Wing chun is a bad martial art.

[panamaican]

The wing chun punch is the same one in the video I posted, and you replied to originally.

Stall until I go to sleep. Is that the plan?

Can you just say that karate doesn't use the unique wing chun punching style To stop wasting my time and yours? This is really common knowledge, and noone would argue that.

No one's stalling, I left you a video. Ok, I went back to to look at the HW video and the only person describing that attack as a WC punch is you. Even the instructor demonstrates that the point is to attack any open area, including the use of two different open hand strikes to the face.

You said that there was a unique WC punch in that video but the only martial art style mentioned is karate. Sadly, there are no WC techniques anywhere to be found. I posted a link to a video, you can describe the unique WC punch being demonstrated.

 

[Inquisitus]

...

The video demonstrated that boxing has the tools to handle the trapping range. Why incorporate WC if you can use that time to further enhance boxing or even wrestling? The latter two will be more applicable to a wider range of threats than learning a subset of a single style.

I don't think WC is a BS style. I just think the time & effort can better spent in other striking arts due to method of training & sparring.

 

[frostbite1**]

It was a bad move to make this thread man... so not worth it.

Wing Chun was designed for brutal self-defense- in Asia. So was Aikido and Ninjutsu... Maybe Amerians just need to quit trying to adapt this stuff? Maybe we're screwing it up. I know we screwed up the two latter mentioned arts.

you have to prove you MA. like the gracies did in the vale tudo days.

 

[411dd]

No one's stalling, I left you a video. Ok, I went back to to look at the HW video and the only person describing that attack as a WC punch is you. Even the instructor demonstrates that the point is to attack any open area, including the use of two different open hand strikes to the face.

You said that there was a unique WC punch in that video but the only martial art style mentioned is karate. Sadly, there are no WC techniques anywhere to be found. I posted a link to a video, you can describe the unique WC punch being demonstrated.

You left me a video full of nothing=stalling (for at least 2 hours might i add, i even went jogging and came back).

There were 2 videos i posted. one was the grandmaster of wc who not only described the wing chun punch, used the exact same technique, bursting technique, as in the Krav video.

If this is a white belt move as you claim, that you learn in the first few classes, why couldn't you produce a video of it in over 2 hours? There was no bursting technique or anyting resembling it in any of the photos or videos you posted=stalling and waste of time.:icon_neut


the moral of the story is Dont claim stuff you can't back up.

I'm done for tonight.

 

[Da_Rev_Ong]

Love the red herring btw.

The body of evidence shows that some striking arts, due to the way they train, are more effective than others. This same body of evidence is not based on hearsay or anecdotes from people who have investment in the art they're defending.

300 years of martial history can be disregarded like the gun made melee weapons 2nd string.

True, but it does not mean that such things were put to use or have been found useful before especially in the context that <fill in the blank> art here is useless, bad, etc. While the video evidence is not apparent to us, it had to be in use at some point as a viable martial art.

I find it funny that a lot of "real life" and "on the street" scenarios seem to be bandied about while quantifying the effectiveness of X martial art to Z martial art. The irrefutable truth is that street fighting is not sport fighting, and MMA is not as "close to reality" as some hold. As a real life example, we can just take a look at how Alex Gong met his untimely end in 2003. Alex was an ISKA Junior Middleweight Muay Thai champ. By all reasoning, more than physically capable of handling himself against the majority of humanity in a one-on-one confrontation. Gong pursued a man who had hit his parked car into an intersection close to the Fairtex gym in San Francisco. He was ready and raring to go. He was also shot point blank in the chest and died at the scene. That is the type of things that "fights" on the street can involve.

While I do agree with the second paragraph of your quoted statement, I believe the operative quantifier of the subject that is more indicative of anything is not the styles themselves, but (as you stated) "the way they train." I find it funny that the majority on both sides of the fence of this little intercourse hasn't recognized that as a larger part of the queries they are putting forth to each other...

Instead they are insisting that if it doesn't exist on youtube, it simply doesn't exist.

 

[Inquisitus]

True, but it does not mean that such things were put to use or have been found useful before especially in the context that <fill in the blank> art here is useless, bad, etc. While the video evidence is not apparent to us, it had to be in use at some point as a viable martial art.

