wonderboy and kata for MMA

kata compared to shadowboxing has been discussed on here before, comparing kata to scripted shadow boxing.
Drilling/repeating things is beneficial, regardless if its kata, shadow boxing, bag, or pads. Repetition is what creates the muscle memory.
But we must remember, no philosophy no karate, there was no philosophy in this video. So I dont think we can even call this a kata. More like techniques demonstrated by karateka. Thus the people in this video that were able to repeat this kata, have not learned karate or a kata at all, they are merely repeating movements demonstrated by karateka.
additionally, the movements of this kata, are so complex, it is impossible for anyone to learn this kata, simply by watching this youtube tutorial video.
I mean learning MMA/MT/KB/Boxing techniques off a youtube tutorial video is possible, but kata from a tutorial video is impossible.

<Neil01>
Well, considering that's what both Thompson and his teacher said, it's an important thing to remember. The people in this video are being taught the philosophy behind what they're doing. Random people watching youtube videos often are not.
 
Here is my thoughts on kata at the moment, I've spoken about kata many times and my opinion often changes. Generally I say 'sure why not' I can see what it can be useful - but I also think that kata without bunkai is useless (though take that with a grain of salt) but I also wonder if bunkai as a concept makes kata irrelevant.

Would be interested for someone with a pyjama pants background to give their thoughts - because I approach everything from a full contact mindset
I wouldn't call kata without bunkai useless but it's certainly close to it.

One of the areas where I've always found kata very helpful is when I learn something new from outside karate. More often than not, I've trained the general body mechanics in a kata somewhere and so learning the new technique happens much faster than if I was starting from scratch physicall, including takedowns

I'm currently teaching my son (age 6) and we include kata in the curriculum. As I've said before, I like to teach fundamentals then kata then use the kata to set up the contact drills. In between the kata and the drills are the philosophies that underpin the movement patterns. How to move, how to think, etc.

I won't speak for anyone else but I like the results I see when we switch to a free flowing spar (very light contact for me, full contact for him).

Additionally, as Thompson referenced, body awareness is something that I think really improves from kata. None of which is to suggest that kata is the only, or even the best, way to teach it. But it is effective when coupled with proper instruction.
 
I wouldn't call kata without bunkai useless but it's certainly close to it.

One of the areas where I've always found kata very helpful is when I learn something new from outside karate. More often than not, I've trained the general body mechanics in a kata somewhere and so learning the new technique happens much faster than if I was starting from scratch physicall, including takedowns

I'm currently teaching my son (age 6) and we include kata in the curriculum. As I've said before, I like to teach fundamentals then kata then use the kata to set up the contact drills. In between the kata and the drills are the philosophies that underpin the movement patterns. How to move, how to think, etc.

I won't speak for anyone else but I like the results I see when we switch to a free flowing spar (very light contact for me, full contact for him).

Additionally, as Thompson referenced, body awareness is something that I think really improves from kata. None of which is to suggest that kata is the only, or even the best, way to teach it. But it is effective when coupled with proper instruction.
5-9 i think training should be largely kata, with drills, and point fighting, then at 10 start adding in light continuous sparring, getting harder around 13ish (about the age when school fights typically start getting more serious and kids start growing)
 
Well, considering that's what both Thompson and his teacher said, it's an important thing to remember. The people in this video are being taught the philosophy behind what they're doing. Random people watching youtube videos often are not.

Yeah people often forget my late coach is also a karate coach. He has produced good fighters which sparked my interest. I get it that your not truly learning karate without learning katas and philosophy, but that stuff isn't needed to learn the fighting techniques of karate and apply them in the ring. Its a well known fact many kyokushin fighters have easily transitioned to MT and done well. But a MT fighter easily transitioning to kyokushin is crazy talk. I don't like karate. I only like the fighting techniques of karateka.

The wai kru is very much a part of MT and its history. One could argue without learning the wai kru, your not truly learning muay thai, its tradition, history and philosophies.....but you don't need to learn how to cast spells to learn how to fight MT.
 
