Wing chun is a bad martial art.

[Nefron]

You do realize that all the videos you posted are choreographed demonstrations?Or "sparring" done with only WC techniques.Or pattycake?

The reasons why elite fighters aren't using WC is same as the reason elite swimmers don't swim with their eye lids.

 

[411dd]

[YT]HcyRPAQRMo0[/YT]

Krav maga bursting technique also a WC technique. Again another useless and unproven Krav maga army combatives technique in the most peaceful country in the world. the last choice of elite bodyguards in combat arts. Note the vertical WC punch and the simultaneous block and attack, different from the sequental block attack in karate.

Also demonstrated by grandmaster Samuel Kwok in this video.

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[Nefron]

Blah blah blah COMPLIANT SHIT bla bla bla

You are delusional mate.I would gladly punch some sense into you.

 

[panamaican]

Any videos of Wing Chun working in a street fight?

I wish people would stop saying this. Do you have any idea how hard it is to find video of muay thai in a street fight? Does that mean we should pretend muay thai is only useful in a ring? Of course not.

 

[Randy Chung]

I didn't say anything negative karate, and fyi bruce lee ended up denouncing wing chun later in life.

I am positive Bruce Lee did not denounced Wing Chun.

READ THIS:

To reach the masses, some sort of big organization (whether) domestic and foreign branch affiliation, is not necessary. To reach the growing number of students, some sort of pre-conformed set must be established as standards for the branch to follow. As a result all members will be conditioned according to the prescribed system. Many will probably end up as a prisoner of a systematized drill.
Styles tend to not only separate men - because they have their own doctrines and then the doctrine became the gospel truth that you cannot change. But if you do not have a style, if you just say: Well, here I am as a human being, how can I express myself totally and completely? Now, that way you won't create a style, because style is a crystallization. That way, it's a process of continuing growth.
To me totality is very important in sparring. Many styles claim this totality. They say that they can cope with all types of attacks; that their structures cover all the possible lines and angles, and are capable of retaliation from all angles and lines. If this is true, then how did all the different styles come about? If they are in totality, why do some use only the straight lines, others the round lines, some only kicks, and why do still others who want to be different just flap and flick their hands? To me a system that clings to one small aspect of combat is actually in bondage.
This statement expresses my feelings perfectly: 'In memory of a once fluid man, crammed and distorted by the classical mess.'

- Bruce Lee

SUMMARY IF YOU DIDN'T WANT TO READ:

Not one style has an answer to everything. Keep an open mind. Take what is useful and discard what is not.

That's why he created JKD. In his own system, he includes SOME Wing Chun techniques, along side with boxing, MT, Judo etc.

Style VS Style is so 1990 lol...

 

[ktrp]

I don't know anything about WC, but here's what I've gathered:

- WC focuses on fighting in 'trapping range' which would be between 'long striking' range and clinching range.

- Like pretty much any other MA, it would give you a huge advantage vs. an untrained combatant in a fight.

- It has been suggested that it is a bad 'system' for a fighter. If I might try to interpret that, the problem is as follows: It is extremely difficult to force your opponent to fight at 'trapping range'. Vs a boxer, it will be difficult to avoid fighting at 'striking range'. Vs a grappler, it will be difficult to avoid clinching.

- It was suggested that WC developed as a response to other forms of kung fu. So perhaps where it was developed, most other trained combatants _preferred_ trapping range. WC then specialized in fighting in that range even further. When it originated, it might have then seemed 'invincible' - the only likely opponents either were untrained or would choose to fight at trapping range.

- The hand traps and some other techniques appear to be situationally effective.

- (not just from this thread) street effectiveness is somewhat different from ring effectiveness. On the street, you might be fighting a group, you might be fighting an armed opponent. That said, introduction of a knife to your opponent would - to me - make 'trapping range' even more undesireable. A karate style approach - keeping distance, jumping in to land one strike and jumping out - would likely be the best bet. Of course we can imagine scenarios where you would be in trapping range, but that doesn't mean it should be the _basis_ of your fighting set.

So ... would most people agree:
- WC could have some useful techniques for any fighter to use.
- WC as a primary basis, if intended to be used against other trained fighters, MUST address how to get and maintain the desired range.

