

[Seano]

Things have gone on in the world since 9/11.

We're looking at whats happening to most of Europe and saying, "nope."

 

[Devout Pessimist]

Whoa! There's just no defending an institution that is supposed to be THE moral authority, asks for your complete trust with what you hold dearest, and all the while is actively covering up the deepest betrayal I can think of. The Pope, and the church should have hunted down the pedo priests with all the might they could muster. Not covered their tracks, and therefore creating more victims. That's unforgivable shit, my dude.

@RhinoRush

There are 1.2 billion Catholics in the world. How is the church supposed to control the actions of every single Catholic? It is important to consider that there is nothing in the bible or church teaching that advocates for the sexual abuse of children. It is a tragedy what happened with the Catholic church covering up the sexual abuse cases and moving priests around, but what was done opposes what the churches teaches. According to Catholic teaching, those involved in the cover-up will likely burn in hell. There is nothing in the Catholic church that indicates people involved in abusing children will be give 50 virgins in paradise.

 

[Diamond Jim]

Things have gone on in the world since 9/11.

We're looking at whats happening to most of Europe and saying, "nope."

And since 9/11, terror attacks are mostly carried out by someone who comes from country not on the banned list. Well, a good amount are home grown. We do not have a immigration crisis like they do in Europe either.

I'm not even saying Trump is fully wrong. But if you're gonna do something like this, don't go in half ass.

 

[Bald1]

@RhinoRush

There are 1.2 billion Catholics in the world. How is the church supposed to control the actions of every single Catholic? There is nothing in the bible that advocates for the sexual abuse of children. Both the bible and the teachings of the Catholic church are strongly opposed to the corruption of children. It is a tragedy what happened with the Catholic church covering up the sexual abuse cases and moving priests around, but what was done opposes what the churches teaches. According to Catholic teaching, those involved in the cover-up will likely burn in hell. There is nothing in the Catholic church that indicates people involved in abusing children will be give 50 virgins in paradise.

It's not about any of that. Yes, I agree, they can't control any of their followers, and those actions are condemned. I went to church and bible study for years of my life so I'm familiar with the faith. The religion is ok by me, the corrupt institution ranks high on my shit list.

My beef with the RCC is they knowingly betrayed trust by actively covering up pedophilia in their ranks. Kid fucking, coupled with betrayal of trust is unforgivable. The church has moved away from much of their wrongdoings, but this is a recent chapter that's still fresh in memory, and many people are still haunted by it. The criticism isn't going away any time soon.

 

[Seano]

We do not have a immigration crisis like they do in Europe either.

.

And this is a good sign that we won't. At least not for another 4 years.

 

[RhinoRush]

@RhinoRush

There are 1.2 billion Catholics in the world. How is the church supposed to control the actions of every single Catholic?

I'm not talking about the Catholic Church or the 1.2 billion people. I'm talking about you. You acknowledge that the Catholic Church deliberately covered up thousands of cases of child abuse because the bad PR would hurt their revenue stream. And with all that knowledge, you still support them. By putting even a penny in that collection plate, you are not just implicitly supporting the abuse, you are also complicit in the abuse. If everyone stopped putting money in the plate, the church would go out of business and they wouldn't be able to hurt any more kids.

It is important to consider that there is nothing in the bible or church teaching that advocates for the sexual abuse of children.

No it isn't.

It is a tragedy what happened with the Catholic church covering up the sexual abuse cases and moving priests around, but what was done opposes what the churches teaches.

No it isn't. A tragedy is when something avoidable happens that is no one's fault. The Catholic Church deliberately did what they did, knowing how wrong it was, because they didn't want the bad PR it would bring.

According to Catholic teaching, those involved in the cover-up will likely burn in hell. There is nothing in the Catholic church that indicates people involved in abusing children will be give 50 virgins in paradise.

Again, actions speak louder than words. I don't care what it says in some 3000 year old book of superstitions. I care about what actual people who actually exist do.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

I'm not talking about the Catholic Church or the 1.2 billion people. I'm talking about you. You acknowledge that the Catholic Church deliberately covered up thousands of cases of child abuse because the bad PR would hurt their revenue stream. And with all that knowledge, you still support them. By putting even a penny in that collection plate, you are not just implicitly supporting the abuse, you are also complicit in the abuse. If everyone stopped putting money in the plate, the church would go out of business and they wouldn't be able to hurt any more kids.



No it isn't.



No it isn't. A tragedy is when something avoidable happens that is no one's fault. The Catholic Church deliberately did what they did, knowing how wrong it was, because they didn't want the bad PR it would bring.



Again, actions speak louder than words. I don't care what it says in some 3000 year old book of superstitions. I care about what actual people who actually exist do.

