wing chun or muy thai for self defense

[HumanBender]

Krav Maga teaches you how to hand over your wallet and thats about it.

Get him into Muay Thai.

qft

Alot of tma's and self defense courses are giving students dangerous false confidence that can get them killed in the streets.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

wow, i wonder why a tma practitioner doesn't like bullshido and claims that only kids go there

well because the latter is true for the most part?

 

[D Train]

MT > WC in every way imaginable.

 

[SAAMAG]

well because the latter is true for the most part?

The intent of the website is good but the mentality of that place is what drives most people away. It's full of people who only go on there to talk shit for the most part. The irony is that their very own "throw downs" and challenge matches actually expose how much shit-talk they throw around without the skills to back it up.

But then again most of the individuals that feed the site don't have any real martial arts experience let alone fight experience, and merely jump on the tough-guy bandwagon parroting off whatever it is that they read a majority of the clueless adhere to. There are a couple guys there that know what they're doing but are few and far between.

In the end all that matters is what type of mentality and intellect do you want to be surrounded by? Immature, dick measuring, shit talking, bandwagon-parroting drones or people who can think for themselves and have a sense of maturity?

I get everything I need about the sport fight scene here and with far less idiocy of people talking out their ass about things they know nothing about. Though there are a few as made evident by this thread (see above).

 

[mjw1]

MT > WC in every way imaginable.

I've never really trained MT to compare though I can say there was a MT guy that I sparred with and held my own with very much so. In fact he joined my WC gym so something must have impressed him......

 

[SAAMAG]

I've never really trained MT to compare though I can say there was a MT guy that I sparred with and held my own with very much so. In fact he joined my WC gym so something must have impressed him......

I wouldn't worry about what the guy posts. He doesn't practice wing chun for certain and more than likely doesn't practice muay thai either except for on the internet. As such he has no base to stand on.

There are a number of factors that play into your experience when you worked with the muay thai fighter. General knowledge of your respective systems, application skill, training methodology, your mentality at the time, and even something as trivial as what you ate that day. The majority of that outcome though, more than likely has to do with how you trained...because how you train is how you fight.

This is the problem with most wing chun curriculums...they don't train to fight but instead they train to tradition. Chi sao has taken over in a radical way, drilling is done lightheartedly, "application" training isn't done realistically. Basically training to fight was lost when wing chun fighters stopped sparring and testing their wing chun. As such it is highly watered down and we've got a bunch of grandmasters running around with ZERO fighting experience.

It's easy to fix this for yourself though. GO OUT AND TEST your wing chun. Make it a priority to drill in live ways, spar (a lot) against people that DO NOT practice wing chun, condition yourself to fight, hit the heavy bag, shadowbox, and etc. There are proven methods for training to fight and these methods aren't exclusive to any one fighting style. Doing this will allow you to understand your system's strengths, weaknesses, and your own opportunities for improvements based on the threats that you're practicing against.

 

[Nefron]

OK, so I'm ignorant. Could you please name some elite WC practitioners and link to their sparring/fighting videos?

You presume to know something about my MA experience so we will play it your way. Please show me good WC.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

OK, so I'm ignorant. Could you please name some elite WC practitioners and link to their sparring/fighting videos?

You presume to know something about my MA experience so we will play it your way. Please show me good WC.

What for? You'll just dismiss it and babble on with "you think -insert martial art here you dont like or train in- is valid" over and over again like you did with me and the TKD thread.

 

[SAAMAG]

OK, so I'm ignorant. Could you please name some elite WC practitioners and link to their sparring/fighting videos?

You presume to know something about my MA experience so we will play it your way. Please show me good WC.

I don't think. I know based on what you write. All you do is dismiss things that the bandwagon says is not effective in MMA. You if you had first hand knowledge of the things you dismiss you wouldn't dismiss them so easily.

It's as simple as that. I've train in both muay thai and wing chun. Ironically from Leg's post I also trained TKD for many years. I can use things from all three effectively in sparring. Can you say the same?

 

[Nefron]

Can you say the same?

If I said yes, I'm pretty sure you would dismiss it. Your appeal to authority is weak. Can you provide proof of your experience and skills? No? Then don't mention it like it means something in this discussion.

Now, If you can please point me to who you think is WC elite and their sparring, fight, whatever footage.

Edit: For the record, I'm far from being a fanboy of MT. I enjoy learning and using "unorthodox" things.

 

[vorpal_]

If I said yes, I'm pretty sure you would dismiss it. Your appeal to authority is weak. Can you provide proof of your experience and skills? No? Then don't mention it like it means something in this discussion.

Now, If you can please point me to who you think is WC elite and their sparring, fight, whatever footage.

Edit: For the record, I'm far from being a fanboy of MT. I enjoy learning and using "unorthodox" things.

i'd like to see some videos of what people what call good wc too. all i've found around youtube is people practicing parrying at around 30% with no protective equipment at all

 

[vorpal_]

The intent of the website is good but the mentality of that place is what drives most people away. It's full of people who only go on there to talk shit for the most part. The irony is that their very own "throw downs" and challenge matches actually expose how much shit-talk they throw around without the skills to back it up.

i'm looking at some of these throw down videos and i don't really get it. don't these guys talk shit about tma? it looks like most of them train in tmas

sherdog is essentially the same thing anyway, except instead of shit talking styles you shit talk fighters and make outrageous claims about your favorite fighter

 

[SAAMAG]

If I said yes, I'm pretty sure you would dismiss it. Your appeal to authority is weak. Can you provide proof of your experience and skills? No? Then don't mention it like it means something in this discussion.