Another question ... would 'trapping range' striking and parrying practice be useful in defending (or launching) GnP? The video of the two masters rolling around made me consider that the distance between heads/shoulders during GnP might be similar to 'trapping range'.

 

[panamaican]

[YT]HcyRPAQRMo0[/YT]

Krav maga bursting technique also a WC technique. Again another useless and unproven Krav maga army combatives technique in the most peaceful country in the world. A top choice of elite bodyguards. Note the vertical WC punch and the simultaneous block and attack, different from the sequental block attack in karate.

Actually, karate teaches that exact simultaneous block and attack fairly early on in its training.

 

[411dd]

Actually, karate teaches that exact simultaneous block and attack fairly early on in its training.

Mabye(I highly doubt it), But not with a vertical punch or footwork like that. That's WC.


Come to think of it, they certanly don't do that in pure karate. And in the video they say that

"Unlike in karate this move is combined with a simultaneous strike"

-the video

 

[panamaican]

Mabye(I highly doubt it), But not with a vertical punch or footwork like that. That's WC.


Come to think of it, they certanly don't do that in pure karate. And in the video they say that

"Unlike in karate this move is combined with a simultaneous strike"

-the video

I assure you it's taught early in karate. Look into Heian nidan and heian yondan. I know what the video is saying and I'm telling you they are very wrong.

 

[411dd]

I assure you it's taught early in karate. Look into Heian nidan and heian yondan. I know what the video is saying and I'm telling you they are very wrong.

Sorry. You are mistaken. There are no vertical fists wc punches in karate, as the technique was demonstrated in the vid. Mabye you will find a karate guy somewhere who has adapted the vertical punch but, that is not the norm.

 

[DirtyCrabcakes]

Can one of the internet warriors please let me know when it is you plan on taking the "WC Challenge"? Please post vids too.

 

[panamaican]

Sorry. You are mistaken. There are no vertical fists, wc punches, in karate.

I'm pretty sure my training is not mistaken. If you happen to believe the only way to age uke and oi tsuki simultaneously, a la heian nidan the second kata in shotokan karate, is with a vertical fist, then continue to believe that.

Here's what our conversation should teach us. I have trained karate (and boxing) and I'm telling you what it teaches. You tell me I'm wrong. A perfect example of someone believing they know more about an art that an actual practicioner. Train in something before you say what it does and doesn't teach.

 

[411dd]

I'm pretty sure my training is not mistaken. If you happen to believe the only way to age uke and oi tsuki simultaneously, a la heian nidan the second kata in shotokan karate, is with a vertical fist, then continue to believe that.

Here's what our conversation should teach us. I have trained karate (and boxing) and I'm telling you what it teaches. You tell me I'm wrong. A perfect example of someone believing they know more about an art that an actual practicioner. Train in something before you say what it does and doesn't teach.

I hate to do this to you but please post a vid of this technique. I have never seen a shodokan karate guy fight in trapping range using a punch similar to wc punch. You have me curious.

 

[Volund]

Wing Chun might not be your martial art, or mine. But you shouldn't say it's "bad."

there's an application for every style. Wing Chun might not work in the ring, but when someone gets in your face in a crowded space it'll work just fine.

Calling an entire martial out shows your ignorance.

 

[panamaican]

I hate to do this to you but please post a vid of this technique. I have never seen a karate guy fight in trapping range using a punch similar to wc punch. You have me curious.

I'll post a video in a second but I'll try to address the curiousity first.

One of the basic tenets in shotokan is to attack and defend simultaneously. The inital motion from the Human Weapon video breaks down as follows. While blocking an incoming attack with your left hand, simultaneously step inside with your opposite (right) leg. While stepping in (closing the distance) you strike with the right hand. All of these happen at the same time. You can choose how you wish to attack, a short punch to the body (target varies), a strike to the throat/chin. Horizontal punch, vertical punch, hammer fist these things don't make a difference as long as your body weight is driving the strike. A personal favorite of mine, is to not strike at all but shoot the right hand to the back of the assailant's head. Now you're in clinch range.

Anyway, it's the principle of blocking, stepping, and striking simultaneously that karate teaches. After that you're just dealing with whatever technique you prefer at that range.

