California dam RIP

[Cold Front]

Keep preaching about human needs when agriculture is 80% of water usage, and of the remaining 20% i wish to know how much is going to raising pastures in the desert.

You should know, Rod, that's a made-up statistic. I told you it was a made-up statistic the last time we argued about something similar.

The correct percentage is something like 40 percent.

 

[Rod1]

Yes, we would all live in a more environmentally-friendlier world without golf courses, Disneyland, professional sports, and other recreational activities which waste both energy and water.

We could all live in the salt mines, too.

With very few exceptions, most of us choose not to. And that includes most liberals.

Not really. The article I linked to earlier said that such desalination options were providing very little of the percentage of water that anyone is using. For the San Diego plant, just seven percent of the city's needs. They're too expensive.

1.- Right, because golf-clubs are such an important part of society, specially in the fucking desert. Maybe move to a more temperate climate.

2.- Why is city dweller entertainment more important than outdoor entertainment? that water irrigation at golf-courses is water that its taken from the enviroment, i live in a place where we are always asked to give water to our less "gifted" neighbours, i saw an entire riparian ecosystem go from a lush place with hunting and great places for picnics and outdoor activities turn into a desert because a neighbour city needed water and the water table was lowered which killed all deep roots trees.

3.- There are more than simple ways to ensure water is not wasted without the need to build massive dams. They are important and they certainly have a place in the future, but they are not a panacea, it requires sacrifice, thus sacrifice must be made by users too.

4.- They are not too expensive, specially if you are supplying a wealthy city, its too expensive for golf clubs maybe, but at 50cent per cubic meter thats 265 gallons of water that its already fit for human consumption and doesnt needs treatment. one hour minimum wage gets you 3710 gallons of reverse osmosis water, its not expensive.

 

[Rod1]

You should, Rod, that's a made-up statistic. I told you it was a made-up statistic the last time we argued about something similar.

The correct percentage is something like 40 percent.

Its not made up 80 of human usage is agriculture as per your article, your article just claims that water that its left to sustain the riparian ecosystem gets counted.

Do you want to destroy every single river, lake in California along with coastal marshes? because thats what you are claiming, fuck the outdoors and use all water available for human consumption, which again would be mostly gobbled by agriculture.

 

[Cold Front]

1.- Right, because golf-clubs are such an important part of society, specially in the fucking desert. Maybe move to a more temperate climate.

Tell it to Obama, who now lives in Palm Springs so he can enjoy year-round golfing. You know, our environmental president.

And if your standard is too high for Obama to live by, then maybe you liberals ought to resist your standard.

2.- Why is city dweller entertainment more important than outdoor entertainment?

It's not to me, but apparently the people or leaders in your area disagreed.

And please note that even maintaining river flows in order to sustain recreational purposes - like canoeing, rafting, fishing, etc. - uses water in the state of California. Nearly 10 percent according to the link I provided for you.

3.- There are more than simple ways to ensure water is not wasted without the need to build massive dams.

Yeah, you can keep population growth down to zero, which in the US means we don't allow immigrants into the country, since they are responsible for all of the recent population growth. Even more so in California.

 

[Rod1]

Tell it to Obama, who now lives in Palm Springs so he can enjoy year-round golfing. You know, our environmental president.

And if your standard is too high for Obama to live by, then maybe you liberals ought to resist your standard.



It's not to me, but apparently the people or leaders in your area disagreed.

And please note that even maintaining river flows in order to sustain recreational purposes - like canoeing, rafting, fishing, etc. - uses water in the state of California. Nearly 10 percent according to the link I provided for you.



Yeah, you can keep population growth down to zero, which in the US means we don't allow immigrants into the country, since they are responsible for all of the recent population growth. Even more so in California.

1.- Just like Al Gore moves in a private jet, of course the elite have no problem with fucking out the enviroment, how is that news.

2.- Your quote is pointing out that all water not taken from the enviroment counts as "used" so your proposal to create dams wont increase the water available it would simply shift enviromental runoff to human consumption, of which 80% is agriculture.

If you are nitpicking then ok "80% of human consumption of water goes to Agriculture" is that better?

3.- Because humans cant somehow possibly adapt to a desert enviroment and manage water more carefully?

I think the free market would work best, just raise the cost of water dramatically and people will start fixing their bad habits themselves.

 

[Cold Front]

Its not made up 80 of human usage is agriculture as per your article, your article just claims that water that its left to sustain the riparian ecosystem gets counted.

It's made-up.

Rivers are flowing in some areas of the state like they have never flowed before. That's not natural. That's man deciding to keep rivers flowing because he likes to flowing rivers to raft in or he likes to catch salmon ever year or he has some other aesthetic concern that nature doesn't care about.

The central valley of California was a marshland before the dams got control of all that water and sent it along controlled corridors we call rivers. No one is trying to get back to that state of nature, not even the dopey environmentalists.

