wonderboy and kata for MMA

[j123]

Lol, he better not say something like “bullshit” about karate schools here, too.

Karate schools where you are, are bullshit

 

[Dexter]

Karate schools where you are, are bullshit

I’ve sent you the invitation for Mortal Kombat. In the forrest, of course. Come alone, we’ll come alone, too.

 

[Hotora86]

Here is my thoughts on kata at the moment, I've spoken about kata many times and my opinion often changes. Generally I say 'sure why not' I can see what it can be useful - but I also think that kata without bunkai is useless (though take that with a grain of salt) but I also wonder if bunkai as a concept makes kata irrelevant.

Would be interested for someone with a pyjama pants background to give their thoughts - because I approach everything from a full contact mindset

Haven't been around for a while, gotta catch up on the Karate threads.

IMO Kata (form) without Bunkai (substance, meaning) is hollow, it's a dance. So just have Bunkai every time, right? Well, it sounds straightforward but there's actually a few issues with Bunkai:

1. Nobody is 100% sure about the "true" Bunkai

Kata and Bunkai is real fun for historians and archaeologists... because if you wanna find the original Kata and proper Bunkai you'll be digging though tons of books, scrolls, articles, videos... there are people who have dedicated THEIR ENTIRE LIVES to finding real / practical Bunkai!

The ones I know best are Patrick McCarthy:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrP5pmdeV9ZTv5oGgtqoI6A

and Iain Abernethy:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSj2QtVA86RVWDXXSnP0PkA

Their versions look real nice and proper... but we still have no guarantee that they are in line with what the original masters / authors intended.

And sadly, most of the "real-looking" or even "sensible" Bunkai hasn't been passed on properly from master to student and most blackbelts don't question what they have been taught... so what they pass on to their students is garbage.

2. There are 3 different types of Bunkai

1) Omote - it is what it looks like (ex. a block)
2) Ura - actually, it's something different (ex. a grab and lock)
3) Honto - actually no, it's a very specific move for a number of contexts (...)

In more detail:
https://www.karatebyjesse.com/kata-bunkai-omote-ura-honto/

Supposedly the levels are adjusted so that newbies learn Omote, advanced students learn Ura and then senior blackbelts can get to the Honto... but that's just super confusing and wastes a lot of time before you get to the "real deal", which brings me to the next point:

3. The way Kata and Bunkai is taught

The sequence usually goes like this:

1) Learn the Kata
Learn it really well. Perfect the form, the movement, the speed. Make it look real nice. Maybe win a competition with it, nice work champ!

2) Learn the Omote Bunkai
What a treat, you get to know what all these cool moves mean! OK, punch, block, kick, block, punch... this is simple. Take a few years to engrave this into your brain...

3) Learn the Ura Bunkai
Remember all that Omote Bunkai you learned in the last couple years? Forget it, it's rubbish. Ura is the real deal. It's more complex but a lot more practical. And suddenly makes sense for fighting as opposed to all those silly wide blocks... Now beat this into your head for all eternity!

4) Learn the Honto Bunkai
Remember all that Ura Bunkai you learned to get your black belt? Forget it, it's rubbish. The real deal is Honto but... I'm afraid you'll have to go to a million seminars with visiting masters to get a glimpse of that... Oh you want more? ... Just immigrate to Japan and ask to become an Uchi-Deshi ("inside student"). They might not take a white guy, they might take you but not teach you properly, they might teach you properly but always in Japanese, they might not know Honto for sure themselves but hey - you can try!

...

So there you have it - my issues with Kata and Bunkai. It's still fun to do Kata once in a while and doing it does help with body coordination to an extent. Knowing Ura Bunkai is pretty nice too, not that it would trump the classic 1-2 most of the time...

