wonderboy and kata for MMA

[JohnPJones]

Fight against who? More or less anyone can fight, just look at a pub brawl. Like, what qualifies as being able to fight for you? Because I would be very surprised if a taolu wushu champion didn't know how to fight. My reasoning being that though we think of what works in combat sports like MMA and kickboxing - that's different from fighting in of itself.

I was talking to a 19 year old who has started Muay Thai recently, he was laughing at wing chun saying it was useless for fighting and that he would beat them up. To which my response was, no, though it might look dumb and might not work against a seasoned thai boxer, that wing chun guy would absolutely kick his ass - because there's more to fighting than just the techniques you use or the context of combat sports.

My point mainly being that, those people training in kata competition, I can reasonably assume, didn't get to be world champions in kata through only kata practise alone, surely they would have had to do a lot of kumite along the way to get there - and if I were to discredit someone as a martial artist because they didn't 'fight' - I don't consider point based karate competition to be a fight either, so I would have to discount them as martial artists too.

I don't discount them as martial artists, but I hope you can see why I don't like the idea of saying someone is or isn't a martial artist based on my own personal value in how they compete or express their style.

anyone can get in a fight, is like saying anyone can shoot thus everyone who touches a gun is a marksmen.

some one who trains to fight imo is someone who has a high likelihood of winning a fight against a regular person due to skill in fighting, and can hold their own against others who have similar levels of training to fight.

i'd call kid who has wrestled in a pee wee league for 2 years more of a fighter/martial artist than someone who has 'trained' karate/kung fu/TKD etc for 20 years with a hyper focus on kata.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

anyone can get in a fight, is like saying anyone can shoot thus everyone who touches a gun is a marksmen.

some one who trains to fight imo is someone who has a high likelihood of winning a fight against a regular person due to skill in fighting, and can hold their own against others who have similar levels of training to fight.

i'd call kid who has wrestled in a pee wee league for 2 years more of a fighter/martial artist than someone who has 'trained' karate/kung fu/TKD etc for 20 years with a hyper focus on kata.

Yeah can't jive with that I'm afraid!

 

[JohnPJones]

Yeah can't jive with that I'm afraid!

simply put i doubt that the kata world champs and the snychornized kata types have spent much if any time on any sort of kumite. combat sport or self defense focused. you don't get to be great at something by splitting your focus(outside of very rare instances anyway)like michael jordan and baseball...to get to be one of the best players in the NBA at the time, and one of the best ever so far, he had to focus on basketballl. he then eventually tried to work on another sport, and was awful...same concept to me.

 

[Woldog]

Any one who does repetitive muscle memory actions in a way that resemble fighting will toast someone who does not. The fact that they do choreographed fighting has no meaning whatsoever, the only disadvantage they are at is the fact they are probably not used to actually taking a full contact blow.

You put a 150lb newby in the ring with a 150lb 5 year Tai Chi practitioner and it's likely the Tai Chi guy will beat the newbys chakras out of alignment even though he's never done full contact and usually stands there looking at a lake in hammer pants.

 

[Woldog]

dgaf what a little bitch made ass coward like you thinks.

Better than you at fighting, so your not in a place to talk shit.

Kumite death match in the forest aye? I guess well have to take your word for it, just like we gotta take spacetimes word for it.

suck a dick you fake ass bitch

@Tayski has had quite a few fights, I've seen videos of some them and he's a pretty fucking high level fighter. I wouldn't say he's a fake at all. I mean I can't post the videos up because they have his real name in them. But you know I wouldn't call him a fake just because he hasn't posted footage.
I've never posted footage of my fights because they have my full name and city I live in and I simply can't be bothered downloading and re-uploading them on my own channel. Certain people on the forum have seen my fights though.


Edit: I've never seen footage of a forest death match though. I'm not sure what this is.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Any one who does repetitive muscle memory actions in a way that resemble fighting will toast someone who does not. The fact that they do choreographed fighting has no meaning whatsoever, the only disadvantage they are at is the fact they are probably not used to actually taking a full contact blow.