So the rivers you see in the state are not natural. They exist only because of man's interference.

 

[Rod1]

It's made-up.

Rivers are flowing in some areas of the state like they have never flowed before. That's not natural. That's man deciding to keep rivers flowing because he likes to flowing rivers to raft in or he likes to catch salmon ever year or he has some other aesthetic concern that nature doesn't care about.

The central valley of California was a marshland before the dams got control of all that water and sent it along controlled corridors we call rivers. No one is trying to get back to that state of nature, not even the dopey environmentalists.

So the rivers you see in the state are not natural. They exist only because of mans interference.

Rivers do flow naturally, just in a lesser state that they did before when they carried more water.

 

[Cold Front]

1.- Just like Al Gore moves in a private jet, of course the elite have no problem with fucking out the enviroment, how is that news.

It's not news to me. But such hypocrisy shows why your standard will never be met. Because even the people who agree with you can't come close to meeting it.

2.- Your quote is pointing out that all water not taken from the enviroment counts as "used" so your proposal to create dams wont increase the water available it would simply shift enviromental runoff to human consumption, of which 80% is agriculture.

Modern environmentalism is about the control of nature. It just chooses to control it in different ways from traditional practices and then pretends, absurdly, that it's not really controlling nature.

The environmentalist practices of the state are not a return to some state of nature. They are rerouting the water in the state to their own priorities. In a few cases, I might even agree that those priorities are well worth it. I like to see flowing rivers, too. But they are still using water for man-made uses.

3.- Because humans cant somehow possibly adapt to a desert enviroment and manage water more carefully?

But Palm Springs was developed decades ago, before the modern environmental movement.

 

[Exi]

I would say selfishness when applied properly is a good thing.

For example I think Americans need to be take an attitude of group selfishness....we all need to put what's best for America above every problem the world has. We need to treat America as our "self" and then be "selfish" with our policies.

We have veterans on the streets and decaying infrastructure everywhere but somehow have the money for pet projects

I agree, selfishness is a virtue when placed in the context of humans being a highly social animal. So we often strive towards a sustainable balance, which in turn can be considered selfish. I don't see why people put these terms as polar opposites. Kind of a 'ying and yang' type thing imo.

I have seen America as being far too selfish in the last several decades, with it's hyper aggressive international political policies, warring, and corporate raiding that leaves many countries debt slaves or held hostage by dictators and terrorists. And veterans have always been left holding an empty bag. As long as someone is smart enough to con them into their game, you can pay them in giving their lives meaning, purpose and the belief they are a part of something important. Shining meddles and parades also help.

America is done. The political and corporate interests have turned your country into a cash machine that has nearly given up its last golden egg. The people and the country are debt slaves now, and the rest of the world has come on line. The nice little historical and geographical stroke of luck that was WW2 is over, and you guys will fall back to where you were in the 30's.
Not exceptional. Just like every other empire before you. America squandered it's great promise, the american dream is over, time to wake up.

 

[Cold Front]

Rivers do flow naturally, just in a lesser state that they did before when they carried more water.

Rivers in their natural state create huge marshlands in areas where agriculture flourishes. Nobody. Not even the dopey environmentalists dare return to that.

 

[Arkain2K]

Gov. Jerry Brown asks potential nemesis — President Trump — for aid
By Louis Hansen
February 11, 2017

In December, Gov. Jerry Brown asserted California’s independence and blasted President Donald Trump for dismissingclimate change.

On Friday, the governor turned to his potential nemesis for help — specifically, asking the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) to declare a major disaster after the state was hammered by storms, floods and mudslides.

The request could be an early test of relations between the Democrats who run the nation’s largest state and the new Republican administration.

If California’s request is rejected, however, it might be difficult to pin it on a frosty relationship between the governor and the president, said Larry Gerston, professor emeritus of political science at San Jose State. “It’s an easy claim to make, but a hard one to prove,” he said.

FEMA considers many factors for disaster relief, including the severity of damage and cost, Gerston said. “It’s a very discretionary call by the president,” he said.

Gerston added that Trump just might reveal his reasoning behind any decision. “This president is fairly transparent with his feelings,” he said.

Brown formally requested the declaration for the series of storms striking the state between Jan. 3 and Jan. 12. Heavy rains, winds and snow, particularly in Northern California, left eight people dead and knocked out power to an estimated 1 million Californian homes and businesses without power.

“The impacts associated with this series of storms were substantial and widespread, devastating much of California,” Brown wrote.

The presidential declaration is a step toward freeing up federal money to supplement other public funds for cleanup efforts. Brown estimated that the public cleanup in California will cost more than $162 million.

Trump granted a similar request last month from Oregon, another blue state, which suffered from a severe winter storm before Christmas.

