wing chun or muy thai for self defense

[SAAMAG]

Interesting. So you are using WC in sparring with those MT guys. Do you feel your WC training is enough to hang with the MT guys with roughly same experience as you? What techniques you land of them on a regular basis?

I'm really eager to see a WC vs MT sparring match. Be sure to film it sometimes. I ask this because there is a ton of guys who say "Oh, WC sucks in general but my school has the real chun and we pressure test and hang with kickboxers and MMA fighters, WC works" and strangely none of them ever have any footage of that. It really smells like bullshit to me.

I've already enlightened you on the video footage theory. I am not one of the ones you speak saying that we always train using pure wing chun against so and so. Not to mention I've already told you the main wing chun tools that I typically use in sparring sessions.

Please drop the street vs sport argument. If you really train the way you say you train then you know that groing strikes, eye gouges etc. aren't the techniques you can safely apply in sparring.

Besides, if you can knee someone in the body hard enough to knock them down, you can easily change the target to their groing if the need arises. If you are skilled enough to take him down, hold a dominant position and land GnP you can also gouge his eyes out.

You're assuming things now because that's not where I'm going with it. I was making light of the bad logic of "if you don't see it in MMA than it doesn't work" logic. Which is not true in the least. Go train in something besides MMA and you will see other systems have their merits.

 

[devante]

i think diff arts work for diff reasons, it can be a matter of physical ability, tendencies, preference, work ethic or creativity; not everything works for everyone because everything is not for everyone.

To me the value of an art isn't that everyone can use it in its entirety so much as you can take something of value that can enhance your skills and abilities in another discipline or can give you a whole new set of skills/abilities to work w/as a result of your time spent in that art.

most arts have to be modified, most tech have to be modified depending on the circumstance, your build, abilities and your opp; that is where the value or ability of the person comes into play in the effectiveness of the art.

if a guy uses mt and gets koed, noone says mt stinks; they say that guy was a lousy mt practitioner and this is why he got leveled, an the same guy who can't use mt effectively at all might use karate and run through guys left and right. As karate might play to his strengths, skills, tendencies better or a guy who can't do sh*t using karate might use boxing and all of a sudden start running clinics on everyone.

just cus U can't make it work, doesn't mean it doesn't or can't; it means you can't make it work. I bet alot of guys here can't use the philly shell, does that mean it doesnt work either; most guys here can't use shotokan worth a damn, does that mean it doesn't work either..no. The art may have some failings, but every art does; more times than not its the practitioner moreso than the art that fails.

another point is just because a pro mma guy can handle a guy doing wing chun on the feet, doesn't mean that you (non pro-recreational martial artist or hobbyist can).

and finally we all base our opinions on what we have seen, or experienced; if you say wc sucks its cus you either haven't been impressed by what you have seen or because a guy u sparred got his ass mashed up by u.

that is what makes YOUR opinion legitimate, just like in all tma discussions; a million guys come on here and say im not that good at bjj boxing mt or kickboxing and i killed the wc karate kung fu tkd hapkido practitioner.

but if someone who takes those arts says the same from the opp perspective, then we question the skills of the mt wrestler boxer bjj or kickboxer.

all any of us can speak on is our experience, an some of us have broader experiences than other; read the post and you can figure it out really easily, i have had the chance to spar amateur boxers/pro boxers-kickboxers-mt-shotokan- kyokushin-goju ryu-kenpo-tkd-wc-kung fu practitioners; an in my estimation every one of those arts can and will be effective, but all the practitioners (as a result of holes in their arts or because of the artist limitations) can be solved and neutralized.

wing chun can work, as most tma can, if trained under pressure and w/an open mind; in regards to diff timings counters defenses offenses and strategies applied by other arts. AN AS IS SAY TO EVERYONE WHO BASHES THE EFFECTIVENESS OF TMA'S; MAYBE I JUST KNOW A BETTER CLASS OF PRACTITIONER OR A BETTER CLASS OF FIGHTER, cus the majority of tma type guys i know would handle the majority of equally skilled mma striking practitioners, an its based on what i have seen them do. AND its based on the success or lackthereof i had against the holy trinity of mma (MT/KB/BX) and the success or lackthereof i had against guys doing tma's.