I find it funny that a lot of "real life" and "on the street" scenarios seem to be bandied about while quantifying the effectiveness of X martial art to Z martial art. The irrefutable truth is that street fighting is not sport fighting, and MMA is not as "close to reality" as some hold. As a real life example, we can just take a look at how Alex Gong met his untimely end in 2003. Alex was an ISKA Junior Middleweight Muay Thai champ. By all reasoning, more than physically capable of handling himself against the majority of humanity in a one-on-one confrontation. Gong pursued a man who had hit his parked car into an intersection close to the Fairtex gym in San Francisco. He was ready and raring to go. He was also shot point blank in the chest and died at the scene. That is the type of things that "fights" on the street can involve.

While I do agree with the second paragraph of your quoted statement, I believe the operative quantifier of the subject that is more indicative of anything is not the styles themselves, but (as you stated) "the way they train." I find it funny that the majority on both sides of the fence of this little intercourse hasn't recognized that as a larger part of the queries they are putting forth to each other...

Instead they are insisting that if it doesn't exist on youtube, it simply doesn't exist.

I think the majority on both sides, including myself, unconsciously constrain ourselves to empty handed combat. Bringing weapons, especially guns, into the picture completely changes the arguments. The saying about bringing a knife to a gunfight comes to mind.

If we had to go into weapons, i'd say WC has the leg up on a lot of striking arts. But then, we're not talking striking arts anymore.

 

[Da_Rev_Ong]

I think the majority on both sides, including myself, unconsciously constrain ourselves to empty handed combat. Bringing weapons, especially guns, into the picture completely changes the arguments. The saying about bringing a knife to a gunfight comes to mind.

If we had to go into weapons, i'd say WC has the leg up on a lot of striking arts. But then, we're not talking striking arts anymore.

In my own opinion I would probably say that discretion trumps all. Don't place yourself in a life threatening situation to begin with. The rest of the stuff is the sort of thing I'm willing to tussle over in the ring or the gym when the opportunity arises, but the last 15+ pages of stuff that has been posted is simply a waste of time on both sides.

 

[panamaican]

You left me a video full of nothing=stalling (for at least 2 hours might i add).

There were 2 videos i posted. one was the grandmaster of wc who not only described the wing chun punch, used the exact same technique, bursting technique, as in the Krav video.

There was no bursting technique or anyting resembling it in any of the photos or videos you posted=waste of time.:icon_neut


the moral of the story is Dont claim stuff you can't back up.

I'm done for tonight.

Stalling? I'm sorry I didn't have time to devote my entire evening to you.

I'm going to try this for the last time.

1) You posted a video from the television show "Human Weapon" and stated: "the simultaneous block and attack, different from the sequental block attack in karate."

2) I informed you that "simultaneous block and attack" is taught early in karate.

3) You told me that there was no such thing in karate and to provide you with a video.

4) After describing the mechanics of the technique as learned by me, a karate-ka, I posted a video showing a "simultaneous block and attack"

5) you then told me that there was unique WC punch in the video.

6) When asked to describe said punch, you told me to look in the other video for the WC punch.

7) Upon re-watching the Human Weapon video, I noticed that they taught several different strikes to use with the karate block. Is there a WC palm strike? A WC claw to the face?

I've got some questions:

1) Where is the WC punch demonstrated/described in the Human Weapon video?

2) If they say the block is karate, why don't they say the punch is WC?

3) What does any of this have to do with "simultaneous block and attack"?

4) Isn't it ironic that you insult my video teaching a technique but expect people to put faith in WC based off demonstration videos?

5) Why do you think that Machida DVD's make you in the slightest bit knowledgable about traditional shotokan karate as applied to self-defense?

 

[EricBfromIowa]

I had problems with a specific 'aikiko' school back in CT many years ago and will rip on that as much as I like, but I still have respect for most of the arts. yeah, wing chung is kinda flaky, but if it gets one slob to stand up and move around and maybe even boost their moral or whatever, fine with me.

just don't put silly shit on youtube.

 

[411dd]

Stalling? I'm sorry I didn't have time to devote my entire evening to you.

I'm going to try this for the last time.

1) You posted a video from the television show "Human Weapon" and stated: "the simultaneous block and attack, different from the sequental block attack in karate."

2) I informed you that "simultaneous block and attack" is taught early in karate.

3) You told me that there was no such thing in karate and to provide you with a video.

4) After describing the mechanics of the technique as learned by me, a karate-ka, I posted a video showing a "simultaneous block and attack"

5) you then told me that there was unique WC punch in the video.