If the proper REAL Bunkai was well known and documented I'd expect the training to look like this:

1. learn the real Bunkai (fuck off with dumbed down beginner levels)
2. learn the move sequences - and drill them with Bunkai in mind
3. connect all the move sequences together in a way that has sense and flow - that's your Kata

So Bunkai first, Kata second. Bunkai being the techniques themselves in proper context and Kata being the full sequencing and a means to train solo when you've understood the Bunkai. I suppose this may have been the way it was done originally in Okinawa, but maybe @BudoNoah can correct me on that.

In a way, that's how it is done in Judo - they learn techniques, transitions and counters first, then they add Kata training to amplify or expand the basics. Sadly, Karate has taken an opposite approach...

 

[DoctorTaco]

I have to agree with @Woldog and @AndyMaBobs.

I'd take the person with just kata training over the untrained newb every time. And yes because of the muscle memory. Plenty of kata movements mirror actual fighting movements. If the kata champ has been training kata exclusively then the moment in a fight that his body finds itself in something that resembles a kata movement, muscle memory will move him into the next movement naturally. And over time, that's enough of an advantage over someone who doesn't have the muscle memory and has to figure out every movement in the moment.

agree

 

[CFGroup]

Haven't been around for a while, gotta catch up on the Karate threads.

IMO Kata (form) without Bunkai (substance, meaning) is hollow, it's a dance. So just have Bunkai every time, right? Well, it sounds straightforward but there's actually a few issues with Bunkai:

1. Nobody is 100% sure about the "true" Bunkai

Kata and Bunkai is real fun for historians and archaeologists... because if you wanna find the original Kata and proper Bunkai you'll be digging though tons of books, scrolls, articles, videos... there are people who have dedicated THEIR ENTIRE LIVES to finding real / practical Bunkai!

The ones I know best are Patrick McCarthy:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrP5pmdeV9ZTv5oGgtqoI6A

and Iain Abernethy:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSj2QtVA86RVWDXXSnP0PkA

Their versions look real nice and proper... but we still have no guarantee that they are in line with what the original masters / authors intended.

And sadly, most of the "real-looking" or even "sensible" Bunkai hasn't been passed on properly from master to student and most blackbelts don't question what they have been taught... so what they pass on to their students is garbage.

2. There are 3 different types of Bunkai

1) Omote - it is what it looks like (ex. a block)
2) Ura - actually, it's something different (ex. a grab and lock)
3) Honto - actually no, it's a very specific move for a number of contexts (...)

In more detail:
https://www.karatebyjesse.com/kata-bunkai-omote-ura-honto/

Supposedly the levels are adjusted so that newbies learn Omote, advanced students learn Ura and then senior blackbelts can get to the Honto... but that's just super confusing and wastes a lot of time before you get to the "real deal", which brings me to the next point:

3. The way Kata and Bunkai is taught

The sequence usually goes like this:

1) Learn the Kata
Learn it really well. Perfect the form, the movement, the speed. Make it look real nice. Maybe win a competition with it, nice work champ!

2) Learn the Omote Bunkai
What a treat, you get to know what all these cool moves mean! OK, punch, block, kick, block, punch... this is simple. Take a few years to engrave this into your brain...

3) Learn the Ura Bunkai
Remember all that Omote Bunkai you learned in the last couple years? Forget it, it's rubbish. Ura is the real deal. It's more complex but a lot more practical. And suddenly makes sense for fighting as opposed to all those silly wide blocks... Now beat this into your head for all eternity!

4) Learn the Honto Bunkai
Remember all that Ura Bunkai you learned to get your black belt? Forget it, it's rubbish. The real deal is Honto but... I'm afraid you'll have to go to a million seminars with visiting masters to get a glimpse of that... Oh you want more? ... Just immigrate to Japan and ask to become an Uchi-Deshi ("inside student"). They might not take a white guy, they might take you but not teach you properly, they might teach you properly but always in Japanese, they might not know Honto for sure themselves but hey - you can try!

...

So there you have it - my issues with Kata and Bunkai. It's still fun to do Kata once in a while and doing it does help with body coordination to an extent. Knowing Ura Bunkai is pretty nice too, not that it would trump the classic 1-2 most of the time...