the issue of effectiveness is rarely skills; its often conditioning, i.e. the amount of abuse each is trained to take and distribute, as well as the frequency of sparring. Almost every kb-mt-bx gym/practitioner has alot of those things; you have to LOOK for tma's that do the same.

an while im no pro or virtuoso on the feet, i have had the pleasure of doing some work w/one of the gentleman who is defending wing chun, an i can speak matter of factly that a)he does have experience and a good skillset in the mainstream arts (boxing kb mt) and b)he can apply wing chun effectively w/in the context of live sparring and against a non wing chun practitioner (WHO HAS EXP SPARRING non tma types). Is it the same stance, no; but it is the same principles and overall strategies and techniques... and they were effective, he also showed me some things that im gonna add to my repetoire to maybe widen some of the things i can do or make the things i do more eff.

but since i don't fight ufc - strikeforce- dream- sengoku-wec or bellator i guess my opinion doesn't matter much and i guess i don't know very much; even though people who have any idea about striking (philosophies-tech-strategies) can read my posts and know that i in fact know alot about all 4s things in regards to a myriad of styles.

 

[Shawn333]

do krav maga. knowing how to fight like a woman (eye gouges, groin grabbing, etc) is often overlooked by pure sport martial arts and the best way to learn how to defend yourself is by drilling things that are intuitive to human instinct

Those things aren't intuitive to human instinct. What you drill the most in life is what you'll do under pressure. This is why wrestlers in MMA spend years in an MMA camp and sometimes end up doing nothing more than laying on someone in the heat of the moment. It's like they forget that you can actually hit someone while on the ground even though you know they've been training ground n pound. People always revert back to what they're familiar with under pressure. I got in a fight with a collegiate wrestler once back in my college days....you could say I got tooled pretty badly, except the funny thing is...neither one of us got hurt whatsoever. I got my ass slammed down on the ground and after that I got dry humped for awhile and that was that. The dude was massive and I'm small....he could have killed me, but he reverted to wrestle meet mode because that's what he spent time training.

If it's actual self defense for you life or to protect your family, you can throw your silly notions of fighting like a man or woman out the window. There is no "look at my big balls!" in those situations, fighting dirty works. Sports martial artists (and I'm one too...boxing and Judo) get butthurt about the fact that they spend so much time training and can be done in with a bite or an eye gouge. Your statement about fighting like a woman is every bit as sad, ignorant, and stupid as the big dumb asses who call grappling fighting like a F A G, and say real men just exchange punches.

 

[Nefron]

i think diff arts work for diff reasons, it can be a matter of physical ability, tendencies, preference, work ethic or creativity; not everything works for everyone because everything is not for everyone.

To me the value of an art isn't that everyone can use it in its entirety so much as you can take something of value that can enhance your skills and abilities in another discipline or can give you a whole new set of skills/abilities to work w/as a result of your time spent in that art.

most arts have to be modified, most tech have to be modified depending on the circumstance, your build, abilities and your opp; that is where the value or ability of the person comes into play in the effectiveness of the art.

Lets look at it like this: We have two cars and one is better than another in pretty much every aspect. Just because a very good driver can can make a shit car reach its destination faster than an average driver can make the good car doesn't mean that the cars are equal.

I think we can all agree that good WC fighters are the exception, not the rule. These guys made it as far as they did because of hard work, dedication and talent. And yet, they are no way near the level of elite practitioners of say MT, Boxing, Judo etc. I find it hard to believe that these same guys wouldn't be equal or better fighters if the did some other style.

On the other hand, an average Joe that trains boxing for a few years will surely become a good fighter. Hell, a year of average boxing training is more then enough to make him much better than he was.

By this standard WC sucks.

Just like Aikido, which is a ball of skirt wearing dancing ghey on its own, has elements that can be used effectively by Judo and BJJ masters. Both styles are OK to do if you enjoy them, but I don't know if its smart for a fighter to dig trough mountains of bullshit do find something cool and shiney when you can use that time to train something else.

 

[SAAMAG]

Lets look at it like this: We have two cars and one is better than another in pretty much every aspect. Just because a very good driver can can make a shit car reach its destination faster than an average driver can make the good car doesn't mean that the cars are equal.