It is important that the actions of the priests and the Church authorities involved in the abuse scandal explicitly goes against biblical and Catholic Church teachings. It means that the actions are very clearly wrong and if there is a God, then those involved will be severely punished. The teachings of the Bible and the Church are greater than the actions of the corrupt scum who abuse the Church's power. Unfortunately, there was and are people who will go unpunished for their disgusting actions.

There is more than just a 3000 year old book guiding the Church. There is also the Catholic Catechism which was revised in 1992.

From the Catholic Catechism:

2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.

2356 Rape is the forcible violation of the sexual intimacy of another person. It does injury to justice and charity. Rape deeply wounds the respect, freedom, and physical and moral integrity to which every person has a right. It causes grave damage that can mark the victim for life. It is always an intrinsically evil act. Graver still is the rape of children committed by parents (incest) or those responsible for the education of the children entrusted to them.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P85.HTM

 

[RhinoRush]

It is important that the actions of the priests and the Church authorities involved in the abuse scandal explicitly goes against biblical and Catholic Church teachings. It means that the actions are very clearly wrong and if there is a God, then those involved will be severely punished. The teachings of the Bible and the Church are greater than the actions of the corrupt scum who abuse the Churches power. Unfortunately, there was and are people who will go unpunished for their disgusting actions.

There is more than just a 3000 year old book guiding the Church. There is also the Catholic Catechism which was revised in 1992.

From the Catholic Catechism:

2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.

2356 Rape is the forcible violation of the sexual intimacy of another person. It does injury to justice and charity. Rape deeply wounds the respect, freedom, and physical and moral integrity to which every person has a right. It causes grave damage that can mark the victim for life. It is always an intrinsically evil act. Graver still is the rape of children committed by parents (incest) or those responsible for the education of the children entrusted to them.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P85.HTM

So basically, 'Do as they say, not as they do.'

Honestly I was just surprised you're it this shit because you're a pretty good poster overall. If I came off as harsh, it's because I was just shocked that you are a supporter off that organization.

One day we'll both die and we'll see who was right.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

So basically, 'Do as they say, not as they do.'

Honestly I was just surprised you're it this shit because you're a pretty good poster overall. If I came off as harsh, it's because I was just shocked that you are a supporter off that organization.

One day we'll both die and we'll see who was right.

It is not a case of "Do as they say, not as they do." What was done is explicitly wrong according to the teachings of the Catholic Church. There is no gray area or interpretation that would justify sexually abusing children and then covering it up.

As I said in my previous post, the teachings are greater than the authorities of the Church and the authorities, just like the lay people, are expected to follow the teachings. According to Church teachings, the scum who sexually abused children are wrong and the higher-ups who tried to cover it up are wrong. Their corrupt actions do not make it okay for everyone else to copy what they do because according to Church teaching their behavior is a grave sin.

I will quote the Catechism again:

2356 Rape is the forcible violation of the sexual intimacy of another person. It does injury to justice and charity. Rape deeply wounds the respect, freedom, and physical and moral integrity to which every person has a right. It causes grave damage that can mark the victim for life. It is always an intrinsically evil act. Graver still is the rape of children committed by parents (incest) or those responsible for the education of the children entrusted to them.

 

[RhinoRush]

You understand they published that in 1992 after they'd already been caught with their hands in the cookie jar, right? It's just PR.

 

[sleepwalk]

Whoa! There's just no defending an institution that is supposed to be THE moral authority, asks for your complete trust with what you hold dearest, and all the while is actively covering up the deepest betrayal I can think of. The Pope, and the church should have hunted down the pedo priests with all the might they could muster. Not covered their tracks, and therefore creating more victims. That's unforgivable shit, my dude.

Probably a big part of electing John Cardinal Ratzinger to become Pope Benedict XVI, a relentless pursuer of these cases, who brought charge to all accused of abuse and enablement/concealment.

 

[Bald1]

Probably a big part of electing John Cardinal Ratzinger to become Pope Benedict XVI, a relentless pursuer of these cases, who brought charge to all accused of abuse and enablement/concealment.

Interesting. I wasn't aware of his efforts, but after digging into it am happy to hear of it. Thanks for the "heads up".

 

[Devout Pessimist]

You understand they published that in 1992 after they'd already been caught with their hands in the cookie jar, right? It's just PR.

The Catholic Church has a long history of corruption followed by reform. I expect that pattern will be the norm well into the future.

The Church's views on acceptable sexual behavior has been explicit well before 1992. The church has made it quite clear since it's beginning days that sex is only appropriate between a married man and woman.

 

[RhinoRush]

The Catholic Church has a long history of corruption followed by reform. I expect that pattern will be the norm well into the future.

What's stopping you from just going to a non denominational church? With everything you admit about the Catholics, why not just worship somewhere else?

What is it about Catholicism that is so important to you? There are plenty of other branches of Christianity that don't have all the baggage the Catholics have.