Brown attacked Trump’s energy and environmental policies at a forum for scientists in December. The governor vowed to protect climate research and policies aimed at curbing global warming. “We’ve got the scientists, we’ve got the lawyers and we’re ready to fight,” Brown told the audience.

Jack Pitney, a professor of politics and government at Claremont McKenna College, said governors and presidents have feuded for 200 years. Politics do not typically play into decision about emergency aid, he said, but “with Trump, you don’t assume anything.”

The state could also turn to its California’s Republican House members, such as Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy, to smooth relations with the Trump administration — and Vice President Mike Pence, a former Indiana governor, could be sympathetic to the state’s needs, Pitney said.

Other members of the congressional delegation have also contacted FEMA. Rep. Anna Eshoo, D-Palo Alto, told FEMA last month that the counties of Santa Cruz, Santa Clara and San Mateo had significant damage from the storms.

Eshoo plans to visit La Honda on Sunday with state and local leaders to inspect destruction from landslides and flooding.

A FEMA spokeswoman confirmed that the agency had received requests for disaster declarations from California and Nevada for storm-related damage.

Kelly Huston, deputy director with the governor’s office of emergency services, said the application was complex, given the large number of counties it affects. The state expected the request to be handled on its merits, he said.

“We’re processing it just like anything else,” he said.

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/02/...ks-potential-nemesis-president-trump-for-aid/

 

[Rod1]

Rivers in their natural state create huge marshlands in areas where agriculture flourishes. Nobody. Not even the dopey environmentalists dare return to that.

Nirvana fallacy.

 

[Cold Front]

Nirvana fallacy.

Appeal to Nature fallacy.

 

[Rod1]

It's not news to me. But such hypocrisy shows why your standard will never be met. Because even the people who agree with you can't come close to meeting it.

Modern environmentalism is about the control of nature. It just chooses to control it in different ways from traditional practices and then pretends, absurdly, that it's not really controlling nature.

The environmentalist practices of the state are not a return to some state of nature. They are rerouting the water in the state to their own priorities. In a few cases, I might even agree that those priorities are well worth it. I like to see flowing rivers, too. But they are still using water for man-made uses.



But Palm Springs was developed decades ago, before the modern environmental movement.

1.- Enviromentalism is not a partisan issue. I would expect someone who was raised in the countryside who is more likely to be conservative to have more appreciation for the wild than a city dwelling liberal elite.

2.- Modern enviromentalism is about balance, between human needs and the enviroment.

3.- No they are trying to strike a compromise between humans needs and nature, yes, rivers tended to overflow and create marshlands, that doesnt happens anymore, but that doesnt means that rivers need to go away, it simply means that rivers will no longer support marshlands but it doesnt means they cant support riparian ecosystems.

 

[Broken arrow]

I agree, selfishness is a virtue when placed in the context of humans being a highly social animal. So we often strive towards a sustainable balance, which in turn can be considered selfish. I don't see why people put these terms as polar opposites. Kind of a 'ying and yang' type thing imo.

I have seen America as being far too selfish in the last several decades, with it's hyper aggressive international political policies, warring, and corporate raiding that leaves many countries debt slaves or held hostage by dictators and terrorists. And veterans have always been left holding an empty bag. As long as someone is smart enough to con them into their game, you can pay them in giving their lives meaning, purpose and the belief they are a part of something important. Shining meddles and parades also help.

America is done. The political and corporate interests have turned your country into a cash machine that has nearly given up its last golden egg. The people and the country are debt slaves now, and the rest of the world has come on line. The nice little historical and geographical stroke of luck that was WW2 is over, and you guys will fall back to where you were in the 30's.
Not exceptional. Just like every other empire before you. America squandered it's great promise, the american dream is over, time to wake up.

 

[Rod1]

Appeal to Nature fallacy.

Im not appealing to nature, im not saying "fuck human needs, we need rivers".

Im saying if the enviroment is sacrificing for your needs, you should sacrifice something in return.

 

[Rod1]

@Cold Front

If Palm Springs was developed longs time ago does that means that it should always have access to cheap water? thats like claiming that since gas guzzlers were developed in the 60s gas should be cheaper for them.

Palm Springs can still exist, it would simply be required to pay more for water.

 

[Exi]

Solid counter point.

Your political system has been dysfunctional for decades and you will not get your superior position back again...ever.
Empire #1000 down. People with interest in power and profit don't give a shit about your flag. The rest of the world has arrived and they will go to greener pastures. Do you really think they need a populace of lazy, uneducated, under productive, self righteous, over privileged and entitled citizens, or do you think perhaps they will exercise options in the world market place?

Don't stop believing.

 

[RockstarChris]

the drought is so bad that the dams are overflowing.

 

[Fawlty]

I find it oddly troubling, in a social sense, that the OP felt the need to reassure us that he was definitely making a pun with the title.