5-9 i think training should be largely kata, with drills, and point fighting, then at 10 start adding in light continuous sparring, getting harder around 13ish (about the age when school fights typically start getting more serious and kids start growing)
I mostly agree. My only divergence is that I think getting the feel of constant movement, ebb and flow is worth developing early. I once dabbled in capoeira and I thought that their free flow non-contact dance/spar thing was a really great way to learn to read and respond to other people's movements without taking any physical damage. So I use something similar to ground the lessons in the moment. So, we're free flowing but I might keep throwing movements that force him to move and defend a certain way. Constantly leave a strike extended until he picks up that's where he should counter. Or if he's just leaving his arm out, I'll tap him in the same place until he starts remembering to bring his arm back for defense. It's free flow but I'm still teaching the same things I covered from the kata.
 
Yeah people often forget my late coach is also a karate coach. He has produced good fighters which sparked my interest. I get it that your not truly learning karate without learning katas and philosophy, but that stuff isn't needed to learn the fighting techniques of karate and apply them in the ring. Its a well known fact many kyokushin fighters have easily transitioned to MT and done well. But a MT fighter easily transitioning to kyokushin is crazy talk. I don't like karate. I only like the fighting techniques of karateka.

The wai kru is very much a part of MT and its history. One could argue without learning the wai kru, your not truly learning muay thai, its tradition, history and philosophies.....but you don't need to learn how to cast spells to learn how to fight MT.
Sure, but you don't need to learn any specific martial art to learn how to fight. There are only so many punches and kicks that the human body can perform.
 
Sure, but you don't need to learn any specific martial art to learn how to fight. There are only so many punches and kicks that the human body can perform.

Right which is why i say at a high level kyokushin and MT are more similar than different. The whole top of the mountain vs bottom of the mountain concept by jesse enkamp.

theres still fighting/combat sports like boxing, no philosphy, no ritualistic dancing, etc.

its the whole concept of take what is useful reject what is useless, which is all relevant. Cross training boxing was helpful for my MT fighting, the bobbing and weaving of boxing, was useless for me and MT.

MT is helpful for MMA, but the tall/high stance of it is "useless"....the list goes on and on.
 
I wouldn't call kata without bunkai useless but it's certainly close to it.

One of the areas where I've always found kata very helpful is when I learn something new from outside karate. More often than not, I've trained the general body mechanics in a kata somewhere and so learning the new technique happens much faster than if I was starting from scratch physicall, including takedowns

I'm currently teaching my son (age 6) and we include kata in the curriculum. As I've said before, I like to teach fundamentals then kata then use the kata to set up the contact drills. In between the kata and the drills are the philosophies that underpin the movement patterns. How to move, how to think, etc.

I won't speak for anyone else but I like the results I see when we switch to a free flowing spar (very light contact for me, full contact for him).

Additionally, as Thompson referenced, body awareness is something that I think really improves from kata. None of which is to suggest that kata is the only, or even the best, way to teach it. But it is effective when coupled with proper instruction.
Body awareness definitely makes sense, I like kung fu forms and stances because they essentially act like moving yoga, but they tend to be quite bit more taxing for flexibility and balance than karate forms from what i've seen
 
Body awareness definitely makes sense, I like kung fu forms and stances because they essentially act like moving yoga, but they tend to be quite bit more taxing for flexibility and balance than karate forms from what i've seen
Yeah, I look at some of the kung fu forms and smh. Definitely not in my wheelhouse.
 
Right which is why i say at a high level kyokushin and MT are more similar than different. The whole top of the mountain vs bottom of the mountain concept by jesse enkamp.

theres still fighting/combat sports like boxing, no philosphy, no ritualistic dancing, etc.

its the whole concept of take what is useful reject what is useless, which is all relevant. Cross training boxing was helpful for my MT fighting, the bobbing and weaving of boxing, was useless for me and MT.

MT is helpful for MMA, but the tall/high stance of it is "useless"....the list goes on and on.
I don't disagree with the majority of what you've said. In my years, I've trained in Hung Gar, Capoeira, a small amount of MT and BJJ, some boxing, and karate as my mainstay. After a certain time, it's just "fighting". But I do think that in the early stages, one needs to understand the philosophy/principles of the martial art and you can't get that just from watching videos and copying movements. There certainly are videos where principles and philosophies are broken down and I don't think those are deficient in any way.

But if I was new to martial arts and start copying the clinch and teep from a Youtube video, I wouldn't claim that I'm learning MT. Or just because I copy Mike Tyson shadow boxing videos, I wouldn't say that I'm learning "the sweet science". I guess that's just me.
 
