Transgender politics: conversion therapy bans

[blackhat]

gender is a spectrum which can change

sexuality is a spectrum which can change

conversion therapy just shifts you to another point in the spectrum.

therefore its great!!

 

[ripskater]

gender is a spectrum which can change

sexuality is a spectrum which can change

conversion therapy just shifts you to another point in the spectrum.

therefore its great!!

For some odd reason the left says that you can only convert to being abnormal. Conversion is only one way for them.

 

[IDL]

For some odd reason the left says that you can only convert to being abnormal. Conversion is only one way for them.

It's like they are looking for new recruits. Sign up for the LGBT progressive draft kids, become gender fluid today!

 

[sangreporsangre]

Many teenager can be easy malleable, they come from divorced families or absent parents or they feel inadeguated because are or think to be too fat or too short or ugly , their models are particolary stupid : superheroes, mutants, monster, childish tv shows that teach them that everything is possible and the reality itself is something that can be negate.
so they are very vulnerable and became an easy prey

Agreed, as some of those conversations clearly show. From asking questions of strangers on the net to hormone treatment within 90 days.

 

[sangreporsangre]

Honestly, I have not read the latest DSM and relevant research. But, I will say that although I agree that thinking on this issue will change with time, as things always do, I think going with the most up to date research and thinking on the subject is the best decision parents can make. The problem is when people wear the cloak of science but really are pushing snakeoil and repackaged dogma.

I feel that "the most up to date research and thinking" can be dangerous when dealing with such a highly politicized issue like this. I'll repeat it again: children are being permanently sterilized based on extremely questionable science. I can't imagine any other scenario where the type of therapy that would lead to this would not only be accepted, but is championed as and in some jurisdictions legally mandated to be the only therapy available. I feel that the trans activist movement is more akin to a religion than anything else....and I'm disturbed at the amount of influence it seems to currently have. Snakeoil would be an understatement.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Quickly, because the voting and drinking ages are arbitrary and are not based on developmental psychology or neuroscience.

I very much doubt the neuroscience in support of the trans argument. Neuroscience is overrated, which is strange because its biggest flaw is something people tend to be aware of in other contexts; the small sample sizes. Its expensive to get an MRI done and its also harder to convince people to undergo one than it is to get them to answer a survey so the samples are usually small which makes them more vulnerable to outliers and false positives. This also makes them more vulnerable to researcher's biases, the most common of which is the incentive to produce positive results and demonstrate statistically significant findings.

And as far as developmental psychology goes I'm also skeptical there. The research process via peer review is great but not perfect and immune to biases.The APA has a history of endorsing the leftist position on the subject of LGBT on the grounds of poor evidence.

 

[dontsnitch]

Further, how is "female brain" operationally defined?

Using a physical trait to define a female or male is already begging the question to begin with. You might as well use your ring finger to index finger ratio to determine if you are male or female, but we all understand that that's not how sex is defined.

And if you wanted to start defining male and females by their brain size, then you should have no problem telling many so-called trans people that they're incorrectly identifying as the wrong gender when their brain matches their biological sex.

 

[Deleted member 159002]

Using a physical trait to define a female or male is already begging the question to begin with. You might as well use your ring finger to index finger ratio to determine if you are male or female, but we all understand that that's not how sex is defined.

And if you wanted to start defining male and females by their brain size, then you should have no problem telling many so-called trans people that they're incorrectly identifying as the wrong gender when their brain matches their biological sex.

Or height.

 

[Deleted member 159002]

I very much doubt the neuroscience in support of the trans argument. Neuroscience is overrated, which is strange because its biggest flaw is something people tend to be aware of in other contexts; the small sample sizes. Its expensive to get an MRI done and its also harder to convince people to undergo one than it is to get them to answer a survey so the samples are usually small which makes them more vulnerable to outliers and false positives. This also makes them more vulnerable to researcher's biases, the most common of which is the incentive to produce positive results and demonstrate statistically significant findings.

And as far as developmental psychology goes I'm also skeptical there. The research process via peer review is great but not perfect and immune to biases.The APA has a history of endorsing the leftist position on the subject of LGBT on the grounds of poor evidence.

