Some white belts at Mundials are incredible sandbaggers

[BJJ Beginner]

Really? You honestly think that someone who has trained no gi for 6 years vs a guy who just started gi or no-gi BJJ is gonna be able to match the 6+ years guys hip movement and overall fluidness on the ground? Really?

Of course not; that's my point. But as long as so many people continue to insist that no-gi isn't BJJ and that training with the gi is absolutely necessary both to excel in jiu jitsu and to be promoted, situations like that are going to come up. And while I agree that someone with 6 years of no-gi shouldn't be competing against white belts, you can't tell him that he's a white belt because he hasn't trained in the gi and then expect him not to compete at that level.

There are only two solutions to this issue: either get rid of the whole "gi is the only thing that matters" attitude that is so pervasive to the art, or organize tournaments based on grappling experience rather than rank.

 

[Mike MacDonald]

Sandbagging sucks but most of the time its the instuctors fault.

 

[Higus]

Sandbagging sucks but most of the time its the instuctors fault.

Seriously. If you are a coach and you hear that your guys are sandbagging like this, you should seriously let them know that they are doing a disservice to themselves, their competition, and their school. To some people, winning will always be more important than competing fairly.

 

[stu3ufc**]

I would be pissed if I traveled a long way and payed a bunch of money only to get beat by a guy who has no legitimate reason to be competing in my skill division in the first round.

QFT..........when mundial entrance fee is like $100 +

 

[Simco]

If you fly to a tournament you had better be at a place in your training where you stand a chance of winning your division.
A person who spends a lot of money and knows they're only average or slightly better for their group is just an idiot.

 

[jasond]

The fact is that half the competitors will lose in the first round anyways. Is it that much more frustrating to lose by a flying triangle to the division winner in the first round then losing 5-2 to someone else?

Losing to someone who's in your ball park skill-wise is nothing to get upset about. We're talking about losing unfairly to a guy who should legitimately be competing at least 1 division above you, but is sandbagging.

By your logic, half the competitors at the pan-ams and worlds would be outraged. Was Kron Gracie complaining about sandbagging when he lost in the first round of the black belt division at the mundials last year?

You misunderstood what I was trying to say. Kron didn't have any right to complain when he lost last year, because he was competing against other black belts. I'm not talking about losing to guys who are legitimately the same rank as you. I'm talking about if a white belt were to lose to a guy who should be competing as a blue or higher.

 

[FirstScratch]

Seriously. If you are a coach and you hear that your guys are sandbagging like this, you should seriously let them know that they are doing a disservice to themselves, their competition, and their school. To some people, winning will always be more important than competing fairly.

Personally I feel it's the competition between instructors/schools that's largely to blame for this stuff.

 

[georgejjr]

This is one reason why having white belt Mundials is utterly ridiculous in the first place.

I'd second that. In fact, why have belt divisions in that kind of tournament in the first place? It's like having experience divisions in Olympic wrestling or judo - can you imagine the TV interview of the Olympic gold medal winner in the 'less than two years of wrestling' freestyle division :icon_twis

At a certain level of tournament its just to determine who's the best, and belts don't come into it. Its why there's no complaints about sandbagging in the Olympics ... if you're there, you're one of the best and expecting to compete against the best. Mundials is supposed to be a tournament at the level of the Olympics or world championships, so why are there divisions for people who aren't competitive at that level?

Local and regional tournaments have belt levels to encourage competition and to give beginners a chance to learn, just like there are experience levels in local/regional hockey, football, baseball etc. Why are they there in world championships?

 

[jasond]

Sandbagging sucks but most of the time its the instuctors fault.

Agreed.

And the reason why is:

Personally I feel it's the competition between instructors/schools that's largely to blame for this stuff.

 

[Aethyr]

I'd second that. In fact, why have belt divisions in that kind of tournament in the first place? It's like having experience divisions in Olympic wrestling or judo - can you imagine the TV interview of the Olympic gold medal winner in the 'less than two years of wrestling' freestyle division :icon_twis

At a certain level of tournament its just to determine who's the best, and belts don't come into it. Its why there's no complaints about sandbagging in the Olympics ... if you're there, you're one of the best and expecting to compete against the best. Mundials is supposed to be a tournament at the level of the Olympics or world championships, so why are there divisions for people who aren't competitive at that level?

Local and regional tournaments have belt levels to encourage competition and to give beginners a chance to learn, just like there are experience levels in local/regional hockey, football, baseball etc. Why are they there in world championships?

$$$

 

[gannas]

Of course not; that's my point. But as long as so many people continue to insist that no-gi isn't BJJ and that training with the gi is absolutely necessary both to excel in jiu jitsu and to be promoted, situations like that are going to come up. And while I agree that someone with 6 years of no-gi shouldn't be competing against white belts, you can't tell him that he's a white belt because he hasn't trained in the gi and then expect him not to compete at that level.

There are only two solutions to this issue: either get rid of the whole "gi is the only thing that matters" attitude that is so pervasive to the art, or organize tournaments based on grappling experience rather than rank.

Most tournaments I've seen are grouped by experienced like 0-9 month white belt 9+any wrestling or Judo background they stuck you with blues. (maybe the big ones arent yet) The person entering the tournament has to be honest with themselves and the organizers. If they have 6 years experience at the very least they should enter the blue belt division maybe even purple. Really whats the point of them entering the white belt division when they have that much experience other than to sandbag.

You cant get rid of the gi because that is what Brazlian Jiu Jitsu is, it's a major part of the art. Its not submission no gi wrestling. Collar chokes, places to grip when passing, etc etc are all based on wearing a gi. Thats like saying lets get rid of elbows and kicks from Muy Thai boxing.