I think we can all agree that good WC fighters are the exception, not the rule. These guys made it as far as they did because of hard work, dedication and talent. And yet, they are no way near the level of elite practitioners of say MT, Boxing, Judo etc. I find it hard to believe that these same guys wouldn't be equal or better fighters if the did some other style.

On the other hand, an average Joe that trains boxing for a few years will surely become a good fighter. Hell, a year of average boxing training is more then enough to make him much better than he was.

By this standard WC sucks.

Just like Aikido, which is a ball of skirt wearing dancing ghey on its own, has elements that can be used effectively by Judo and BJJ masters. Both styles are OK to do if you enjoy them, but I don't know if its smart for a fighter to dig trough mountains of bullshit do find something cool and shiney when you can use that time to train something else.

How do the car enthusiast / reviewers determine the better car? By driving both of them. They experience both vehicles as a driver before making an assessment. No disrespect, but by your own admission you've barely driven one let alone both.

I agree with you though that most of the wing chun out there is crap. I have no qualms with that notion. But if you look and the fundamental make up of each system (MT & WC) they're not much different in broad form. They are both striking arts, both have punches, kicks, deflections and blocks. All have merit and all work as individual tools. Many techniques are shared even! The question is--how did you train to use those tools? That will determine how well you can use the system. That is why you have a lot of crappy wing chun. The training method that's being passed down is severely flawed because we now have the blind leading the blind in terms of actual fighting experience.

So to use your analogy, I'd say we have two vehicles. Both vehicles have the same frame, engine, tires, and supporting systems. But one vehicle has a larger gas tank and has better tuning (MT fighters generally are in better fighting shape and have more endurance as well as a proven fighting curriculum). The other vehicle has a smaller gas tank, and needs some ECU refinement. (WT fighters generally don't have the endurance and their training methodology needs work as a whole).

 

[EffeKt]

Wing Chun is so fuckin' weak.

I've sparred a handful of them and also Shotokan (and that other one - kirokinshin or whatever). I never go about telling people that I do Muay Thai, but it will slip out every now and then when talking about fighting. Once they find out, they always desperately want to prove to you how much better their martial art is better than yours (almost annoyingly) and fail all the time.

I respect Shotokan way more than Wing Chun though. Wing Chun is such a dying art, but unfortunately you can't tell a practitioner that: they have dedicated so much time and effort into it that it would be a blow to something they feverishly believe in - sort of like religion.

And those "half-believers", don't fuckin' fool yourself. I hate that argument "well there is some moves in it that are useful." If 1/4 of the moves in the martial art have some use, then that comes to show that 3/4 of it is a waste of time - so what is the point?

Do yourself a favour TS and go learn boxing - a good offense is a good defense. If you don't want to learn boxing then learn how to run fast because in a world like today where people fight in large groups, carry knives/guns, or are more than willing to smash a beer bottle behind your head, running would be the most intelligent thing to do because it will save your life.

 

[SAAMAG]

Wing Chun is so fuckin' weak.

I've sparred a handful of them and also Shotokan (and that other one - kirokinshin or whatever). I never go about telling people that I do Muay Thai, but it will slip out every now and then when talking about fighting. Once they find out, they always desperately want to prove to you how much better their martial art is better than yours (almost annoyingly) and fail all the time.

I respect Shotokan way more than Wing Chun though. Wing Chun is such a dying art, but unfortunately you can't tell a practitioner that: they have dedicated so much time and effort into it that it would be a blow to something they feverishly believe in - sort of like religion.

And those "half-believers", don't fuckin' fool yourself. I hate that argument "well there is some moves in it that are useful." If 1/4 of the moves in the martial art have some use, then that comes to show that 3/4 of it is a waste of time - so what is the point?

Do yourself a favour TS and go learn boxing - a good offense is a good defense. If you don't want to learn boxing then learn how to run fast because in a world like today where people fight in large groups, carry knives/guns, or are more than willing to smash a beer bottle behind your head, running would be the most intelligent thing to do because it will save your life.

Translated:
"Teeheehee teeheehee. I'm so badass that I beat up several wing chun guys all at the same time! Everyone wants to impress me because I do muay thai and its in MMA so I'm badass. I like karate because its in MMA now! Teeheehee --- I use also use the word fuck in its various forms to add legitimacy to my posts and show how HARD I am!"