 

[panamaican]

I hate to do this to you but please post a vid of this technique. I have never seen a shodokan karate guy fight in trapping range using a punch similar to wc punch. You have me curious.

Forgive how dorky this guy looks:

http://www.theshotokanway.com/images/images9/Elmar 2.jpg

 

[411dd]

I'll post a video in a second but I'll try to address the curiousity first.

One of the basic tenets in shotokan is to attack and defend simultaneously. The inital motion from the Human Weapon video breaks down as follows. While blocking an incoming attack with your left hand, simultaneously step inside with your opposite (right) leg. While stepping in (closing the distance) you strike with the right hand. All of these happen at the same time. You can choose how you wish to attack, a short punch to the body (target varies), a strike to the throat/chin. Horizontal punch, vertical punch these things don't make a difference as long as you're landing with the index and middle finger knuckles with your body weight driving the strike. A personal favorite of mine, is to not strike at all but shoot the right hand to the back of the assailant's head. Now you're in clinch range.

I have to tell you. Machida is my favorite fighter, you can check my threads I've made, I have all his DVD's, and seen all his fights, and watched all the kata on his dvd's and never seen him throw a vertical fist or show any skill whatsoever in trapping range, and in fact that is the only range you can hit him in. It makes a huge difference whether your fist is horizontal or vertical in trapping range. I'm real curious about this vid with vertical punch simultaneous strike using footwork like that.

 

[411dd]

Forgive how dorky this guy looks:

http://www.theshotokanway.com/images/images9/Elmar 2.jpg

That's not a simlar technique look at the footwork, and the way the punch is not coming from the center, and there would be no reason to grab him if it were simultaneous, nor can a pic demonstrate that it was simultaneous.

And that is a total different scenario, he never left his stance, how could that be a bursting technique he didn't burst?

 

[Kin]

I'm not providing any more videos unless I deem it necessary.

The videos you've provided thus far have all been compliant demos. If I were doing a compliant demo, I could flying armbar a knife wielding 'assailant' before he so much as touched me with the blade. But so what?

As for the WC vs Karate and kickboxing vid, we've all seen them before and they weren't very illuminating. Blitzing can pwn somebody who's afraid to get hit -- stop the presses! But hey I've seen middle school fights that look the same.

I'm sure that there are some great fighters out there, who practice Wing Chun. There are exceptions to every rule.

 

[panamaican]

That's not the same technique look at the footwork, and the way the punch is not coming from the center, and there would be no reason to grab him if it were simultaneous.

This is going to address your previous post as well.

The reason you don't see Machida teaching the grabbing aspects of karate (hikite) is because the average MMA combatant is too fast and too strong to commit yourself to them in that way. When you grab your opponent, you have gained some control over him but you have also tied yourself to him. You are in his striking/clinching range and most guys in MMA can take advantage of that. It's also why you don't see alot of Wing Chun in MMA, at that range you are easy to hit and if you can't fight at any other range then you have to constantly place yourself in danger to be effective...and that's bad.

Turning to the image. I don't want to get into a side conversation about the shortcomings of kata but what you see is a stylized version of the same technique from the Krav Maga video. The man in glasses has simultaneously blocked a strike while stepping in and striking. The only difference is that the karate-ka has decided to control the opponent's arm rather than circle off, like in the video you posted.

As far as whether your fist is vertical or horizontal at trapping range, I can't speak to that but a solid hook to the body can be thrown at that range with a vertical fist.

To go one step further. You seem focused on how exact one technique is visually to another. As any fighter will tell you, picture perfect technique is rarely achieved in the heat of combat. What matters most is the principles dictating your choice of technique. Two boxers might throw visually different jabs while using those jabs for the same purpose.

It's why I don't get these style arguments. The principles of a style are what determines its effectiveness. Those principles will dictate the techniques they teach and how they are to be applied. A great fighter masters many principles of fighting then adds the techniques that allow him to best demonstrate those principles.

Don't worry I know I owe you a video.

Edit: I see you added a statement about bursting. Bursting is just rapidly closing the distance, every martial art, from boxing to wrestling and everything in between, teaches that. The more important thing to remember is that you first learn the mechanics of a technique then you learnhow to apply it in a fight. The man in the image is demonstrating the end stage mechanics of what the Krav video just threw at you.