wonderboy and kata for MMA

[shinkyoku]

I have said this before and I say it again.
Formal trad kata by itself is a waste of time for any purpose except perfecting formal trad kata. And if that is your goal, fine!
Formal trad kata with proper realistic bunkai (not the all too common obvious unrealistic junk) and then drilling it in sparring (as close to free as possible) is very useful -But very few do the first and hardly any of them do the latter. And really, out of that the formal kata is by far the least important part if you want to be able to actually use the stuff against a non-compliant opponent.

As a method of skill transmission Kata has failed completely (if it had not we would not have had this discussion over and over again). As it is most who look to kata&bunkai for techniques are usually forced to look to other arts (judo and jujutsu usually as a huge chunk of the skills covered in kata closely resembles skills common there) for explanations and finer points in execution of the skill and stuff found.

As a method of cardiovascular training, kata is... ok but not nearly as effective as the alternatives.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I have said this before and I say it again.
Formal trad kata by itself is a waste of time for any purpose except perfecting formal trad kata. And if that is your goal, fine!
Formal trad kata with proper realistic bunkai (not the all too common obvious unrealistic junk) and then drilling it in sparring (as close to free as possible) is very useful -But very few do the first and hardly any of them do the latter. And really, out of that the formal kata is by far the least important part if you want to be able to actually use the stuff against a non-compliant opponent.

As a method of skill transmission Kata has failed completely (if it had not we would not have had this discussion over and over again). As it is most who look to kata&bunkai for techniques are usually forced to look to other arts (judo and jujutsu usually as a huge chunk of the skills covered in kata closely resembles skills common there) for explanations and finer points in execution of the skill and stuff found.

As a method of cardiovascular training, kata is... ok but not nearly as effective as the alternatives.

This was sort of what I suspected

 

[shincheckin]

I disagree with that. Depends on the kata and whether your Karate instructor is worth his/her salt.

If you instructor isn't particularly good you'll learn nothing beyond looking fancy - if he/she is good you'll learn what you're suppose to.

I'd argue that kata are actually important especially for beginners as they introduce karate techniques - more so how you transition into and out of techniques.

They're good at teaching fundamentals for example how to use your weight/footwork when punching moving forward. Sounds simple enough for us - but I'm sure we've all seen beginners struggle with something as simple as that.

It is a way to collect/remember techniques but it's also a record of how to transition into/out of techniques and how to apply certain techniques.

What books can't teach you is a feel for the techniques - physically kata does. They are a great method of recording techniques imo provided the person learning them knows what they are for. They are rigid but I think this is done on purpose - so that the person learning it doesn't add his own flair to the transition/techniques until they've been learnt. It also stops practitioners from adding their own flavour to a kata - so as not to dilute the techniques/transitions (i.e. leave it untainted so that the next person in the chain can add their own flair instead of inherit one).

Apart from that yes gi with loads of logos/designs look trashy.

I'd say Thompson is reminiscent of PKA karate than kickboxing.





Are you still salty bro lol?
It was ages ago....

Regarding your statements above, people seem to forget my coach, is also a karate coach. He said many of the same things in your quote above.

no philosophy no karate, i get it. Philosophy isnt needed to pull effective techniques from it. "take what is useful, reject what is useless"

Just pointing out how suddenly, kata can be learned from a video, where as ages ago, it would have been repeating scripted movements demonstrated by karateka <Lmaoo>

yeah ill always be salty. That incident made me not like many, and many not like me.

then you got people claiming to have competed, wont post pics cause "they have nothing to prove"....actually you have everything to prove.......otherwise their just another keyboard warrior that won the kumite death match in the bamboo forest....well shit....I have competed in karate too then. Ancient secret dragon code of honor forbids pics.

 

[CFGroup]

I have said this before and I say it again.
Formal trad kata by itself is a waste of time for any purpose except perfecting formal trad kata. And if that is your goal, fine!
Formal trad kata with proper realistic bunkai (not the all too common obvious unrealistic junk) and then drilling it in sparring (as close to free as possible) is very useful -But very few do the first and hardly any of them do the latter. And really, out of that the formal kata is by far the least important part if you want to be able to actually use the stuff against a non-compliant opponent.