Now, If you can please point me to who you think is WC elite and their sparring, fight, whatever footage.

Edit: For the record, I'm far from being a fanboy of MT. I enjoy learning and using "unorthodox" things.

My experience in both styles quite relevant to the conversation since we're talking about those specific styles. If you said you did do both styles as well, I wouldn't dismiss it. I would ask you more about what you learned in your training and that would provide insight as to why you think the way you do, as one's attitude is formed by his or her own experiences.

There's a few guys I know that do well with wing chun, though their names wouldn't do much good to you. Some I personally know, others are well known for their fighting exploits: Nico Lahood, Scott Baker, Francis Fong, Wang Zhi Peng, Duncan Leung, Wong Shun Leung.

There...feel any different now? NO? I didn't think so. There's little footeage of wing chun out there that's worth a shit. Probably because (1) there's a lot of shitty wing chun out there and (2) most of the good people focus on their training as opposed to showboating on video to profess their skills. I know when I go to train the first thing in my gym bag is my mouthpiece and not a video camera.

So from your perspective though, since you know enough to pass judgement -- what specifically do you like about muay thai training versus the specific training you received in wing chun?

 

[SAAMAG]

i'm looking at some of these throw down videos and i don't really get it. don't these guys talk shit about tma? it looks like most of them train in tmas

sherdog is essentially the same thing anyway, except instead of shit talking styles you shit talk fighters and make outrageous claims about your favorite fighter

Notice in my post that you quoted I didn't say that they talk shit about TMA's. I said they talk shit without the skills to back it up. Most the most vocal shit-talkers there don't even train more than 1 time a week if that.

 

[vorpal_]

i wasn't implying that you had said that. i was under the impression that they talked shit about tma partly because of the name and partly because they have videos making fun of a lot of tma

 

[Nefron]

There's a few guys I know that do well with wing chun, though their names wouldn't do much good to you. Some I personally know, others are well known for their fighting exploits: Nico Lahood, Scott Baker, Francis Fong, Wang Zhi Peng, Duncan Leung, Wong Shun Leung.

There...feel any different now? NO? I didn't think so. There's little footeage of wing chun out there that's worth a shit. Probably because (1) there's a lot of shitty wing chun out there and (2) most of the good people focus on their training as opposed to showboating on video to profess their skills. I know when I go to train the first thing in my gym bag is my mouthpiece and not a video camera.

And how exactly are those guys known for their fighting exploits? What is the reason you can't find good WC on video? I'm talking about elite guys, masters. Are you telling me that there are no videos of those guys using their skills anywhere? For a style that is popular as WC that seems a little odd.

So from your perspective though, since you know enough to pass judgement -- what specifically do you like about muay thai training versus the specific training you received in wing chun?

I haven't received any formal training in WC. That doesn't mean I can't tell shit from non shit. There is a WC club in my area and its utter shit. I don't even think of trying that.

You have the right idea about training. Pressure testing, sparring, fighting. Not just under the ruleset that leaves you in your comfort zone, but also against fighters of different styles.

Now, I have seen quite a lot of guys who pressure test their WC. Either its extremely light contact, or it breaks down and looks like shitty kickboxing, retard flailing with an occasional chain punch burst. I still haven't seen WC that looks good under pressure.

IMHO its a deeply flawed system, that can be somewhat effective if practiced right, but it will still hinder your progress as a fighter.

What elements of WC you found useful in your MT training?

Notice in my post that you quoted I didn't say that they talk shit about TMA's. I said they talk shit without the skills to back it up. Most the most vocal shit-talkers there don't even train more than 1 time a week if that.

Well, yes, but the retard shit talkers aren't the respected members of the community. Everyone can tell that they are retards, and pretty much noone takes them seriously.

Hell, one guy recently even got his ass kicked by a chunner who he called out. The chunner outweighted him heavily and had a ton of experience advantage. He still looked like shit, but it was more than enough to lay a beating on the retard.

The throwdown is a meating of Bullshido members who vary in skill from complete begginers to experienced fighters.

 

[narthus]

MT no question, look at the combat arts used in mma, 99% of other martial arts are completely ineffective in real combat

 

[SAAMAG]

And how exactly are those guys known for their fighting exploits? What is the reason you can't find good WC on video? I'm talking about elite guys, masters. Are you telling me that there are no videos of those guys using their skills anywhere? For a style that is popular as WC that seems a little odd.

They've all got actual fighting experience in real fights testing their wing chun. Some I've felt first hand. Others are accounts made by other eyewitnesses and have been documented.