Testing the 'hormone exposure during prenatal development causes some people to be born the wrong sex' theory would require exposing some fetuses to certain hormones and not exposing others, and then ensuring that once born, the test subjects were treated the same from childhood to adulthood (or at the very least sexual maturity). Aside from such an experiment being unethical, it would be impossible. The research transgender normalization advocates rely on are not true experiments.

But of course, the idea that a person could even be the "wrong sex" is normative, not empirical.

 

[sangreporsangre]

Why are so many children all of a sudden coming to the conclusion that they are "trapped in the wrong body"? Could what they learn in school have something to do with it? I don't know what it's like around the world, but I know that here in Ontario there has been a big push to include gender theory dogma as part of sex ed programs. My kids have both told me about discussions about gender identity and expression (which, the teachers stress, has nothing to do with biological sex) that they have in the classroom. They also tell me that there is a growing amount of children in their schools who identify as trans or non-binary or god knows what else. My son says there's about 15 trans kids in his high school and my daughter says there's 5 or 6 in her junior high - including a 10 year old "trans boy" which of course is a little girl. I'm thankful that my kids were at least a little bit older when this stuff started getting rolled out.

Outside of the curriculum, what other ways are teachers being advised to push trans activist orthodoxy on children? We can always look at teacher guides. Here's one from the Ottawa school board:

http://www.ocdsb.ca/ab-ocdsb/InclusiveSafeandCaring/ISC Docs/Gender Identity and Gender Expression.pdf

School staff must ensure students can exercise their right to participate in gender-segregated sports, inter-scholastic athletics, and Health and Physical Education class activities in accordance with each student’s gender identity. Coaches will work with and be supported by school staff to address each student’s accommodation needs and ensure safety.

Math: Have a class discussion on famous mathematicians of the past and present. Discuss the dominance of men in the field and possible reasons for that. Have students challenge the long-held notion that girls aren’t good at math and challenge this belief. Introduce non-binary examples of gender into the language of word problems

Technological Studies: Challenge gender stereotyping in tech classes (e.g. only males are auto mechanics; only females do fashion design), and discuss expectations about these stereotypes to broaden student experience and promote gender diversity

Can you imagine that in our day we took classes on math, science, French etc without viewing it all through the lens of gender theory? Barbaric. Anyway it also recommends usage of the "the Genderbread Person" as a tool to teach kids gender theory:

Meanwhile in Alberta, teachers in the province were given a toolkit to help them with those vital LGBTQ discussions that students in grade 7-12 just wouldn't be able to function in society without.

One activity, titled "Drag 101" for cosmetology and drama students, suggests inviting local drag queens to teach makeup techniques and organizing a drag performance for the school.



The toolkit advises teachers to use gender-neutral language. For instance, rather than relying on the traditional terms "boys" and "girls," the guide suggests using alternative terms like friends, folks or "comrades."



Terms such as "caretaker," "guardian" and "responsible adults" can replace "mom" and "dad."

A purple unicorn is used in the guidebook to describe "a more authentic way of understanding gender."



A picture of a purple, cartoon "gender unicorn" is shown under the heading: "Where do you fall on these spectrums?" It lays out a range of options for gender identity and expression, as well as sex assigned at birth, and physical and emotional attraction.

Hmm so this is all a "toolkit" to give to teachers, is it a required lesson plan? In other words, do teachers have to teach this stuff to their students?

Asked whether use of the toolkit is optional, Berg responded that "it is a requirement from the School Act that schools and teachers work to create welcoming, caring, safe, inclusive learning environments for all students."



But she added: "As far as how teachers are going to use this particular document, it's one tool in their toolkit they can choose. It is absolutely optional if they want to use this."



Ng noted the document contains a warning that suggests optional usage may be subject to interpretation. "Canadian courts have found that schools that fail to address homophobia and heterosexism can be in serious breach of their professional responsibilities and considered to be engaging in educational malpractice," the section reads.



"I think that when teachers read that they see this resource as being not so optional," Ng said.