As a method of skill transmission Kata has failed completely (if it had not we would not have had this discussion over and over again). As it is most who look to kata&bunkai for techniques are usually forced to look to other arts (judo and jujutsu usually as a huge chunk of the skills covered in kata closely resembles skills common there) for explanations and finer points in execution of the skill and stuff found.

As a method of cardiovascular training, kata is... ok but not nearly as effective as the alternatives.

I think we're talking about right now when schools are closed and we can't spar/roll/Randori.

I know my slow/medium/fast Tai Chi is "effective"...effective at warming up, building elasticity and speed, but I'm sure I'd be a heretic by real practitioners. I'm not under the illusion that Kata will build "fighting capability" and that's not what Thompson says at the start of the clip. There was a MMA "form" by Jesse Enkamp posted a while back that replicated a dozen or so situations you'd face in the ring. It was kinda hokey, but it was built by someone who's faced those situations against a "non compliant opponent"

My take is most of the TMA "forms" are so passed down they have been interpreted so much they don't represent a "real encounter". The point I think I was trying to make earlier is full contact sparring has paired down the "effective" techniques to a half a dozen, so my shadow "form" is just a few free flowing techniques recombined as many times as I can. I know that Judo Randori has been culled down, I remember TKD is like that, so yeah, methodically going through complex "Kata" forms is "a waste of time" if you're only focused on "sparring/rolling/Randori" applications and not refining movement, foot position in relationship with hips and shoulders to generate power, elasticity at odd angles and stances, and a basic overall conditioning to complement "real effectiveness"...sport based sparring...
Hey it's the best we can work with right now and stay safe!

 

[Mcmoon]

This a Judoka interpretation.... We / I have been made aware of kata being a formal part of Judo.... IMHO, however, I am not interested in Judo kata; nor do I feel kata is important for Judo.

I think at higher ranks it may be required but as far as I know for our dojo it is not a formal testing requirement.

My club isn't super formal but we do have to do kata for shodan. This is the only thing I need to do to get my blackbelt. It is more just tradition at this point. My instructor says it doesn't even have to be great but I just need to be able to demonstrate it.

 

[JohnPJones]

Yeah bunkai is what I was thinking of, in that it took a kata and drilled the application.

What do you think of Ashihara kata, which is more like scripted shadowboxing:

to me it's the same thing as every other kata, just different timing, and rhythm to it. katas will look different from dojo to dojo in the same organization/franchise because as time goes on peoples' own preferred timing and rhythm seeps into and takes over from what they were taught, and then thats how they teach it.

 

[JohnPJones]

Yeah sorry my responsibility for derailing the thread. I have a Karate / Judo background and we never had these stickers and no Karate org in Japan have them nowadays as far as I know.

Others have described why this goes directly against the core of japanese TMA.



I do. And? It originates in parts in Karate. Still it has developed into a different ma were fights play out different. Just watch Karate fights nowadays in Japan and then KB fights. Thompson is more of a KB fighter.

But if you see that different I have no problem with it. No matter his fighting origin he is a great inspiration and has a unique impressive skillset.

"kartae fights" what do you mean by that? kyokushin? light contact kickboxing(the formal title of point fighting), karate combat, or goju kai, or IGKO?

 

[JohnPJones]

From when I was 5 years old till I was 13 years old I did Karate.

So, I have done a lot of Kata's.

I think that they are a waste of time.

glad you made your decision based off of your experience as a child weird how fighters at the top levels with a karate background still find benefit in kata.

 

[Brandon Robinson]

kata compared to shadowboxing has been discussed on here before, comparing kata to scripted shadow boxing.
Drilling/repeating things is beneficial, regardless if its kata, shadow boxing, bag, or pads. Repetition is what creates the muscle memory.
But we must remember, no philosophy no karate, there was no philosophy in this video. So I dont think we can even call this a kata. More like techniques demonstrated by karateka. Thus the people in this video that were able to repeat this kata, have not learned karate or a kata at all, they are merely repeating movements demonstrated by karateka.
additionally, the movements of this kata, are so complex, it is impossible for anyone to learn this kata, simply by watching this youtube tutorial video.
I mean learning MMA/MT/KB/Boxing techniques off a youtube tutorial video is possible, but kata from a tutorial video is impossible.

