International Hamas launches surprise attack on Israel; Israel has declared a state of war. Vol. III

[Zazen]

The absurd claim with zero proof is that casualty statistics from the Hamas Health Ministry should be taken at face value and without skepticism when we know for a fact the following.;

1) Hamas trains and has trained children for combat roles for over a decade.

2) The Gaza health authorities do not differentiate between civilian and militant casualties. Nor do they give any information on who actually is at fault whether it's Israeli, Hamas, or some other Jihadi group.

3) Hamas intentionally places children and civilians around their military installations.

4) It's in their interest to inflate and distort these figures.

5) There is no outside oversight from for Gaza. But there is for Israel.

This is the premise you refuse to acknowledge and engage with. Never once did I deny children had been killed or will be killed. Only that I do not trust Hamas figures to the letter.

Well when you put things like that in quotations and then your next argument is that they’re Hamas soldiers it doesn’t really look good. Now that post is a little more nuanced and you should have stated with that instead. Just watch some videos of journalists on the ground instead of only headlines . It helps give perspective to just how ugly this whole thing is

 

[Rational Poster]

Well when you put things like that in quotations and then your next argument is that they’re Hamas soldiers it doesn’t really look good. Now that post is a little more nuanced and you should have stated with that instead. Just watch some videos of journalists on the ground instead of only headlines . It helps give perspective to just how ugly this whole thing is

Believe me "child" I am well aware of the situation. Much more aware than you appear to be.

I repeatedly explained it to you in similar detail but you still got hung up on useless pedantry.

 

[Strychnine]

How many are going to be Martyrs anyway?

I think theres a huge issue here thats very difficult to address because nobody really has the answer. But how many Palestinians actually support Hamas and its mission to destroy Israel?

Im not actually directing the question at you personally for what you said, Im just bringing it up.

When hamas is driving dead bodies around while citizens just run up and cheer or spit on the bodies, it becomes difficult to actually parse how much of Palestine truly wants peace. I know these incidents arent an indication that 100% of the population wants Israels annihilation, but its certainly enough to show that that theres a large number that are in full support of Hamas and its actions.

I'm saddened for the ones who don't support Hamas but can't say anything about it or they'll be shot.

 

[William Munny]

The absurd claim with zero proof is that casualty statistics from the Hamas Health Ministry should be taken at face value and without skepticism when we know for a fact the following.;

1) Hamas trains and has trained children for combat roles for over a decade.

2) The Gaza health authorities do not differentiate between civilian and militant casualties. Nor do they give any information on who actually is at fault whether it's Israeli, Hamas, or some other Jihadi group.

3) Hamas intentionally places children and civilians around their military installations.

4) It's in their interest to inflate and distort these figures.

5) There is no outside oversight for Gaza. But there is for Israel.

This is the premise you refuse to acknowledge and engage with. Never once did I deny children had been killed or will be killed. Only that I do not trust Hamas figures to the letter.

all of this will fall on deaf ears unfortunately. different standards of morality are imposed on one side.

 

[Motivated BJ Penn]

Clearly my point wasn't the specific population of the time period, but that most of that population were Arab migrants from the area, many thousands from Egypt in particular. Many modern Palestinians still carry Egyptian family names even.

This has been debunked
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)

According to a Jewish Agency survey, 77% of Palestinian population growth in Palestine between 1914 and 1938, during which the Palestinian population doubled, was due to natural increase, while 23% was due to immigration. Arab immigration was primarily from Lebanon, Syria, Transjordan, and Egypt (all countries that bordered Palestine).[88]

The overall assessment of several British reports was that the increase in the Arab population was primarily due to natural increase.[89][90] These included the Hope Simpson Enquiry (1930),[91] the Passfield White Paper (1930),[92] the Peel Commission report (1937),[93] and the Survey of Palestine (1945).[94]

 

[Hog-train]

First of all :
I don't know what antiquated dictionary you're using -
Ashkenazic Jews or Ashkenazim[a], are a Jewish diaspora population that formed in the Holy Roman Empire around the end of the first millennium CE.[
"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews

Lmao - dude Europe is part of the Holy Roman Empire. Large swaths of France, Germany all the way to Italy were all the Holy Roman Empire. They've literally done DNA tests on Ashkenazi people and it showed they've been in Europe for a millennia.

