Television X-MEN '97 (Leaked Season 2 Trailer, post #826)

[StoneColdSteveAustin]

@Mike notice there is no crying about the Red Hulk since he was a white male character and fits the profile these people need to accept copycat characters.


But the Asian hulk is the real problem here

 

[Mike]

Just to point out that YES they did replace the originals. Do you remember that the originals then moved over to be the original lineup of x-factor?

Changing up a team lineup which happened constantly is not even remotely the same as trying to directly replace a single character.

Their most popular characters did happen to be white males but it was the character, back story and history that people liked not their fucking skin colour. The problem is that Marvel keeps trying to replace the characters that people liked.

You just gloss over the fact that it is only EVER done in one direction. I'm just waiting of the white versions of popular black or minority characters... I'm sure the left wouldn't totally explode or anything LOL

So what about xmen 91 where they had two xmen teams, and incorporated all of these characters across the two teams? You're no looking at the big picture here. They temporarily rebooted the team so they could use the xmen ip to launch a bunch of new characters. At the same time, they could use the original xmen team to launch the xfactor ip. Thats what comics do, lineups are fluid and dynamic. But none of the characters introduced permantly replaced anyone in the original lineup. All of those og characters have returned to xmen books and been in other books.

And I'm not glossing over anything. You guys take a really weird stance on "fairness" when it comes to these fictional properties. So when these characters were created they were all white, because the primary buying demographic was white, thus ALL of them need to stay white forever or it's.... "not fair?" It's a weird argument that just comes off as anger over minority inclusion more than anything else. And I don't get it.

Went over this same stuff when the LOTR show was announced. All the characters in this fictional book about fictional events written nearly a century ago were white, so no matter how many reboots are done they all need to stay white. For the sake of..... authenticity? In a setting with dragons and wizards and talking trees and evil spirits. All of that is fine, but it's NOT fine to have any minorities in the setting.



And its impossible to have a rational conversation about it, because you guys get so irrationally angry about a few white characters being changed in a setting where 99% of the characters are white. Do you understand how we can't do an equivalent exchange one white for one minority swap, in settings where 99% of the original characters are white? It's like the only lens you can see it through is trying to anger white people. And not the idea that women and minorities enjoy these settings as well, and want to be included. And the content creators are going to include them because they want more people to buy their product.

So even if you completely remove politics from the equation you're going to continue to see reboots with minority characters, because it gives them a larger demo to make money off of. It's not some sinister conspiracy against white people. Most of these franchises are still mostly white characters ffs.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

Thats another point I was trying to make, people overly focus on bad reboots where minorities are involved. Ignoring that comics are filled with reboots of a white male to a different white male that also bombed hard, because the writing was bad or fans couldn't accept the new character.

Ben Reilly Spiderman, Kyle Raynor Green lantern, Azrael Batman. It's not just some recent woke trend, comics have a long history of both successful and botched reboots using tsame race as the OG character. Comics also reboot to try to shed old continuity to free up the writers, and to reach new audiences by rebooting without changing race or gender. This is a process that's about as old as comics are.

It sucked then, and it sucked now.

But back then there wasn't an obvious political motivation.

And respectfully, before you deny this, could you point out to me one... just one... comic mainstream Marvel trend in the last 20 years that's been right-wing?

The gender/race tokenizations, the obvious social commentary, and this....

 

[Contempt]

Once again this is wrong. Marvel, throughout its history, has always done short lived storylines that mixed up the status quo.


There even was a time the Hulk was Grey and Magneto replaced professor x as the Xmens leader and they lived in the outback. There was a time the main Xmen were on a team called X-Factor, then they returned to the Xmen.



Spider man once wore a black alien suit and there were 3-4 different versions of ghost rider.

Captain America once dropped the Stars and Stripes during the 1970s when marvel had its own version of watergate (oh the wokeness) and Rogers became Nomad. That was short lived as well.

"There even was a time the Hulk was Grey and Magneto replaced professor x as the Xmens leader and they lived in the outback. There was a time the main Xmen were on a team called X-Factor, then they returned to the Xmen."

If you actually read any of them you would know that these were not short lived events... and grey hulk was still Bruce Banner. Hulk #340 was one of my favorite issues for a long time.

...and yeah I know I have the entire run of x-factor which I mentioned earlier.