Sure repeatedly drilling things is great, the problem with Kata is 99 percent of the time it's filled with unrealistic dance moves with no bearing on reality

 

[JohnPJones]

Sure repeatedly drilling things is great, the problem with Kata is 99 percent of the time it's filled with unrealistic dance moves with no bearing on reality

really? would you care to provide an example of some of those unrealistic dance moves from a traditional okinawan kata?

 

[JohnPJones]

an after thought.
Thompson mentions the body mechanics but i don't recall him specifying the usefulness of kata for stances. i know a lot of people think karate stances are all a load of BS, but pause any MMA fight when a fighter is advancing, or retreating and you're almost guaranteed to see something that resembles a karate stance, and dachi if i'm not mistaken translates more to step, rather than stance so karate stances aren't really stances and surely aren't intended to be a static method of standing.

 

[Azam]

an after thought.
Thompson mentions the body mechanics but i don't recall him specifying the usefulness of kata for stances. i know a lot of people think karate stances are all a load of BS, but pause any MMA fight when a fighter is advancing, or retreating and you're almost guaranteed to see something that resembles a karate stance, and dachi if i'm not mistaken translates more to step, rather than stance so karate stances aren't really stances and surely aren't intended to be a static method of standing.

Kata's are always about transitional movements not static movements. They're less about static stances and more about how to transition into/out of techniques using stances which are meant to be transitional movements.

A static stance is just a snap shot of a transitional movement.

That's why I think they are very useful for beginners.

Take the taikyoku katas in Kyokushin - they teach beginners how to throw straight punches properly - using zenkutsu dachi. The movements are exaggerated but this imo is to enforce the lesson that when you want to punch forward you should to do so with your weight mostly forward (70/30). Being forced to stick to a rigid pattern/form like that can enforce these lessons through muscle memory. Rigidness is a good way to enforce lessons in beginners - it stops deviation and laxness. That's why I personally feel kata is so rigid.

Kata isn't designed by nature to help you with sparring preparation or fights. It a training tool that helps develop basics - is it the only tool - no.

Of course kata is not just about transitional movements but application during those movements too.

The problem in Karate is there are many instructors who have no idea about kata - I'd say the vast majority (many don't want to be seen as being clueless about it - so just resort to teaching basic movements in a dance like sequence). Finding an instructor that knows what he is talking about in regards to kata is not common.

I think as well that some styles do a very poor job of teaching kata in general compared to other styles. The okinawan styles imo have a better handle on what kata are as opposed to styles like Shotokan, Kyokushin and others.

Of course I use to think kata were dumb once upon a time - my instructors weren't clued up about it like many. It's only when you research and take time that you learn where it's useful and where it isn't.

 

[Azam]

@JohnPJones something you might find interesting -

 

[shincheckin]

Sure repeatedly drilling things is great, the problem with Kata is 99 percent of the time it's filled with unrealistic dance moves with no bearing on reality

If you dig hard enough into any martial art, you can find things that are transferable to fighting, even tai chi for example. That being said, as a MT fighter, looking to learn and take fighting techniques from karate to apply inside the MT ring, something like kata never interested me. If one wants to truly learn and dive deep into karate than you should learn katas. My MT coach is also a karate coach. Unlike most combat sports enthusiasts im open minded enough to see benefits from TMAs like karate and TKD. theres many different styles of karate, the only one that interested me that I spent anytime learning is kyokushin, however at a high level I feel that kyokushin and MT are more similar than they are different. anyways long story short, if your only interest is fighting, i dont that kata is needed.

 

[Inquisitus]

I think we're talking about right now when schools are closed and we can't spar/roll/Randori.