 

[Jimmy Cerra]

And experience isn't everything. I was promoted a purple belt after about 2 years. Does that mean I shouldn't have been competing in advanced back then? Or that I shouldn't have been competing with other purples since most take twice as long?

 

[Goat Meal]

Sorry, I'm just not sure I understand the logic here. Doesn't this just encourage guys to go "oh well, I'm just a two stripe white belt, I should compete in beginner" when they are really closer to three stripes or even blue? I understand he is "punishing" them in some way (assuming belts rather than ability matters to them) in an effort to instill certain values, but I just don't see how it will result in what he is looking for... if that is indeed what he is looking for.

It will result in what he is looking for because next time that person will have to compete at a higher level (and placing) before getting a stripe.

 

[jackandcoke]

I'd second that. In fact, why have belt divisions in that kind of tournament in the first place? It's like having experience divisions in Olympic wrestling or judo - can you imagine the TV interview of the Olympic gold medal winner in the 'less than two years of wrestling' freestyle division :icon_twis

At a certain level of tournament its just to determine who's the best, and belts don't come into it. Its why there's no complaints about sandbagging in the Olympics ... if you're there, you're one of the best and expecting to compete against the best. Mundials is supposed to be a tournament at the level of the Olympics or world championships, so why are there divisions for people who aren't competitive at that level?

Local and regional tournaments have belt levels to encourage competition and to give beginners a chance to learn, just like there are experience levels in local/regional hockey, football, baseball etc. Why are they there in world championships?

true story

 

[elcliffo]

Funny.. this was my division. I won my first match by ezekiel choke from mount and lost my second one by 2 points. I am a 14month whitebelt, going to test for blue next month, and I can attest that there were some obvious sandbaggers in the division. There was another guy I saw in the division who competed at the Pan Ams last year in the weight class below and got 3rd and he is the Pan Ams again as a whitebelt. But in the grand scheme of things I don't really care because I was not directly affected by it this year, but if I was smashed by some awesome grappler I would probably whine more

 

[BJJ Beginner]

Most tournaments I've seen are grouped by experienced like 0-9 month white belt 9+any wrestling or Judo background they stuck you with blues. (maybe the big ones arent yet) The person entering the tournament has to be honest with themselves and the organizers. If they have 6 years experience at the very least they should enter the blue belt division maybe even purple. Really whats the point of them entering the white belt division when they have that much experience other than to sandbag.

You cant get rid of the gi because that is what Brazlian Jiu Jitsu is, it's a major part of the art. Its not submission no gi wrestling. Collar chokes, places to grip when passing, etc etc are all based on wearing a gi. Thats like saying lets get rid of elbows and kicks from Muy Thai boxing.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that someone with significant no-gi experience is a white belt because he doesn't train with a gi and then tell him to compete against purple belts. You can't say that no-gi isn't really BJJ and then expect someone with zero BJJ experience (by your standards) to enter the advanced division. You can't ignore the vast similarities and carryover between gi and no-gi training when it comes to defining what is and isn't jiu jitsu and then complain about them when it comes to the organization of a jiu jitsu tournament.

Either no-gi is BJJ, or it isn't. Decide which and act accordingly. But don't argue one way and then the other depending on how it suits you at the moment.

 

[platfox]

Doesn't surprise me at all. It seems that I am the only one on this forum that realizes sandbagging is alive and real. Most people will however say your a pussy and they will tell you to shut the fuck up and train. These people that say this are the same people that are sandbagging. Sandbaggers are fucking cowards and if I was in charge of mundials I would strip them of there medals and they would be blackballed from ever competing again. The problem is there is no structure to get rid of sandbaggers and there is no way to get rid of sandbaggers. Some assholes on this forum are going to come on this thread and say mma and no-gi is different than gi. And they will say that wrestling for 6 years and hitting a flying triangle 5 years ago in no-gi mma is different. They will bring up Diego sanchez and say these guys never trained with a gi so they did right competing as whitebelts. ( don't laugh someone will probably argue this with you)

Just think I am going to pay for a plane ticket to go to mundials, spend my time to compete and go up against one of these sandbagging cocksuckers. That is why I am done for competition for now. I lost to a sandbagger at the Naga and will never compete at that tournament again.

I know you get attacked alot and are known as the sandbag complainer on this forum but you're right to hate sandbaggers. Its aweful and disgusting how guys could rob other competitors of a fair match. I don't even know how people can get satisfaction out of winning in this manner. There should definitely be repercussions for sandbaggers who get caught. Even if you don't catch all of them, having the rules in place will at least deter some people from trying cheat.

 

[Adrenaline87]

SANDBAGGERS BEWARE
NAGA works diligently to prevent "sandbagging", or the practice of fighting down skill levels to ensure one takes home an award. NAGA has been working with RANKED to track all fighters and ranked grappling events to produce true "national standings." A by-product of these standings is our knowledge of who has competed and at which level. Front door personnel will use RANKED data to determine whether or not individuals who have fought in past events belong in a higher skill level (i.e. placed 1st at a prior NAGA event).

From the NAGA website

North American Grappling Association - NAGA grappling tournaments

 

[uttsada]

I am competing in my first tournament which is NAGA next month. This makes me even more nervous.

 

[whipyourasstyle]

All divisions below black belt/ advanced/ open skill level, are competitions not for the students but among professors to determine which one holds his students back the most.

It is sort of a pride thing "my purple belt subbed your brown belt" or "my three stripe white belts beat two of your blue belts and lost on points to your purple belt"