Education ministry chief of staff Jeremy Nolais said the PRISM toolkit is one of the resources produced from a $191,000 grant to help school authorities implement amendments to the School Act.



"Neither Alberta Education nor the minister require school authorities to refer to the PRISM toolkit or any other external resources," Nolais said.



But school authorities are legally responsible to provide caring and safe learning environments for all students, including LGBTQ pupils, he added.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...-a-teaching-tool-in-alberta-schools-1.3830417

Clear as mud. Ok so what do you guys think? Is this is a good use of school time and resources? Could this kind of stuff being pushed in schools play a role in the exponential growth of the number of "trans" kids in the last few years? Is someone who is opposed to this stuff a heterosexist bigot?

 

[ripskater]

15 trans kids in his high school and my daughter says there's 5 or 6 in her junior high - including a 10 year old "trans boy" which of course is a little girl.

Just a thought.

Of the biologic boys, how many of them will end up hooked on drugs and alcohol and on the streets with std's including HIV? How many of them will die way too young because they didn't get the right help? Instead they get encouraged and pushed into something that's destructive to themselves.

And how many trans kids would they have if they weren't pushing it so much? Probably none.

 

[sangreporsangre]

Just a thought.

Of the biologic boys, how many of them will end up hooked on drugs and alcohol and on the streets with std's including HIV? How many of them will die way too young because they didn't get the right help? Instead they get encouraged and pushed into something that's destructive to themselves.

And how many trans kids would they have if they weren't pushing it so much? Probably none.

I'm not sure how many are actually gonna end up with HIV or a drug addiction, Rip. But what I am reasonably sure of is this: thanks to "gender affirmative" therapy, pretty much all of them are on a conveyor belt which ends up with sex reassignment surgery. Insist that they are sure that they're born in the wrong body > socially transition as the opposite sex (or "non-binary") > puberty blockers > cross-sex hormones > surgery. And, just speculation on my part, but I feel that it's likely that a high percentage will end up exactly like you said: self-medicating with drugs and dying a premature death.

My question is, why? Where is the science to show that this is the right way to treat kids who feel uncomfortable with their bodies or don't conform to gender norms? Why were Dr Zucker and his clinic and his methods torn down - based on distortions, exaggerations, outright fabrications but no goddamn science? Do any modern liberals have a problem with this, or is this just a sign of progress and deplorables like you and me "just don't get it"?

 

[Renard]

Dem sliders. I sexually identify as a 10% woman-ness and 90% man-ness two-spirit, my gender expression is a 20% masculine and 80% feminine femme, my biological sex is a 40% female-ness and 60% male-ness intersex. I'm sexually attracted to 10% SJW mutants and 23% to females who identify as men and have transitioned to MtF female. I'm romantically attracted to 37% genderquestioning attack helicopters and 81% suppressed feminine assault rifles.

 

[AviatorShades]

Parents who chemically or surgically "transition" the gender of their prepubescent child should be locked up in a very small cage for a very long time.

That's about the only opinion I have on this issue. Whether you have trendy pro-LGBT parents or stubbornly religious 'conversion therapy' parents, that's all stuff that you could arguably get over later in life. We can't ban mere wackiness or dumb summer camps.

When someone puts their underage child on hormones that will basically render them chemically disabled for the rest of their life, the parents should be charged with a felony.

 

[AviatorShades]

This is classic Marxism, guys. Karl was an adamant opponent of transgender conversion therapy, thinking it only served the interests of the bourgeois.

Marx and Engels (and later Stalin) disliked homosexuality but the Marxist movement and Bolsheviks /revolutions themselves -- and their precursors in the French revolution -- sweepingly abolished sexual laws across Europe including those criminalizing homosexuality, bestiality and pedophilia/pederasty to demoralize traditional society.

I think we can sum the pure socialist policy on sexual orientation as: The end justifies the means. Homosexuality is just a tool, a dirty bomb.