I don't disagree with the majority of what you've said. In my years, I've trained in Hung Gar, Capoeira, a small amount of MT and BJJ, some boxing, and karate as my mainstay. After a certain time, it's just "fighting". But I do think that in the early stages, one needs to understand the philosophy/principles of the martial art and you can't get that just from watching videos and copying movements. There certainly are videos where principles and philosophies are broken down and I don't think those are deficient in any way.

But if I was new to martial arts and start copying the clinch and teep from a Youtube video, I wouldn't claim that I'm learning MT. Or just because I copy Mike Tyson shadow boxing videos, I wouldn't say that I'm learning "the sweet science". I guess that's just me.
i spent a week at ATT Florida working alongside their striking coaches and especially with din Thomas. A couple things he said really resonated with me. “Sometimes we think about principle, Sometimes we think about technique”.

Its hard as martial artists because we all get so caught up in the martial that we lose the art. Sometimes what and why get lost because we are so focused on how. If that weird little flip kick to the guts is giving everyone in the room trouble then far be it from me to change the mechanics of it. Guys like wilder, Keith jardine, Ben askrin, Eddie abasolo- all different sports with world class talent and really funky styles.
 
I don't disagree with the majority of what you've said. In my years, I've trained in Hung Gar, Capoeira, a small amount of MT and BJJ, some boxing, and karate as my mainstay. After a certain time, it's just "fighting". But I do think that in the early stages, one needs to understand the philosophy/principles of the martial art and you can't get that just from watching videos and copying movements. There certainly are videos where principles and philosophies are broken down and I don't think those are deficient in any way.

But if I was new to martial arts and start copying the clinch and teep from a Youtube video, I wouldn't claim that I'm learning MT. Or just because I copy Mike Tyson shadow boxing videos, I wouldn't say that I'm learning "the sweet science". I guess that's just me.

I agree with you as well.

But if I was new to martial arts and start copying the clinch and teep from a Youtube video, I wouldn't claim that I'm learning MT. Or just because I copy Mike Tyson shadow boxing videos, I wouldn't say that I'm learning "the sweet science". I guess that's just me.

this part is true as well. But theres a difference between someone new to martial arts and someone with 20+ years of experience. I have learned and used karate fighting techniques from youtube videos.
 
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"how they include it in kata" how do they include it in kata exactly?

yeah kata world champs don't train to fight and i don't consider them martial artists, i consider them dancers.

I actually don't agree with this. While for me the purpose and intent of martial arts is to be good at fighting, + while I do sort of view kata as a dance. I still consider them martial artists, they just enjoy and express themselves through a different aspect of martial arts to me. I'd consider a kata world champ or taolu performer (which I find fascinating) to be as much of a martial artist as me, even if they're not in the ring
 
Yeah people often forget my late coach is also a karate coach. He has produced good fighters which sparked my interest. I get it that your not truly learning karate without learning katas and philosophy, but that stuff isn't needed to learn the fighting techniques of karate and apply them in the ring. Its a well known fact many kyokushin fighters have easily transitioned to MT and done well. But a MT fighter easily transitioning to kyokushin is crazy talk. I don't like karate. I only like the fighting techniques of karateka.

The wai kru is very much a part of MT and its history. One could argue without learning the wai kru, your not truly learning muay thai, its tradition, history and philosophies.....but you don't need to learn how to cast spells to learn how to fight MT.

One year later and you still don't understand that Karate isn't just a fight sport or ring sport. I wonder if you're just dumb or pretending to be dumb on purpose but either way it's sad to see. What's even sadder is that you can't seem to want to let go.

What is so hard to understand that Karate is one of those traditional martial arts with a proper long syllabus of techniques with their specific names that you need to demonstrate in the forms of kihon and kata and sometimes even bunkai for grading and especially for teaching?

There has been MT fighters fighting in Knockdown tournaments, nobody is saying that it's crazy talk other than you. What is crazy talk though is wanting to become a Karate instructor for some quick bucks from soccer mums while having 0 knowledge of the art itself, its techniques, its syllabus, its terms.

I'm not even interested in having useless back and forth with you again, so I'll just leave it here, since you either pretend not to get it or are too dumb to get it.
 