 

[Mike]

@Mike notice there is no crying about the Red Hulk since he was a white male character and fits the profile these people need to accept copycat characters.


But the Asian hulk is the real problem here

I jjst don't get it. It's the same nonsensical conversation every time, BUT WHAT IF THEY MADE A WHITE BLACK PANTHER! Oh really? That's the same thing as taking a setting that is 99% white male characters that are also established money making ips, and changing a small % of those characters to minorities or women? Why don't they change black characters to white characters! Um.... because there aren't very many of them to begin with. So how would doing that broaden their existing demos? Why don't they just make new characters that are minorities! Um.... because they want to continue to profit off of the existing ip, while hopefully reaching a new audience.

Even when something like this new LOTR show says fuck it we WILL just make some new characters, the goalposts get moved to but minorities don't belong in this setting PERIOD. Because it needs to stay.... logical and accurate? The show about wizards, and dragons. Yeah ok. Almost like there's something else that's the real problem.

 

[StoneColdSteveAustin]

It sucked then, and it sucked now.

But back then there wasn't an obvious political motivation.

And respectfully, before you deny this, could you point out to me one... just one... comic mainstream Marvel trend in the last 20 years that's been right-wing?

The gender/race tokenizations, the obvious social commentary, and this....

right wing tropes suck so why would any artist incorporate these types of things into their work.

 

[NoSmilez]

I grew up watching this but I swear they have been doing the Jean Grey, Cyclops and Wolverine love triangle thing on repeat in different media.

Anyways we need more juggernaut scenes so they can complete this masterpiece from my youth.

 

[Mike]

right wing tropes suck so why would any artist incorporate these types of things into their work.

More importantly, why would there have to be right wing representation. This isn't an election, it's entertainment. They can keep it apolitical, or shoehorn in whatever political message they like. And people can read or not read them. It's not like they are under some obligation to have a bipartisan message.

 

[Mike]

I grew up watching this but I swear they have been doing the Jean Grey, Cyclops and Wolverine love triangle thing on repeat in different media.

It's wild to think we are approaching 50 years of the same love triangle.

 

[StoneColdSteveAustin]

I jjst don't get it. It's the same nonsensical conversation every time, BUT WHAT IF THEY MADE A WHITE BLACK PANTHER! Oh really? That's the same thing as taking a setting that is 99% white male characters that are also established money making ips, and changing a small % of those characters to minorities or women? Why don't they change black characters to white characters! Um.... because there aren't very many of them to begin with. So how would doing that broaden there existing demos? Why don't they just make new characters that are minorities! Um.... because they want to continue to profit off of the existing ip, while hopefully reaching a new audience.

Even when something like this new LOTR show says fuck it we WILL just make some new characters, the goalposts get moved to but minorities don't belong in this setting PERIOD. Because it needs to stay.... logical and accurate? The show about wizards, and dragons. Yeah ok. Almost like there's something else that's the real problem.

Mike let’s just say there was a good storyline about a white man taking up the mantle of black panther for a short period of time I wouldn’t even be upset. Especially if it was inside of a larger storyline That made sense. I know it would only be short lived. But I know exactly what you mean and I completely understand the point you’re making and I agree with it

 

[Jack Reacheround]

Meh. I’d rather they do a darker version of the cartoon, like Spawn on HBO used to be, but better.

 

[NoSmilez]

It's wild to think we are approaching 50 years of the same love triangle.

They always introduce it in all the x men incarnations but never really complete it. I must admit I skipped out on the latest two X men movies. The apocalypse one and dark phoenix. I always assume it is the same old remake. It's either going to be sinister or apocalypse as the big bad. I might catch it this weekend or even tonight.

 

[Mike]

Mike let’s just say there was a good storyline about a white man taking up the mantle of black panther for a short period of time I wouldn’t even be upset. Especially if it was inside of a larger storyline That made sense. I know it would only be short lived.

I even mentioned in this very thread that I don't like Morales Spiderman and why. It's not like just because a character is changed to be black, I'll automatically love it lol. I also hated the change from Peter Parker to Ben Reilly Spiderman in the 90s. Well, I think everyone hated the Clone Saga shit lol. To this day it's seen as a low point in the franchise. Reboots are something that happen all the time with varying degrees of success.

Nothing in comics continuity is some sacred untouchable thing. Back in the day they used to say a character thought to be killed off for real was as dead as Bucky. Then they brought the winter soldier back. The Jason Todd Joker was seen much the same way over at DC, then they brought him back. There has NEVER been any character or storyline that is off limits.