Your sarcasm may apply to the top-down authorities within Marxism who were aware of homosexuality's detrimental social effects, but it does not apply to Marxist revolutionary strategies at large. Breaking down gender/sexual mores is has the same basic function within Marxism as destroying ethnic identity; stripping away all forms of human identity until all attention is concentrated on economic divisions. What Marx did acknowledge is that so long as any social constructs are given more attention than than wealth, "class warfare" cannot be effectively waged.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeois_nationalism

 

[dontsnitch]

I'm not sure how many are actually gonna end up with HIV or a drug addiction, Rip. But what I am reasonably sure of is this: thanks to "gender affirmative" therapy, pretty much all of them are on a conveyor belt which ends up with sex reassignment surgery. Insist that they are sure that they're born in the wrong body > socially transition as the opposite sex (or "non-binary") > puberty blockers > cross-sex hormones > surgery. And, just speculation on my part, but I feel that it's likely that a high percentage will end up exactly like you said: self-medicating with drugs and dying a premature death.

My question is, why? Where is the science to show that this is the right way to treat kids who feel uncomfortable with their bodies or don't conform to gender norms? Why were Dr Zucker and his clinic and his methods torn down - based on distortions, exaggerations, outright fabrications but no goddamn science? Do any modern liberals have a problem with this, or is this just a sign of progress and deplorables like you and me "just don't get it"?

Their entire platform seems to be nothing more than claiming moral superiority, where they are good because they accept progressive views on trans people, and you are evil because you do not. The problem is that even this claim falls apart under scrutiny, because I fail to see any compassion associated with blind acceptance when the end-goal is for people to mutilate their genitals.

 

[ReAnimator Reagan]

I'd like to see what some of you guys see regarding this legal trend happening here in North America, not sure if anything similar is taking place in Europe or anywhere else around the world. So in the US, Democrat lawmakers are trying to get a nationwide ban on what is known as "conversion therapy" for LGBTQ youth under the age of 18.

But you can dress up your boy as a little girl and probably get it hormones and shit under 18, right?

 

[sangreporsangre]

But you can dress up your boy as a little girl and probably get it hormones and shit under 18, right?

Yes.....keep reading. It's really disturbing.

 

[sangreporsangre]

Their entire platform seems to be nothing more than claiming moral superiority, where they are good because they accept progressive views on trans people, and you are evil because you do not. The problem is that even this claim falls apart under scrutiny, because I fail to see any compassion associated with blind acceptance when the end-goal is for people to mutilate their genitals.

Right and the whole thing is confusing to me. Those on the left of the political spectrum always warn us about how dangerous it is to mix religion and politics. I definitely agree with them. But how the hell is this any different? I'm sure someone will quibble with this definition because there's no specific "belief in a higher power" but gender theory seems to me to be exactly like a religion - or maybe cult is a better word. And yet its influence is growing, especially in Canada.

Where is the pushback from rational liberals? There's a lot of rhetoric about science in politics lately and there was just the big March for Science. Climate change denial is seen as a terrible thing that leads to policies that are destructive to the environment. And yet these same liberals advocate for a cult-like movement which harms another precious resource: our children. All based on science which is questionable at best. Where are the rational liberals? Are we too far gone as a society or is there a chance to turn it around?

 

[dontsnitch]

Right and the whole thing is confusing to me. Those on the left of the political spectrum always warn us about how dangerous it is to mix religion and politics. I definitely agree with them. But how the hell is this any different? I'm sure someone will quibble with this definition because there's no specific "belief in a higher power" but gender theory seems to me to be exactly like a religion - or maybe cult is a better word. And yet its influence is growing, especially in Canada.

Where is the pushback from rational liberals? There's a lot of rhetoric about science in politics lately and there was just the big March for Science. Climate change denial is seen as a terrible thing that leads to policies that are destructive to the environment. And yet these same liberals advocate for a cult-like movement which harms another precious resource: our children. All based on science which is questionable at best. Where are the rational liberals? Are we too far gone as a society or is there a chance to turn it around?

It's difficult to say what the future holds, it seems that a violent pendulum swing is just as likely as society sinking into illiberalism.

From what I've gathered on this forum, those who are silent purport to believe that the risks of this ideology are benign and they undermine it by stating that this is just a couple of college students and is only a fringe belief.