If the proper REAL Bunkai was well known and documented I'd expect the training to look like this:

1. learn the real Bunkai (fuck off with dumbed down beginner levels)
2. learn the move sequences - and drill them with Bunkai in mind
3. connect all the move sequences together in a way that has sense and flow - that's your Kata

So Bunkai first, Kata second. Bunkai being the techniques themselves in proper context and Kata being the full sequencing and a means to train solo when you've understood the Bunkai. I suppose this may have been the way it was done originally in Okinawa, but maybe @BudoNoah can correct me on that.

In a way, that's how it is done in Judo - they learn techniques, transitions and counters first, then they add Kata training to amplify or expand the basics. Sadly, Karate has taken an opposite approach...

Basically the way I've been training since the Dojo closed.

I outlined it a few pages ago for Andy, but it's pretty much taking the 6 to 10 throws I'm successful with in Randori, break them down to their fundamental movements-I did get a great couple of years of Tai Chi training from one of my former Judo coaches when I was benched for 6 months, but kept training it after classes with him-to perfect(never finishes) the alignments to protect the knees and ground effectively, fine tune the coaling and twisting to optimize power projection and re train me subconscious to execute everything while focusing on my breathing to extend my "gas tank" cardio.

Take all the successful footwork patterns that I've memorized from Randori to camouflage my true objectives, make those and some tried and true basics into solo floor patterns.

Combine the two parts into slow "forms" lasting 5 minutes for the slow ones, "walk around" speed to add in the coaling/projection and full all out "Randori" speed with abbreviated footwork that's really just transitioning to the next lower body foundation for the next throw.

I can start with two my favorite right now Uchi Gari faint Tai Otoshi/Haria Goshi. Using the setup camouflage footwork to create new angles every new set of two or three throws. I have a 12 by 12 foot space so making sure I'm traveling the whole space in as many degrees as I can.

O Uchi Gari is another great faint to "string" a ton of finish throws on to. The combinations are almost endless when you take a list of 10 or more throws and 6 or more setup footwork patterns.

On the Judo Nate No Kata that's very structured where each finish is followed by a formal re set. I'm bastardizing from TKD and Tai Chi where the techniques and transitional movements flow in a linear way. I love the meditative discipline of the Kodokan Judo form execution, but for sharpening "real" meaning full resistance "Randori" the linear free flowing "form" I outlined has worked for me after multiple benches for surgeries. I think I said before after a three month camp of solo shadow Uchikomi and my bastardized forms I've been 80% back on the mat. Some of the "feel" in reading my opponent is dulled, but my movements are fast and sharp.

 

[Hotora86]

Basically the way I've been training since the Dojo closed.

I outlined it a few pages ago for Andy, but it's pretty much taking the 6 to 10 throws I'm successful with in Randori, break them down to their fundamental movements-I did get a great couple of years of Tai Chi training from one of my former Judo coaches when I was benched for 6 months, but kept training it after classes with him-to perfect(never finishes) the alignments to protect the knees and ground effectively, fine tune the coaling and twisting to optimize power projection and re train me subconscious to execute everything while focusing on my breathing to extend my "gas tank" cardio.

Take all the successful footwork patterns that I've memorized from Randori to camouflage my true objectives, make those and some tried and true basics into solo floor patterns.

Combine the two parts into slow "forms" lasting 5 minutes for the slow ones, "walk around" speed to add in the coaling/projection and full all out "Randori" speed with abbreviated footwork that's really just transitioning to the next lower body foundation for the next throw.

I can start with two my favorite right now Uchi Gari faint Tai Otoshi/Haria Goshi. Using the setup camouflage footwork to create new angles every new set of two or three throws. I have a 12 by 12 foot space so making sure I'm traveling the whole space in as many degrees as I can.

O Uchi Gari is another great faint to "string" a ton of finish throws on to. The combinations are almost endless when you take a list of 10 or more throws and 6 or more setup footwork patterns.