6) When asked to describe said punch, you told me to look in the other video for the WC punch.

7) Upon re-watching the Human Weapon video, I noticed that they taught several different strikes to use with the karate block. Is there a WC palm strike? A WC claw to the face?

I've got some questions:

1) Where is the WC punch demonstrated/described in the Human Weapon video?

2) If they say the block is karate, why don't they say the punch is WC?

3) What does any of this have to do with "simultaneous block and attack"?

4) Isn't it ironic that you insult my video teaching a technique but expect people to put faith in WC based off demonstration videos?

5) Why do you think that Machida DVD's make you in the slightest bit knowledgable about traditional shotokan karate as applied to self-defense?

Over 2 hours of stalling and blah blah blah of a video that never came. I could go on an eleven day cruise and you would still have produced nothing coming close to what you claim by the time i got back. I knew that you would never be able to produce anything that's why I asked you to. People need to start not responding to something they know nothing about. You know nothing about WC yet make false claims, just to further your assault on the art I can see thru your facade.

GOODBYE Try not being a hater next time it's good karma.

 

[netbjjer420]

And the trained fighter has no answer for trapping range other than attempting to exit trapping range.

Trapping range is an artificial range that can only be imposed for any significant length of time on a compliant opponent. The other ranges, striking and grappling, especially grappling can be imposed upon a non-compliant opponent easily, taking skill levels into consideration of course.

If one is 'untrained in the trapping range', the ability to move from the trapping range to striking or grappling is practically unhindered even against someone 'skilled in the trapping range' making it the most useless range of all. Not saying it will 100% never happen, but your time is better spent somewhere else.

 

[high right kick]

Stalling? I'm sorry I didn't have time to devote my entire evening to you.

I'm going to try this for the last time.

1) You posted a video from the television show "Human Weapon" and stated: "the simultaneous block and attack, different from the sequental block attack in karate."

2) I informed you that "simultaneous block and attack" is taught early in karate.

3) You told me that there was no such thing in karate and to provide you with a video.

4) After describing the mechanics of the technique as learned by me, a karate-ka, I posted a video showing a "simultaneous block and attack"

5) you then told me that there was unique WC punch in the video.

6) When asked to describe said punch, you told me to look in the other video for the WC punch.

7) Upon re-watching the Human Weapon video, I noticed that they taught several different strikes to use with the karate block. Is there a WC palm strike? A WC claw to the face?

I've got some questions:

1) Where is the WC punch demonstrated/described in the Human Weapon video?

2) If they say the block is karate, why don't they say the punch is WC?

3) What does any of this have to do with "simultaneous block and attack"?

4) Isn't it ironic that you insult my video teaching a technique but expect people to put faith in WC based off demonstration videos?

5) Why do you think that Machida DVD's make you in the slightest bit knowledgable about traditional shotokan karate as applied to self-defense?

dude your getting trolled so hard by 411, just stop giving him what he wants, ignore him.

 

[BaliShagSmoke]

To 411dd: stop being such a defensive little baby.

You keep demanding that everyone keep an open mind about Wing Chun and then you start becoming a little emo when anyone suggests that hallmarks of Wing Chun can be learned outside the style. For fucks sake, take your own advice. Listen to what panamaican is trying to explain to you - Good martial arts tend to have a lot of overlap because we all have the same human bodies and there is an optimal way for us to move them. Panamaican IS INCLUDING wing chun amongst the GOOD martial arts with his comparisons to Shotokan.

I think all you want to hear is people agree with you that Wing Chun is a unique and specialized art and only by training wing chun will one learn to fight at trapping range and be able to survive on 'the streets.'


Fucking baby.

 

[panamaican]

Over 2 hours of stalling and blah blah blah of a video that never came. I could go on an eleven day cruise and you would still have produced nothing coming close to what you claim by the time i got back. I knew that you would never be able to produce anything that's why I asked you to. People need to start not responding to something they know nothing about. You know nothing about WC yet make false claims, just to further your assault on the art I can see thru your facade.

GOODBYE Try not being a hater next time it's good karma.

I presented a video. It showed simultaneous blocking and attacking. I backed up my claim. I demonstrated via video, including time stamps, what karate teaches.

You have yet to describe the WC punch in the HW video. If you say he punches with a vertical fist, WC isn't the only artial art that uses vertical punches. If you tell me that the footwork in the second WC video of stepping then dragging the rear leg is unique to WC, you're ignorant of other martial arts like boxing.