You put a 150lb newby in the ring with a 150lb 5 year Tai Chi practitioner and it's likely the Tai Chi guy will beat the newbys chakras out of alignment even though he's never done full contact and usually stands there looking at a lake in hammer pants.

This was pretty much what I was thinking too.

 

[JohnPJones]

Any one who does repetitive muscle memory actions in a way that resemble fighting will toast someone who does not. The fact that they do choreographed fighting has no meaning whatsoever, the only disadvantage they are at is the fact they are probably not used to actually taking a full contact blow.

You put a 150lb newby in the ring with a 150lb 5 year Tai Chi practitioner and it's likely the Tai Chi guy will beat the newbys chakras out of alignment even though he's never done full contact and usually stands there looking at a lake in hammer pants.

i don't think i've seen any evidence of someone whose training has revolved primarily around kata being able to fight, even against the untrained. having muscle memory doesn't mean much if your brain doesn't know what to do with those muscle memories....after all even miyagi had to explain the movements to daniel-san...sorry just had too...

i played pretend dragon ball z as a kid punching and kicking air at invisible bad guys for hours every day with my friend, is it thus your contention i was a martial artist or had an increased likelihood of winning a fight because i was building muscle memory from motions that are vaguely fight related?

@AndyMaBobs see above

 

[Woldog]

i don't think i've seen any evidence of someone whose training has revolved primarily around kata being able to fight, even against the untrained. having muscle memory doesn't mean much if your brain doesn't know what to do with those muscle memories....after all even miyagi had to explain the movements to daniel-san...sorry just had too...

i played pretend dragon ball z as a kid punching and kicking air at invisible bad guys for hours every day with my friend, is it thus your contention i was a martial artist or had an increased likelihood of winning a fight because i was building muscle memory from motions that are vaguely fight related?

@AndyMaBobs see above

Would you not agree, in an even sized fight that you the dragon ball z expert would have absolutely toasted the kid who played with yugioh cards?

 

[panamaican]

i don't think i've seen any evidence of someone whose training has revolved primarily around kata being able to fight, even against the untrained. having muscle memory doesn't mean much if your brain doesn't know what to do with those muscle memories....after all even miyagi had to explain the movements to daniel-san...sorry just had too...

i played pretend dragon ball z as a kid punching and kicking air at invisible bad guys for hours every day with my friend, is it thus your contention i was a martial artist or had an increased likelihood of winning a fight because i was building muscle memory from motions that are vaguely fight related?

@AndyMaBobs see above

I have to agree with @Woldog and @AndyMaBobs.

I'd take the person with just kata training over the untrained newb every time. And yes because of the muscle memory. Plenty of kata movements mirror actual fighting movements. If the kata champ has been training kata exclusively then the moment in a fight that his body finds itself in something that resembles a kata movement, muscle memory will move him into the next movement naturally. And over time, that's enough of an advantage over someone who doesn't have the muscle memory and has to figure out every movement in the moment.

 

[Woldog]

I have to agree with @Woldog and @AndyMaBobs.

I'd take the person with just kata training over the untrained newb every time. And yes because of the muscle memory. Plenty of kata movements mirror actual fighting movements. If the kata champ has been training kata exclusively then the moment in a fight that his body finds itself in something that resembles a kata movement, muscle memory will move him into the next movement naturally. And over time, that's enough of an advantage over someone who doesn't have the muscle memory and has to figure out every movement in the moment.

In this example though, aggression shines through. Two guys who haven't done contact sparring the one who is more willing to go forward and do damage is likely to take the win. But its subjective unless we can find two test subjects.

 

[Tayski]

I have to agree with @Woldog and @AndyMaBobs.

I'd take the person with just kata training over the untrained newb every time. And yes because of the muscle memory. Plenty of kata movements mirror actual fighting movements. If the kata champ has been training kata exclusively then the moment in a fight that his body finds itself in something that resembles a kata movement, muscle memory will move him into the next movement naturally. And over time, that's enough of an advantage over someone who doesn't have the muscle memory and has to figure out every movement in the moment.