On the Judo Nate No Kata that's very structured where each finish is followed by a formal re set. I'm bastardizing from TKD and Tai Chi where the techniques and transitional movements flow in a linear way. I love the meditative discipline of the Kodokan Judo form execution, but for sharpening "real" meaning full resistance "Randori" the linear free flowing "form" I outlined has worked for me after multiple benches for surgeries. I think I said before after a three month camp of solo shadow Uchikomi and my bastardized forms I've been 80% back on the mat. Some of the "feel" in reading my opponent is dulled, but my movements are fast and sharp.

And this is what (most) Karate masters intended with their Kata!

"Let me show you how to fight in certain circumstances. Here's the entry, the feint, the movement, the footwork, the counter, the flow, the finish... etc. We will drill this in pairs for a couple months and then you can do it all solo with perfect technique based on what you have learned."

But now instead we have "Here's a set of moves. Memorize it and make it look good for the tournament. I'll show you what this all means later." - Form over function. (pun intended)

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Haven't been around for a while, gotta catch up on the Karate threads.

IMO Kata (form) without Bunkai (substance, meaning) is hollow, it's a dance. So just have Bunkai every time, right? Well, it sounds straightforward but there's actually a few issues with Bunkai:

1. Nobody is 100% sure about the "true" Bunkai

Kata and Bunkai is real fun for historians and archaeologists... because if you wanna find the original Kata and proper Bunkai you'll be digging though tons of books, scrolls, articles, videos... there are people who have dedicated THEIR ENTIRE LIVES to finding real / practical Bunkai!

The ones I know best are Patrick McCarthy:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrP5pmdeV9ZTv5oGgtqoI6A

and Iain Abernethy:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSj2QtVA86RVWDXXSnP0PkA

Their versions look real nice and proper... but we still have no guarantee that they are in line with what the original masters / authors intended.

And sadly, most of the "real-looking" or even "sensible" Bunkai hasn't been passed on properly from master to student and most blackbelts don't question what they have been taught... so what they pass on to their students is garbage.

2. There are 3 different types of Bunkai

1) Omote - it is what it looks like (ex. a block)
2) Ura - actually, it's something different (ex. a grab and lock)
3) Honto - actually no, it's a very specific move for a number of contexts (...)

In more detail:
https://www.karatebyjesse.com/kata-bunkai-omote-ura-honto/

Supposedly the levels are adjusted so that newbies learn Omote, advanced students learn Ura and then senior blackbelts can get to the Honto... but that's just super confusing and wastes a lot of time before you get to the "real deal", which brings me to the next point:

3. The way Kata and Bunkai is taught

The sequence usually goes like this:

1) Learn the Kata
Learn it really well. Perfect the form, the movement, the speed. Make it look real nice. Maybe win a competition with it, nice work champ!

2) Learn the Omote Bunkai
What a treat, you get to know what all these cool moves mean! OK, punch, block, kick, block, punch... this is simple. Take a few years to engrave this into your brain...

3) Learn the Ura Bunkai
Remember all that Omote Bunkai you learned in the last couple years? Forget it, it's rubbish. Ura is the real deal. It's more complex but a lot more practical. And suddenly makes sense for fighting as opposed to all those silly wide blocks... Now beat this into your head for all eternity!

4) Learn the Honto Bunkai
Remember all that Ura Bunkai you learned to get your black belt? Forget it, it's rubbish. The real deal is Honto but... I'm afraid you'll have to go to a million seminars with visiting masters to get a glimpse of that... Oh you want more? ... Just immigrate to Japan and ask to become an Uchi-Deshi ("inside student"). They might not take a white guy, they might take you but not teach you properly, they might teach you properly but always in Japanese, they might not know Honto for sure themselves but hey - you can try!

...

So there you have it - my issues with Kata and Bunkai. It's still fun to do Kata once in a while and doing it does help with body coordination to an extent. Knowing Ura Bunkai is pretty nice too, not that it would trump the classic 1-2 most of the time...