We're side tracking anyway here, you claimed that Palestinians had a greater historic right which you ever elaborated on beyond them being there more recently.

Now there is an Israeli country with an Israeli people for quite a few generations - they are now here more recently. Are they now "native" again?

I don't follow your logic.

My argument is pretty simple. The majority of Jews that came to immigrate during the formation of Israel had far greater ties to Europe than Palestine.

Conversely, the Palestinians that are still there to modern day have been in the area for millennia.

So I don't think some vague 2,000 Plus year old claim supersedes the Palestinians that have always been there the entire time.

But you also you accept that Jews of middle eastern descent have a right to the land because they are "native"? They are now a majority of Israel.

Yes Semitic Jews that have always been there have just a right to that land as the Palestinians. They're essentially the same people with different faiths.

 

[The XL]

White Jews never had a claim to Palestine and it's been nothing but problems since they were inserted in the Middle East.

 

[Rational Poster]

This has been debunked
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)

According to a Jewish Agency survey, 77% of Palestinian population growth in Palestine between 1914 and 1938, during which the Palestinian population doubled, was due to natural increase, while 23% was due to immigration. Arab immigration was primarily from Lebanon, Syria, Transjordan, and Egypt (all countries that bordered Palestine).[88]

The overall assessment of several British reports was that the increase in the Arab population was primarily due to natural increase.[89][90] These included the Hope Simpson Enquiry (1930),[91] the Passfield White Paper (1930),[92] the Peel Commission report (1937),[93] and the Survey of Palestine (1945).[94]

??

23% are migrants just between 1914-1938 and that's debunked? Did I claim the growth was only from migration?

 

[7even]

 

[Samjj]

Yes Semitic Jews that have always been there have just a right to that land as the Palestinians. They're essentially the same people with different faiths.

So now that Israel has a majority of Mizrahi descent population, you believe that they have equal claim to the land from an ethnic standpoint?

 

[Motivated BJ Penn]

??

23% are migrants just between 1914-1938 and that's debunked? Did I claim the growth was only from migration?

Egyptian migrants had been entering the region since the early 1800s.

You said most of it was due to immigration trying to say it was the same thing as the jews coming from Europe, which is false.

Yeah there were some arab migrants, but the vast majority were indigenous to Palestine and have been living there for generations thus they have the rightful claim to all the land.

 

[Rational Poster]

You said most of it was due to immigration trying to say it was the same thing as the jews coming from Europe, which is false.

Yeah there were some arab migrants, but the vast majority were indigenous to Palestine and have been living there for generations thus they have the rightful claim to all the land.

Egyptian migrants had been entering the region in the thousands since the early 1800s. The natural growth was also natural growth of existing migrants that predated British suzerainty.

 

[Motivated BJ Penn]

Egyptian migrants had been entering the region in the thousands since the early 1800s. The natural growth was also natural growth of existing migrants that predated British suzerainty.

At the end of the 18th century, there was a bi-directional movement between Egypt and Palestine. Between 1829 and 1841, thousands of Egyptians arrived to Palestine as fugitives fleeing conscription or as forced laborers. Muhammad Ali invaded Palestine in October 1831 to ostensibly repatriate Egyptian fugitives who had fled conscription.[79][80][81] Muhammad Ali brought in Egyptian forced labourers, mostly from the Nile Delta, to settle in sakināt (settlements) along the coast. This set off bad blood with the indigeneous fellahin (peasants), who resented Muhammad Ali's plans and interference, prompting the Peasants' revolt in Palestine in 1834.[79][82][83] After the Egyptian defeat and retreat in 1841, many laborers and deserters stayed in Palestine.[80] Most of these settled and were quickly assimilated in the cities of Jaffa and Gaza, the Coastal plains and Wadi Ara.[80] Estimates of Egyptian migrants during this period generally place them at 15,000–30,000.[80] At the time, the sedentary population of Palestine fluctuated around 300,000–350,000.[80]

So the egyptian migrants were 5-10% of the total Palestine population, just a drop in the bucket.