I know my slow/medium/fast Tai Chi is "effective"...effective at warming up, building elasticity and speed, but I'm sure I'd be a heretic by real practitioners. I'm not under the illusion that Kata will build "fighting capability" and that's not what Thompson says at the start of the clip. There was a MMA "form" by Jesse Enkamp posted a while back that replicated a dozen or so situations you'd face in the ring. It was kinda hokey, but it was built by someone who's faced those situations against a "non compliant opponent"

My take is most of the TMA "forms" are so passed down they have been interpreted so much they don't represent a "real encounter". The point I think I was trying to make earlier is full contact sparring has paired down the "effective" techniques to a half a dozen, so my shadow "form" is just a few free flowing techniques recombined as many times as I can. I know that Judo Randori has been culled down, I remember TKD is like that, so yeah, methodically going through complex "Kata" forms is "a waste of time" if you're only focused on "sparring/rolling/Randori" applications and not refining movement, foot position in relationship with hips and shoulders to generate power, elasticity at odd angles and stances, and a basic overall conditioning to complement "real effectiveness"...sport based sparring...
Hey it's the best we can work with right now and stay safe!

Doesn't sound any different than shadowboxing, which IMO, is a more effective tool for self training than kata.

At least in traditional Japanese karate, the syllabus is kihon (basic techniques), kumite (sparring/sparring drills) , and kata. All fundamental techniques are done in kihon and can be learned and applied in the different grades of kumite. Then there is kata which is the repository of all techniques in a style. But to learn to apply those techniques outside of the basics, you need to practice bunkai (application). You have to do the first three before you get the bunkai. It's like why even do kata instead of breaking down the complete set of techniques in partner drills then put together in your own kata.

I think that's what shinkyoku meant in his post.

In comparison to judo (and correct me if I'm wrong as I've never done judo) , it sounds like judo kata are a curated distillation of all techniques that can be applied in drills and randori. Karate kata aren't the same at all, they're generally "inherited" from the lineage.

 

[CFGroup]

Doesn't sound any different than shadowboxing, which IMO, is a more effective tool for self training than kata.

At least in traditional Japanese karate, the syllabus is kihon (basic techniques), kumite (sparring/sparring drills) , and kata. All fundamental techniques are done in kihon and can be learned and applied in the different grades of kumite. Then there is kata which is the repository of all techniques in a style. But to learn to apply those techniques outside of the basics, you need to practice bunkai (application). You have to do the first three before you get the bunkai. It's like why even do kata instead of breaking down the complete set of techniques in partner drills then put together in your own kata.

I think that's what shinkyoku meant in his post.

In comparison to judo (and correct me if I'm wrong as I've never done judo) , it sounds like judo kata are a curated distillation of all techniques that can be applied in drills and randori. Karate kata aren't the same at all, they're generally "inherited" from the lineage.

Yeah I miss read at 4:30am before training.

My take, and as you pointed out, is yes, sport MA including Judo have culled down a set of techniques to fit a rule set in each case. For striking there's a ton of overlap...shit I can't remember what thread this is..Oh yeah the Kata...so MT/Kyo/KB will have many of the same techniques. Same for Judo/Wrestling/BJJ. Those arts are now based on a agreement not to kill or maim, to start and stop at a time not determine by the competitors and so on.

Shit I'm rambling...oh...Judo "Kata" is more single technique, re set, single technique re set so it's easier to eliminate the re sets and train them free flow where as striking Kata are more formalized and follow a linear progression. One of my long down times from injury I re learned a bunch of old TKD forms, worked out the attacks and counters of the imaginary opponent-I had a shitload of free time-and then started recombining the techniques for different scenario's. Got fluid with that and as I healed and was getting ready to get back on the mat, took up Judo "shadow Uchikomi" with the same idea.

IKn, twenty plus years of training various arts, and being trained by multiple lineage Dan/Gup holders-and staunch traditionalists, but that's Dojo politics I avoid-who make a point of teaching the commonalities between arts as strengths to build multiple applications, I start to bastardize and recombined and try it on the mat with them.

I still train "Kata" but they've got a ton of Judo, Goshin, Jujitsu, Kyo/KB/TKD in them which is the point after mastering-u never really do-the basics.

Sry for the ramble...

 

[listrahtes]

really? would you care to provide an example of some of those unrealistic dance moves from a traditional okinawan kata?