If the proper REAL Bunkai was well known and documented I'd expect the training to look like this:

1. learn the real Bunkai (fuck off with dumbed down beginner levels)
2. learn the move sequences - and drill them with Bunkai in mind
3. connect all the move sequences together in a way that has sense and flow - that's your Kata

So Bunkai first, Kata second. Bunkai being the techniques themselves in proper context and Kata being the full sequencing and a means to train solo when you've understood the Bunkai. I suppose this may have been the way it was done originally in Okinawa, but maybe @BudoNoah can correct me on that.

In a way, that's how it is done in Judo - they learn techniques, transitions and counters first, then they add Kata training to amplify or expand the basics. Sadly, Karate has taken an opposite approach...

Thank you for the explanation! I new judo had kata, but didn't know how it worked. Will go either the kata and bukai points you made a few times before I pass any comment! So I definitely understand it

 

[CFGroup]

Thank you for the explanation! I new judo had kata, but didn't know how it worked. Will go either the kata and bukai points you made a few times before I pass any comment! So I definitely understand it

Here's the Kodokan Judo Kata syllabus

http://kodokanjudoinstitute.org/en/waza/forms/

My take is they are way to formal with the entry and re set ritual.
I loved learning and training it for the attention to detail, but in my own training-with the oversight and participation of that Dual Judo and Tai Chi teacher-I wanted them to more closely replicate the speed and "ugly" pace of paired Randori.

I'll open up the Pandora's box of pointing out the cross application of Kodokan syllabus through Tomiki Sensei and Aikido an art my lineage has high level Dan rank in both as a fluid application I seek in training. My Dan promotion Uke is a dual Shodan(probably higher now 10 years on) in Judo and Aikido from this guys lineage. When I saw this clip it kinda lit the lightbulb as to "fighting speed" but with Judo throws instead. My goal back in '07 re habbing from re building my elbow was to be able to execute my solo Uchikomi at this speed. It pretty much proved itself when I got back on the mat and was at 80% after having to stay off from Dec to late May '09. I still never got as fast, grounded as Claude Sensei-who is trained by a Japanese national Judo Dan- but it got the wheels turning for solo training I replicated 3 years ago for my hip and now am doing in lockdown.

At speed most of those Tsuki's could just as easily have a closed fisted hand.

Pandora's box opening....

LOL!

 

[JohnPJones]

Haven't been around for a while, gotta catch up on the Karate threads.

IMO Kata (form) without Bunkai (substance, meaning) is hollow, it's a dance. So just have Bunkai every time, right? Well, it sounds straightforward but there's actually a few issues with Bunkai:

1. Nobody is 100% sure about the "true" Bunkai

Kata and Bunkai is real fun for historians and archaeologists... because if you wanna find the original Kata and proper Bunkai you'll be digging though tons of books, scrolls, articles, videos... there are people who have dedicated THEIR ENTIRE LIVES to finding real / practical Bunkai!

The ones I know best are Patrick McCarthy:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrP5pmdeV9ZTv5oGgtqoI6A

and Iain Abernethy:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSj2QtVA86RVWDXXSnP0PkA

Their versions look real nice and proper... but we still have no guarantee that they are in line with what the original masters / authors intended.

And sadly, most of the "real-looking" or even "sensible" Bunkai hasn't been passed on properly from master to student and most blackbelts don't question what they have been taught... so what they pass on to their students is garbage.

2. There are 3 different types of Bunkai

1) Omote - it is what it looks like (ex. a block)
2) Ura - actually, it's something different (ex. a grab and lock)
3) Honto - actually no, it's a very specific move for a number of contexts (...)

In more detail:
https://www.karatebyjesse.com/kata-bunkai-omote-ura-honto/

Supposedly the levels are adjusted so that newbies learn Omote, advanced students learn Ura and then senior blackbelts can get to the Honto... but that's just super confusing and wastes a lot of time before you get to the "real deal", which brings me to the next point:

3. The way Kata and Bunkai is taught

The sequence usually goes like this:

1) Learn the Kata
Learn it really well. Perfect the form, the movement, the speed. Make it look real nice. Maybe win a competition with it, nice work champ!