 

[Contempt]

So what about xmen 91 where they had two xmen teams, and incorporated all of these characters across the two teams? You're no looking at the big picture here. They temporarily rebooted the team so they could use the xmen ip to launch a bunch of new characters. At the same time, they could use the original xmen team to launch the xfactor ip. Thats what comics do, lineups are fluid and dynamic. But none of the characters introduced permantly replaced anyone in the original lineup. All of those og characters have returned to xmen books and been in other books.

And I'm not glossing over anything. You guys take a really weird stance on "fairness" when it comes to these fictional properties. So when these characters were created they were all white, because the primary buying demographic was white, thus ALL of them need to stay white forever or it's.... "not fair?" It's a weird argument that just comes off as anger over minority inclusion more than anything else. And I don't get it.

Went over this same stuff when the LOTR show was announced. All the characters in this fictional book about fictional events written nearly a century ago were white, so no matter how many reboots are done they all need to stay white. For the sake of..... authenticity? In a setting with dragons and wizards and talking trees and evil spirits. All of that is fine, but it's NOT fine to have any minorities in the setting.



And its impossible to have a rational conversation about it, because you guys get so irrationally angry about a few white characters being changed in a setting where 99% of the characters are white. Do you understand how we can't do an equivalent exchange one white for one minority swap, in settings where 99% of the original characters are white? It's like the only lens you can see it through is trying to anger white people. And not the idea that women and minorities enjoy these settings as well, and want to be included. And the content creators are going to include them because they want more people to buy their product.

So even if you completely remove politics from the equation you're going to continue to see reboots with minority characters, because it gives them a larger demo to make money off of. It's not some sinister conspiracy against white people. Most of these franchises are still mostly white characters ffs.

There is way more that I want to say on the topic but currently I have other things to do. I'll just stick with this one point:

"It's a weird argument that just comes off as anger over minority inclusion more than anything else. And I don't get it."

It's not minority INCLUSION that anyone has a problem with, it's minority REPLACEMENT that only ever flows in one direction.

The problem is when they write up all their new woke characters that no-one is interested in and they decide, fuck you for not reading them, we're just going to replace the characters that you want to read instead. They think people will have no choice but to read their ideologically driven bullshit then but they miss the point that whenever they try this, people just stop reading and they have to roll it back.

If these untalented, woke hacks had anything even resembling talent, they could think up new characters that people want to read about rather than fucking with existing characters. I don't give a crap if a character is black, blue, gay, straight... are they an interesting ORIGINAL character or not?

 

[Mike]

They always introduce it in all the x men incarnations but never really complete it. I must admit I skipped out on the latest two X men movies. The apocalypse one and dark phoenix. I always assume it is the same old remake. It's either going to be sinister or apocalypse as the big bad. I might catch it this weekend or even tonight.

Haven't seen Dark Phoenix but I saw Apocalypse in the theater. It was pretty bad.

 

[StoneColdSteveAustin]

Here’s a good right wing storyline for a spider man comic.

Spidey has to help senior citizens to the hospital because they were taken off of Medicare to be put on a voucher system and they don’t have enough money to take the bus to the hospital.


Or how about captain America has to console families who were dropped from their healthcare coverage because they have pre existing conditions and the bank is now foreclosing on their home due to their medical bills. As Rogers leaves the family he has a lot of self doubt about the country he fights for and how it treats its citizens.


Maybe tony Stark could go across the country and help feed school children that had free lunches taken away from them so Tony himself could accept another tax break.


Riveting right wing storylines.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

Imo they thought they could have the best of both worlds, by killing off ultimates Spiderman and replacing him. They could have a black Spiderman they could try to reach a new audience with, while still having the extremely popular white Peter Parker Spiderman in the main continuity. So, yes. I hated it because it arbitrarily killed the ultimate Peter Parker storyline. Which didn't just fuck up USM, but the whole line as previously they had been building the entire universe around Peter Parker.

So yeah, I hated it. But it wasn't just Morales Spiderman, but a series of frankly baffling editorial decisions across the entire line. It was right around the launch of Ultimates volume 3 that the whole imprint started to go to shit. I dont mind the idea of a black Spiderman, but hated how it was implemented. Much like the spider clone saga a decade earlier that tried to replace Parker with Ben Reilly.