Give a logical explanation as to why it doesn't work. Tell me and everyone else what is fundamentally unsound about the techniques. We've already established that the training method is not conducive to building fighting skill--but what about the system's techniques specifically is unsound and why?

On another note, I remember back before Machida when the parrots would talk shit about karate as well. Noooow however people have respect for it. Way to go parrot. Kwaaaak!

 

[EffeKt]

Translated:
"Teeheehee teeheehee. I'm so badass that I beat up several wing chun guys all at the same time! Everyone wants to impress me because I do muay thai and its in MMA so I'm badass. I like karate because its in MMA now! Teeheehee --- I use also use the word fuck in its various forms to add legitimacy to my posts and show how HARD I am!"

Give a logical explanation as to why it doesn't work. Tell me and everyone else what is fundamentally unsound about the techniques. We've already established that the training method is not conducive to building fighting skill--but what about the system's techniques specifically is unsound and why?

On another note, I remember back before Machida when the parrots would talk shit about karate as well. Noooow however people have respect for it. Way to go parrot. Kwaaaak!

Aww is someone butt-hurt that I criticized their flawed fighting system? Sad that you have to fall back on cliche comebacks that muay thai is heavily used in MMA...but hey guess what? Wing Chun isn't.

Wing Chun is just not practical enough to be useful. All those dirty moves everyone knows how to do since their first time going out in recess in elementary school - you don't need a martial art for that.

Unfortunately I don't have respect for Machida or his "machida karate" which is some convoluted mix of shotokan and everything else , oh how you know so much about me. BTW my post was logical, you should read it to the end and then afterwords go look up the definition of logical retard. After that, you should go tell your father he raised a pussy because all you are good at is being an e-thug and riding dong.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

BTW my post was logical, you should read it to the end and then afterwords go look up the definition of logical retard.

i may be wrong but werent you the same gentleman who used the "logic" that the axe kick didn't work because you said couldn't do it?

:icon_conf

 

[SAAMAG]

Aww is someone butt-hurt that I criticized their flawed fighting system? Sad that you have to fall back on cliche comebacks that muay thai is heavily used in MMA...but hey guess what? Wing Chun isn't.

Wing Chun is just not practical enough to be useful. All those dirty moves everyone knows how to do since their first time going out in recess in elementary school - you don't need a martial art for that.

Unfortunately I don't have respect for Machida or his "machida karate" which is some convoluted mix of shotokan and everything else , oh how you know so much about me. BTW my post was logical, you should read it to the end and then afterwords go look up the definition of logical retard. After that, you should go tell your father he raised a pussy because all you are good at is being an e-thug and riding dong.

So then I take it you CAN'T answer my question? You "fighting" some 10 year olds doesn't equate to logical thought.

So I ask again, what specifically do you think is unsound about wing chun technique wise? I'll give you an example since you're impaired: "What is non-functional about an elbow-down straight punch?" or maybe "What is non-functional about using angles to lever the opponents punch and land one of your own?"

Lets see how logical you are.

 

[EffeKt]

i may be wrong but werent you the same gentleman who used the "logic" that the axe kick didn't work because you said couldn't do it?

:icon_conf

No sir, I like axe kicks.

 

[EffeKt]

So then I take it you CAN'T answer my question? You "fighting" some 10 year olds doesn't equate to logical thought.

So I ask again, what specifically do you think is unsound about wing chun technique wise? I'll give you an example since you're impaired: "What is non-functional about an elbow-down straight punch?" or maybe "What is non-functional about using angles to lever the opponents punch and land one of your own?"

Lets see how logical you are.

Hah - so you expect me to break it down section by section to prove to a delusional freak that Wing Chun is flawed? No sir, I am not going to do that, way too much time and effort with no benefit - I am not playing your dull game.

Nothing is going to change from what I say, you are still going to believe in Wing Chun till your last breath. I can tell you don't get into fights much often, but watch them a lot and want to believe that Wing Chun will devistate all but that is not reality.