2) Learn the Omote Bunkai
What a treat, you get to know what all these cool moves mean! OK, punch, block, kick, block, punch... this is simple. Take a few years to engrave this into your brain...

3) Learn the Ura Bunkai
Remember all that Omote Bunkai you learned in the last couple years? Forget it, it's rubbish. Ura is the real deal. It's more complex but a lot more practical. And suddenly makes sense for fighting as opposed to all those silly wide blocks... Now beat this into your head for all eternity!

4) Learn the Honto Bunkai
Remember all that Ura Bunkai you learned to get your black belt? Forget it, it's rubbish. The real deal is Honto but... I'm afraid you'll have to go to a million seminars with visiting masters to get a glimpse of that... Oh you want more? ... Just immigrate to Japan and ask to become an Uchi-Deshi ("inside student"). They might not take a white guy, they might take you but not teach you properly, they might teach you properly but always in Japanese, they might not know Honto for sure themselves but hey - you can try!

...

So there you have it - my issues with Kata and Bunkai. It's still fun to do Kata once in a while and doing it does help with body coordination to an extent. Knowing Ura Bunkai is pretty nice too, not that it would trump the classic 1-2 most of the time...

If the proper REAL Bunkai was well known and documented I'd expect the training to look like this:

1. learn the real Bunkai (fuck off with dumbed down beginner levels)
2. learn the move sequences - and drill them with Bunkai in mind
3. connect all the move sequences together in a way that has sense and flow - that's your Kata

So Bunkai first, Kata second. Bunkai being the techniques themselves in proper context and Kata being the full sequencing and a means to train solo when you've understood the Bunkai. I suppose this may have been the way it was done originally in Okinawa, but maybe @BudoNoah can correct me on that.

In a way, that's how it is done in Judo - they learn techniques, transitions and counters first, then they add Kata training to amplify or expand the basics. Sadly, Karate has taken an opposite approach...

and something worth noting that ian has pointed out is that the original intent behind the kata is likely long gone because know one really knows what the original katas looked like for the most part these days after 200+ years of being taught slightly different at the very least, stacking 2 or 3 slight differences on top of each other can lead to a major difference.

 

[Hotora86]

and something worth noting that ian has pointed out is that the original intent behind the kata is likely long gone because know one really knows what the original katas looked like for the most part these days after 200+ years of being taught slightly different at the very least, stacking 2 or 3 slight differences on top of each other can lead to a major difference.

Right on time with his newest video on topic!

 

[Hotora86]

Here's the Kodokan Judo Kata syllabus

http://kodokanjudoinstitute.org/en/waza/forms/

My take is they are way to formal with the entry and re set ritual.
I loved learning and training it for the attention to detail, but in my own training-with the oversight and participation of that Dual Judo and Tai Chi teacher-I wanted them to more closely replicate the speed and "ugly" pace of paired Randori.

I'll open up the Pandora's box of pointing out the cross application of Kodokan syllabus through Tomiki Sensei and Aikido an art my lineage has high level Dan rank in both as a fluid application I seek in training. My Dan promotion Uke is a dual Shodan(probably higher now 10 years on) in Judo and Aikido from this guys lineage. When I saw this clip it kinda lit the lightbulb as to "fighting speed" but with Judo throws instead. My goal back in '07 re habbing from re building my elbow was to be able to execute my solo Uchikomi at this speed. It pretty much proved itself when I got back on the mat and was at 80% after having to stay off from Dec to late May '09. I still never got as fast, grounded as Claude Sensei-who is trained by a Japanese national Judo Dan- but it got the wheels turning for solo training I replicated 3 years ago for my hip and now am doing in lockdown.

At speed most of those Tsuki's could just as easily have a closed fisted hand.

Pandora's box opening....

LOL!

Your comments on solo throwing practice reminded me of another vid by Iain. Note how the "empty handed" method (no equipment) is pretty much ... a high-speed kata fragment.