I actually don't agree with this. While for me the purpose and intent of martial arts is to be good at fighting, + while I do sort of view kata as a dance. I still consider them martial artists, they just enjoy and express themselves through a different aspect of martial arts to me. I'd consider a kata world champ or taolu performer (which I find fascinating) to be as much of a martial artist as me, even if they're not in the ring
for me it's not about if they compete in combat sports its the fact that they train to look pretty, not to fight, which is what martial arts is about.

even traditional 3K karate still has the kumite aspect of training. people who just compete in kata competition aren't training to fight and thus likely cannot fight. thus not martial artists to me.

the exception being those who had trained to fight, but for whatever reason can't safely do so any more (injury, age, etc.)
 
for me it's not about if they compete in combat sports its the fact that they train to look pretty, not to fight, which is what martial arts is about.

even traditional 3K karate still has the kumite aspect of training. people who just compete in kata competition aren't training to fight and thus likely cannot fight. thus not martial artists to me.

the exception being those who had trained to fight, but for whatever reason can't safely do so any more (injury, age, etc.)

Fight against who? More or less anyone can fight, just look at a pub brawl. :p Like, what qualifies as being able to fight for you? Because I would be very surprised if a taolu wushu champion didn't know how to fight. My reasoning being that though we think of what works in combat sports like MMA and kickboxing - that's different from fighting in of itself.

I was talking to a 19 year old who has started Muay Thai recently, he was laughing at wing chun saying it was useless for fighting and that he would beat them up. To which my response was, no, though it might look dumb and might not work against a seasoned thai boxer, that wing chun guy would absolutely kick his ass - because there's more to fighting than just the techniques you use or the context of combat sports.

My point mainly being that, those people training in kata competition, I can reasonably assume, didn't get to be world champions in kata through only kata practise alone, surely they would have had to do a lot of kumite along the way to get there - and if I were to discredit someone as a martial artist because they didn't 'fight' - I don't consider point based karate competition to be a fight either, so I would have to discount them as martial artists too.

I don't discount them as martial artists, but I hope you can see why I don't like the idea of saying someone is or isn't a martial artist based on my own personal value in how they compete or express their style.
 
I agree with you as well.



this part is true as well. But theres a difference between someone new to martial arts and someone with 20+ years of experience. I have learned and used karate fighting techniques from youtube videos.
We're going to go around in circles here. You learned a new kick or a new punch or defense or whatever. You learned it from watching karatekas. That's true.

But if you didn't learn the "why" along with the "how", I wouldn't say that you've learned karate fighting techniques. I would say that you learned a new technique, influenced/inspired by karate.
 
One year later and you still don't understand that Karate isn't just a fight sport or ring sport. I wonder if you're just dumb or pretending to be dumb on purpose but either way it's sad to see. What's even sadder is that you can't seem to want to let go.

What is so hard to understand that Karate is one of those traditional martial arts with a proper long syllabus of techniques with their specific names that you need to demonstrate in the forms of kihon and kata and sometimes even bunkai for grading and especially for teaching?

There has been MT fighters fighting in Knockdown tournaments, nobody is saying that it's crazy talk other than you. What is crazy talk though is wanting to become a Karate instructor for some quick bucks from soccer mums while having 0 knowledge of the art itself, its techniques, its syllabus, its terms.

I'm not even interested in having useless back and forth with you again, so I'll just leave it here, since you either pretend not to get it or are too dumb to get it.

Just like you I recently competed in a kumite death match in the forest. I got nothing to prove so I'm not sharing any pics....just like you ;)
 
We're going to go around in circles here. You learned a new kick or a new punch or defense or whatever. You learned it from watching karatekas. That's true.

But if you didn't learn the "why" along with the "how", I wouldn't say that you've learned karate fighting techniques. I would say that you learned a new technique, influenced/inspired by karate.

But I did learn the why and how. The why is to have them accustomed to your movement so they don't react to it. The how is by showing the move a time or two prior to throwing it.

I like this guys channel and this is the specific technique I am speaking of.

 
Just like you I recently competed in a kumite death match in the forest. I got nothing to prove so I'm not sharing any pics....just like you ;)

Nice change of topic here.

Are you actually asking me for pics?

What a weird way to ask someone to post videos of their fights. People who matter to me on this forum have seen my fights, unlike you I'm not the type of attention whore who tries to get online approval at every opportunity.

The problem is that every argument you're losing turns into "I've had some fights and it's on youtube, where are your fights" while completely ignoring that some people on this forum are better fighters than you or have more experience than you, but more importantly ignoring the valid points they're making.

I hate to break it to you but for someone who considers himself a pro fighter and brags about it, you're not even good in Muay Thai. That shit I've seen of you is literally amateur level here in Europe.
 
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