 

[Hog-train]

So now that Israel has a majority of Mizrahi descent population, you believe that they have equal claim to the land from an ethnic standpoint?

No because Mizrahi is a very broad term that encompasses the entire Middle East, parts of Central Asia and Africa.

Why would people from Central Asia or some other Arab country have some kind of claim to Palestine which is only a tiny country within the ME?

No I give most "right" to a land to the people who've been living there for at least several generations.

Obviously that's a judgment call and matter of opinion.

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

At the end of the 18th century, there was a bi-directional movement between Egypt and Palestine. Between 1829 and 1841, thousands of Egyptians arrived to Palestine as fugitives fleeing conscription or as forced laborers. Muhammad Ali invaded Palestine in October 1831 to ostensibly repatriate Egyptian fugitives who had fled conscription.[79][80][81] Muhammad Ali brought in Egyptian forced labourers, mostly from the Nile Delta, to settle in sakināt (settlements) along the coast. This set off bad blood with the indigeneous fellahin (peasants), who resented Muhammad Ali's plans and interference, prompting the Peasants' revolt in Palestine in 1834.[79][82][83] After the Egyptian defeat and retreat in 1841, many laborers and deserters stayed in Palestine.[80] Most of these settled and were quickly assimilated in the cities of Jaffa and Gaza, the Coastal plains and Wadi Ara.[80] Estimates of Egyptian migrants during this period generally place them at 15,000–30,000.[80] At the time, the sedentary population of Palestine fluctuated around 300,000–350,000.[80]

So the egyptian migrants were 5-10% of the total Palestine population, just a drop in the bucket.

wow i never would have suspected something like that from the former heavyweight champ

 

[Rational Poster]

At the end of the 18th century, there was a bi-directional movement between Egypt and Palestine. Between 1829 and 1841, thousands of Egyptians arrived to Palestine as fugitives fleeing conscription or as forced laborers. Muhammad Ali invaded Palestine in October 1831 to ostensibly repatriate Egyptian fugitives who had fled conscription.[79][80][81] Muhammad Ali brought in Egyptian forced labourers, mostly from the Nile Delta, to settle in sakināt (settlements) along the coast. This set off bad blood with the indigeneous fellahin (peasants), who resented Muhammad Ali's plans and interference, prompting the Peasants' revolt in Palestine in 1834.[79][82][83] After the Egyptian defeat and retreat in 1841, many laborers and deserters stayed in Palestine.[80] Most of these settled and were quickly assimilated in the cities of Jaffa and Gaza, the Coastal plains and Wadi Ara.[80] Estimates of Egyptian migrants during this period generally place them at 15,000–30,000.[80] At the time, the sedentary population of Palestine fluctuated around 300,000–350,000.[80]

So the egyptian migrants were 5-10% of the total Palestine population, just a drop in the bucket.

10% of a population group is not a drop in the bucket, especially when you're compounding it over decades and combining it with new waves of migration, and the total size of the population is small to begin with.

 

[Rholk]

wow i never would have suspected something like that from the former heavyweight champ

Just goes to show you, these influencers are fake as fuck

 

[Samjj]

No because Mizrahi is a very broad term that encompasses the entire Middle East, parts of Central Asia and Africa.

Why would people from Central Asia or some other Arab country have some kind of claim to Palestine which is only a tiny country within the ME?

No I give most "right" to a land to the people who've been living there for at least several generations.

Obviously that's a judgment call and matter of opinion.

So let me continue this premise.. at what point does Israel, as a country become native? When is all Palestinian claim relinquished?

 

[Motivated BJ Penn]

10% of a population group is not a drop in the bucket, especially when you're compounding it over decades and combining it with new waves of migration, and the total size of the population is small to begin with.

It is if you want to claim the arabs in Palestine had as much claim to the land as Ashkenazi jews coming from Europe lol

 

[Rational Poster]

It is if you want to claim the arabs in Palestine had as much claim to the land as Ashkenazi jews coming from Europe lol

No, it's pretty clear I've been attempting to demonstrate both sides had similar levels of claim. Historical, de facto, and meritorious.