Unfortunately I am one of few on this thread that is being rational about this. Not everyone can fight 1 on 30 like you mister. If TS want to learn something for self-defense, I highly recommend boxing (see how I didn't say Muay thai? guess that puts your TUFF generalization away). It is practical and effective for the street.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

No sir, I like axe kicks.

ah never mind then:icon_chee

 

[SAAMAG]

Hah - so you expect me to break it down section by section to prove to a delusional freak that Wing Chun is flawed? No sir, I am not going to do that, way too much time and effort with no benefit - I am not playing your dull game.

Nothing is going to change from what I say, you are still going to believe in Wing Chun till your last breath. I can tell you don't get into fights much often, but watch them a lot and want to believe that Wing Chun will devistate all but that is not reality.

Unfortunately I am one of few on this thread that is being rational about this. Not everyone can fight 1 on 30 like you mister. If TS want to learn something for self-defense, I highly recommend boxing (see how I didn't say Muay thai? guess that puts your TUFF generalization away). It is practical and effective for the street.

So in summation...you don't know anything about the system that you proclaim is inefficient. NO problem. I just want the OP to know the difference between an educated opinion and a non-educated one.

Unfortunately for you I spar regularly using both systems, and work security. Sorry chump, wrong again.

Also, try not to pin me with things that other people say like what you've been doing. I've said nothing about dirty moves, or fighting multiple opponents. Wait...wasn't it YOU that said you fought several people from wing chun and shotokan? Hmmm...

 

[vorpal_]

still waiting on any footage of anything viable from learning wing chun


i won't hold my breath because i'm aware none exists

 

[SAAMAG]

still waiting on any footage of anything viable from learning wing chun


i won't hold my breath because i'm aware none exists

You could always go find someone to spar with?? Wait...that would require you to actually have to fight. Never mind.

 

[EffeKt]

So in summation...you don't know anything about the system that you proclaim is inefficient. NO problem. I just want the OP to know the difference between an educated opinion and a non-educated one.

Unfortunately for you I spar regularly using both systems, and work security. Sorry chump, wrong again.

Also, try not to pin me with things that other people say like what you've been doing. I've said nothing about dirty moves, or fighting multiple opponents. Wait...wasn't it YOU that said you fought several people from wing chun and shotokan? Hmmm...

Thats good you spar using both systems...and you work security: AWESOME.

Little do you realize I am not trying to pin anything on you, but instead focusing on why TS should not learn Wing Chun. Not everything revolves around you star.

Yeah I did say I fought several (actually it was more than several) people from Wing Chun and Shotokan. So?

In conclusion, I have no idea what you are trying to accomplish in this post - I can tell you are red-faced and angry causing you to just spew out random sentences of nonsense...so yeah this is the end of this argument I suppose.

Keep on Wing Chunning.

 

[vorpal_]

i don't think there are actually any wing chun schools around here, i'm sure i'd be amazed at how effective trying to use wing chun at a boxing gym would be though

it's weird you're implying that i don't train, but you think wing chun is even a remotely useful art?

 

[vorpal_]

YouTube - Ving Tzun vs Kickboxen Sparring Wing Chun Kung Fu WT Tsun

here's the only thing i've ever found portraying wing chun in a good light, but it's essentially a guy who is 3-4 inches taller and at least 20 lbs heavier beating up a guy who is too timid to exchange on top of being god awful anyway

 

[SAAMAG]

i don't think there are actually any wing chun schools around here, i'm sure i'd be amazed at how effective trying to use wing chun at a boxing gym would be though

it's weird you're implying that i don't train, but you think wing chun is even a remotely useful art?

I apologize vorpol, I said that because all over the net people go and ask for video evidence instead of going and seeing first hand how an art works or does not. You can't feel energy in a video. You don't know how hard someone punches on a video. You don't get to spar with anyone on a video.

The other thread had a couple vids somewhere in there, but I don't go looking for them myself either. I prefer the hands on approach when I want to "see" something. Back before the UFC became popular, I was only a striker with the only grappling experience being from Gung Fu through application of chin na and shuia jiao, clinching from MT, an some basic reaping from wc.

I anticipated that because of the UFC everyone was going to increase their knowledge of submission grappling, and decided to check out a BJJ school in Florida because I needed to know what'd I'd be up against as a striker. Once there, I loved it and decided instead to train it alongside my standup stuff.

Long story short, I go and learn about the things I question. That's all I recommend of those that are seeking answers themselves.