Finally, something we can 100% agree on.

Another something we may agree on... X-23's origin (first two arcs) is awesome.

Technically, she's a tokenized character... (making a new character similar to the original, but changing the sex/race)... however her origin is so damn good its very forgivable.

Marvel was wanting to make a 'female Wolverine" since the 80s, but never got the storyline right without it being... horrible. Thankfully the right writer came along after her appearance in the Evolution TV series, to make her have a very dark 1st appearance as a prostitute in NYX (was that retconed?), to given two 6-issue arcs witten by Craig Kyle & Christopher Yost - Innocence Lost & Target X.

 

[Mike]

There is way more that I want to say on the topic but currently I have other things to do. I'll just stick with this one point:

"It's a weird argument that just comes off as anger over minority inclusion more than anything else. And I don't get it."

It's not minority INCLUSION that anyone has a problem with, it's minority REPLACEMENT that only ever flows in one direction.

The problem is when they write up all their new woke characters that no-one is interested in and they decide, fuck you for not reading them, we're just going to replace the characters that you want to read instead. They think people will have no choice but to read their ideologically driven bullshit then but they miss the point that whenever they try this, people just stop reading and they have to roll it back.

If these untalented, woke hacks had anything even resembling talent, they could think up new characters that people want to read about rather than fucking with existing characters. I don't give a crap if a character is black, blue, gay, straight... are they an interesting ORIGINAL character or not?

And most of the time, these characters don't permanently replace original characters. If they did more often, you'd have a better point. And we've gone over MANY examples of how they didn't replace or even permanently displace the original. Not with the new xmen lineup, or asian hulk, or female iron man, etc. They often kill off characters in comics to introduce a newer version, then resurrect the original or reveal they never died. This is used to push a new character with help from the popularity of the existing character, and happens for more often than actual permanent replacement.

 

[StoneColdSteveAustin]

I even mentioned in this very thread that I don't like Morales Spiderman and why. It's not like just because a character is changed to be black, I'll automatically love it lol. I also hated the change from Peter Parker to Ben Reilly Spiderman in the 90s. Well, I think everyone hated the Clone Saga shit lol. To this day it's seen as a low point in the franchise. Reboots are something that happen all the time with varying degrees of success.

Nothing in comics continuity is some sacred untouchable thing. Back in the day they used to say a character thought to be killed off for real was as dead as Bucky. Then they brought the winter soldier back. The Jason Todd Joker was seen much the same way over at DC, then they brought him back. There has NEVER been any character or storyline that is off limits.

see I personally like miles morales a lot but I don’t like Riri Williams at all. I didn’t enjoy the character the same way I liked Amadeus Cho or Miles Morales or Jane Foster.



and yes the clone saga wasn’t very good. I kinda remember dropping spider man at the time. But came back to it again when J Michael S. Starting writing the title again.

 

[Mike]

Finally, something we can 100% agree on.

Another something we may agree on... X-23's origin (first two arcs) is awesome.

Technically, she's a tokenized character... (making a new character similar to the original, but changing the sex/race)... however her origin is so damn good its very forgivable.

Marvel was wanting to make a 'female Wolverine" since the 80s, but never got the storyline right without it being... horrible. Thankfully the right writer came along after her appearance in the Evolution TV series, to make her have a very dark 1st appearance as a prostitute in NYX (was that retconed?), to given two 6-issue arcs witten by Craig Kyle & Christopher Yost - Innocence Lost & Target X.

Yeah I tend to dislike these reboots and ner versions more often than I like them tbh. Didnt like Morales, or Kyle Raynor GL, Ben Reilly Spiderman, Azrael batman. Where I disagree is when people act like it's some new highly politicized element, and not a thing comics have done with varying degrees of success forever.

Some of the ones I did really like were the ultimate avengers including nick fury. Minus the creepy incest lol. And ultimates Spiderman during the Parker run. It's kind of funny that many of the elements from the MCU avengers are taken from the ultimates, and not the 616 avengers. I really liked how closely Spiderman was connected to other events in the universe and they were subtly building him up to be a future leader and member of the avengers. Stuff like the avengers fighting the sinister six, and bringing medical tech to heal Peter when he got shot. Cap telling Peter that he would eventually grow to be the best of all of them. Seemed like there was a lot of foreshadowing and world building going on that they just tossed in a shredder.