There's that + generally people who train martial arts are a bit more aware of fighting techniques and combat in general.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I have to agree with @Woldog and @AndyMaBobs.

I'd take the person with just kata training over the untrained newb every time. And yes because of the muscle memory. Plenty of kata movements mirror actual fighting movements. If the kata champ has been training kata exclusively then the moment in a fight that his body finds itself in something that resembles a kata movement, muscle memory will move him into the next movement naturally. And over time, that's enough of an advantage over someone who doesn't have the muscle memory and has to figure out every movement in the moment.

because like, I don't need a thousand hours of sparring to know that I can probably punch someone in the face or snap kick them in the gut or the groin - I've just gotta work out my distance, and that's not the biggest hurdle when against joe average

 

[Woldog]

because like, I don't need a thousand hours of sparring to know that I can probably punch someone in the face or snap kick them in the gut or the groin - I've just gotta work out my distance, and that's not the biggest hurdle when against joe average

But what if your opponent had the power of god and Anime on their side?

 

[AndyMaBobs]

But what if your opponent had the power of god and Anime on their side?

I'd say that's a false equivalence, they wouldn't be joe average

 

[JohnPJones]

because like, I don't need a thousand hours of sparring to know that I can probably punch someone in the face or snap kick them in the gut or the groin - I've just gotta work out my distance, and that's not the biggest hurdle when against joe average

i mean it's a pretty big hurdle when the average joe swinging at you, and you've never had land a technique while someone is swinging at you...

 

[j123]

But what if your opponent had the power of god and Anime on their side?

Should be counted as a PED, so many times in the old testament / torah there are clear abuses of PEDs by the man upstairs

Samson getting natty PEDs to rip lions apart
Some old guy gets the PED to split oceans like its prime pussy
Some let me bang bro gets plot armor to commit genocide

like holy shit bro...

 

[AndyMaBobs]

i mean it's a pretty big hurdle when the average joe swinging at you, and you've never had land a technique while someone is swinging at you...

Here is my thing with that though, the hypothetical you're using, I genuinely do not believe exists.

I don't believe that a world champion performance artist has never sparred. The idea that they will have never had to land a technique in their life - nah, I don't believe that, a black belt in karate will have enough sparring experience to beat an untrained attacker

 

[JohnPJones]

Here is my thing with that though, the hypothetical you're using, I genuinely do not believe exists.

I don't believe that a world champion performance artist has never sparred. The idea that they will have never had to land a technique in their life - nah, I don't believe that, a black belt in karate will have enough sparring experience to beat an untrained attacker

i mean a legitimate black belt sure, but theres a lot of places that teach kata and that's about it. if sparring once a year makes people better at fighting awesome, but i really doubt it works that way. karate i dont believe that the average karate black belt could reliably defend themselves against an attacker..the average karate black belt trains in the average karate school, and the average karate school is complete bullshit. i'd be willing to bet the average head instructor at an ATA school (pretty good representation of an average karate school in the US i feel) couldn't reliably defend themselves from an attacker.

as a black belt in

 

[AndyMaBobs]

i mean a legitimate black belt sure, but theres a lot of places that teach kata and that's about it. if sparring once a year makes people better at fighting awesome, but i really doubt it works that way. karate i dont believe that the average karate black belt could reliably defend themselves against an attacker..the average karate black belt trains in the average karate school, and the average karate school is complete bullshit. i'd be willing to bet the average head instructor at an ATA school (pretty good representation of an average karate school in the US i feel) couldn't reliably defend themselves from an attacker.

as a black belt in

I think that's all relative, because you've now made the discussion about the US - I'm not from the US and the average karate school here is legitimate, same for Japan.

 

[Dexter]

I think that's all relative, because you've made it about the US - I'm not from the US and the average karate school here is legitimate, same for Japan.

Lol, he better not say something like “bullshit” about karate schools here, too. Fellas would gladly spar with anybody, and they are pretty legit .