I can't tell you why most wing chun folks don't worry about video footage. One insight might be cultural, because the chinese culture often times two well known "masters" would have fought/tested behind closed doors. The outcomes weren't to be displayed as to not have one master lose face. That's a cultural thing. Others I would presume simply don't care. They don't test themselves for other's enjoyment and have no reason to film it. The reason MMA fights, thai fights, boxing, and so forth get filmed is because they're forms of entertainment.

The wing chun guys that DO film often times ARE doing it for recognition. Something most TMA guys learn not to do. Perhaps there's still something about humility as well. Just because you don't see fights happening, doesn't mean they're not happening.

I haven't received any formal training in WC. That doesn't mean I can't tell shit from non shit. There is a WC club in my area and its utter shit. I don't even think of trying that.

That's a good point. You can look at someone and know straight away whether or not they know what's going on. I wouldn't train at my local commercial wing chun places either outside of Nico's place. That's because Nico brings in people from MMA and Muay Thai to learn and test on.

You have the right idea about training. Pressure testing, sparring, fighting. Not just under the ruleset that leaves you in your comfort zone, but also against fighters of different styles.

I've done enough fighting to know what worked and what didn't. Proper training methods are universal and should supersede tradition if your goal is to fight. Though I do retain the forms and weapons for cultural and basic conditioning reasons. There's more to kung fu than just going in and bashing folks.

Now, I have seen quite a lot of guys who pressure test their WC. Either its extremely light contact, or it breaks down and looks like shitty kickboxing, retard flailing with an occasional chain punch burst. I still haven't seen WC that looks good under pressure.

IMHO its a deeply flawed system, that can be somewhat effective if practiced right, but it will still hinder your progress as a fighter.

Like I said, you're entitled to that opinion. I personally don't think the system is flawed because the system is sound and it works. A punch is a punch and a kick is a kick. A block a block and a parry a parry. What is flawed is the training methods, plain and simple.

Keep in mind as well that there's light contact sparring even in muay thai, and when you go hard it all can look like shitty kickboxing :icon_chee

What elements of WC you found useful in your MT training?

MT is MT and WC is WC. So they don't necessarily help one another, but rather they each help the person to learn various fighting methods for the ranges that each style has an affinity to. They really are opposites: One deals with soft force, redirections, and very close combat. The other conditioning, muscular force, and varied ranges of combat. In application of each you learn what works based on how the opponent generally reacts, the consistency of the technique, the effectiveness, and so forth.

For example, in WC I've learned that the highest percentage of movements within the system (for me) are simultaneous hits (faan sao) using the punch as a block and strike, the pak sao (parry), gam sao (pressing), the laan sao (barring arm), man geng sao (neck pulling hand), bong sao (elbow deflection), biu jong sao (shooting guard--using the arm in conjuction with the body to clash against the guard as I move into clinching range). For offensive techniques it's going to be the chung choi, chou choi, and the wang choi (straight, uppercut, and hook punch respectively) in addition to the jang (elbows) and sut (knee). The straight kicks (jing / wang gurk) against the legs work well when I'm trying to break someone's balance, and off the top of my head that's the majority of it. There's much more to wing chun but that tends to be the things that I use the most from it in application.

Things I know do not work (for me) for example is the lap sao (wrist pulling hand) because when people sweat you simply cannot pull this off. Also complicated trapping techniques where you're doing 3 or 4 arm manipulations before striking because real fighters won't let you do that.

For MT, I use it all--because it all works for me. The dutch boxing punches, the elbows, knees, clinching, and of course the round kick and teep. I also learned to use spinning punches, elbows, and kicks in muay thai as well. But it's all worked, and so I'll continue to use all of it.

Where the two systems converge is obviously going to be the close punching/elbows/knees/clinching range. I'll use the round kicks and and teeps for a bit to test the waters, and if he's getting flustered I'll just continue with that. If he gets inside or tries punching I can use wing chun to attach and follow the punch back whereby I'm in WC's preferred range and/or can easily get into the elbows and neck clinching (plum) with knees and so forth.




Sorry for the long post man--but you asked.

 

[SAAMAG]

MT no question, look at the combat arts used in mma, 99% of other martial arts are completely ineffective in real combat

Huh...i didn't know MMA was real combat? I thought it was a sport that used weight classes and rules. Go figure.

 

[Nefron]

That's because Nico brings in people from MMA and Muay Thai to learn and test on.

Interesting. So you are using WC in sparring with those MT guys. Do you feel your WC training is enough to hang with the MT guys with roughly same experience as you? What techniques you land of them on a regular basis?

I'm really eager to see a WC vs MT sparring match. Be sure to film it sometimes. I ask this because there is a ton of guys who say "Oh, WC sucks in general but my school has the real chun and we pressure test and hang with kickboxers and MMA fighters, WC works" and strangely none of them ever have any footage of that. It really smells like bullshit to me.

Huh...i didn't know MMA was real combat? I thought it was a sport that used weight classes and rules. Go figure.

Please drop the street vs sport argument. If you really train the way you say you train then you know that groing strikes, eye gouges etc. aren't the techniques you can safely apply in sparring.

Besides, if you can knee someone in the body hard enough to knock them down, you can easily change the target to their groing if the need arises. If you are skilled enough to take him down, hold a dominant position and land GnP you can also gouge his eyes out.