You said what karate is/isn't and you were proved wrong. When asked to show what the WC punch was in the Human Weapon video was, you try to change the subject and add personal insults.

What should I expect? You're trying to tell others about martial arts using a cancelled t.v. show as a reference point. LOL, try not being uninformed next time.

 

[EricBfromIowa]

good god. the trolls showed up in the TD forum tonight. don't feed it dude, it'll die.

 

[D.R.H.]

Mabye(I highly doubt it), But not with a vertical punch or footwork like that. That's WC.


Come to think of it, they certanly don't do that in pure karate. And in the video they say that

"Unlike in karate this move is combined with a simultaneous strike"

-the video

The 4 main branches of Karate have their base from Chinese arts and absolutely teach that as part of what they do.

 

[D.R.H.]

I don't know anything about WC, but here's what I've gathered:

- WC focuses on fighting in 'trapping range' which would be between 'long striking' range and clinching range.

- Like pretty much any other MA, it would give you a huge advantage vs. an untrained combatant in a fight.

- It has been suggested that it is a bad 'system' for a fighter. If I might try to interpret that, the problem is as follows: It is extremely difficult to force your opponent to fight at 'trapping range'. Vs a boxer, it will be difficult to avoid fighting at 'striking range'. Vs a grappler, it will be difficult to avoid clinching.

- It was suggested that WC developed as a response to other forms of kung fu. So perhaps where it was developed, most other trained combatants _preferred_ trapping range. WC then specialized in fighting in that range even further. When it originated, it might have then seemed 'invincible' - the only likely opponents either were untrained or would choose to fight at trapping range.

- The hand traps and some other techniques appear to be situationally effective.

- (not just from this thread) street effectiveness is somewhat different from ring effectiveness. On the street, you might be fighting a group, you might be fighting an armed opponent. That said, introduction of a knife to your opponent would - to me - make 'trapping range' even more undesireable. A karate style approach - keeping distance, jumping in to land one strike and jumping out - would likely be the best bet. Of course we can imagine scenarios where you would be in trapping range, but that doesn't mean it should be the _basis_ of your fighting set.

So ... would most people agree:
- WC could have some useful techniques for any fighter to use.
- WC as a primary basis, if intended to be used against other trained fighters, MUST address how to get and maintain the desired range.

Another question ... would 'trapping range' striking and parrying practice be useful in defending (or launching) GnP? The video of the two masters rolling around made me consider that the distance between heads/shoulders during GnP might be similar to 'trapping range'.

I agree with everything you said except the knife scenario. We saw how easy it was to get into "stab," range in one of the earlier videos. At that point, I'd much rather know a trapping based art with a heavy focus on blocking/parrying/deflecting than anything else. I'd say the answer to all your questions at the end was yes. Some of the guys I grapple/cross train with have experimented with trapping from guard positions and it works well to clear the head for strikes.

 

[Cachimbo]

I've learned a lot from this thread.

411dd is the most successful troll in the history of the Stand up and Grappling forums. He made a stupid Aikido thread last forever, and he inspired a whole WC thread.

People are delusional about WC. While it's obviously helpful against untrained people, which is the point of a martial art anyways, it will get you raped against a halfway decent grappler. And god forbid you encounter a good boxer/kickboxer. Good luck "trapping" someone with good footwork and head movement, throwing hook/jab/leg kick combos at you. Would love to see someone "trap" or "chain punch" a MT guy determined to knee you into oblivion from the clinch.

People think you can "train" to fight dirty. How many sparring sessions do these guys have throat striking, raking eyes, fish hooking, and nut grabbing?

There are millions of threads like this on bullshido. There's also a ton of WC guys getting their asses kicked by MMA guys, and some crappy kickboxers getting their asses kicked by WC guys. Go check those out.

We're never gonna see pure MT, Karate, WC, Boxing in MMA. It's all hybrids. The only thing that sticks are the principles. Trapping range is bad for MMA, so we're not gonna see WC guys pwning anytime soon. If they do they'll be using MT and Boxing and whatever other useful striking method with elements of WC, like machida does. It's the practitioner, but it's also the style.

Fighting like this

isn't gonna win you fights.

 

[wisdom blows]

this thread keeps making me realize how much i love muay thai.

 

[MAvulture]

Fighting like this

isn't gonna win you fights.

Unless you're Don Frye