Age Uke f.e. . A good idea as technique and I am sure the original intent was transfered from real fighting. Nowadays no one I met in Karate ( and that was up to japanese elite instructors from Shotokan Association) could implement it in sparring. NO ONE

Just watch Karate world championships in many associactions. They do oi zuki, mae geri sometimes mawashi and thats it with at most times very basic footwork. Now compare that to boxing undarm blocks. Its basically age uke in some parts but a million times more refined because its not a fixed static movement because some jerk in japan said so 200 years ago but a fluid movement developed through elite boxers in fighting. Have to agree with the other people here. If you want to develop real martial arts fighting skills kata in Karate is a waste of time and I loved doing kata but well I also like dancing.
Everything else is more of a circle jerk.

 

[JohnPJones]

Age Uke f.e. . A good idea as technique and I am sure the original intent was transfered from real fighting. Nowadays no one I met in Karate ( and that was up to japanese elite instructors from Shotokan Association) could implement it in sparring. NO ONE

Just watch Karate world championships in many associactions. They do oi zuki, mae geri sometimes mawashi and thats it with at most times very basic footwork. Now compare that to boxing undarm blocks. Its basically age uke in some parts but a million times more refined because its not a fixed static movement because some jerk in japan said so 200 years ago but a fluid movement developed through elite boxers in fighting. Have to agree with the other people here. If you want to develop real martial arts fighting skills kata in Karate is a waste of time and I loved doing kata but well I also like dancing.
Everything else is more of a circle jerk.

well that largely depends...were they doing it with the intent of a block? a huge portion of people who train and teach have a misunderstanding of what uke techniques mean. they are not blocks, the closest translation in english is to receive, so you're receiving an attack, but it's not a block.

your post is like saying hikite is unrealistic because no one actually does that when punching.

 

[listrahtes]

your post is like saying hikite is unrealistic because no one actually does that when punching.

My post is saying that if you include Age Uke in sparring like you learn it in Kata you get your clock cleaned no matter how good you are. Its like a boxer doing Tango dance moves to attack (would look very cool ) . And if not even elite karateka who live for their martial art can implement it, its not worth it but dead weight. In boxing dead weight gets killed and end of story, in karate because someone made a picture 100years ago and some Soke says so you have to learn it like that no matter how silly. Its static / persisting instead of fluid & growing.

Contrary to MT or boxing were this block has continued to live through the ages in real fight implementation and because of that is refined, working and an important aspect of these arts. in Karate the front and side kicks never lost implementation in fighting and because of that their inclusion into Kata can be transfered into sparring situations.

We can still practice it because it looks nice and feels nice (and impresses the girls) but it has no value for fighting and in my book thats were martial art orgininates and gets its philosophical context.

Annother "proof" Kata world champs are in near every case not even remotely as good in sparring / fighting. Its really annother MA and in my book its a dancing style. A style I sometimes like very much (practiced Yang Tai Chi many years) and in some cases like Karate its too silly for my taste but everyone should be happy with what he likes .

 

[JohnPJones]

My post is saying that if you include Age Uke in sparring like you learn it in Kata you get your clock cleaned no matter how good you are. Its like a boxer doing Tango dance moves to attack (would look very cool ) . And if not even elite karateka who live for their martial art can implement it, its not worth it but dead weight. In boxing dead weight gets killed and end of story, in karate because someone made a picture 100years ago and some Soke says so you have to learn it like that no matter how silly. Its static / persisting instead of fluid & growing.

Contrary to MT or boxing were this block has continued to live through the ages in real fight implementation and because of that is refined, working and an important aspect of these arts. in Karate the front and side kicks never lost implementation in fighting and because of that their inclusion into Kata can be transfered into sparring situations.

We can still practice it because it looks nice and feels nice (and impresses the girls) but it has no value for fighting and in my book thats were martial art orgininates and gets its philosophical context.

Annother "proof" Kata world champs are in near every case not even remotely as good in sparring / fighting. Its really annother MA and in my book its a dancing style. A style I sometimes like very much (practiced Yang Tai Chi many years) and in some cases like Karate its too silly for my taste but everyone should be happy with what he likes .

"how they include it in kata" how do they include it in kata exactly?

yeah kata world champs don't train to fight and i don't consider them martial artists, i consider them dancers.