Wing chun is a bad martial art.

[411dd]

This is going to address your previous post as well.

The reason you don't see Machida teaching the grabbing aspects of karate (hikite) is because the average MMA combatant is too fast and too strong to commit yourself to them in that way. When you grab your opponent, you have gained some control over him but you have also tied yourself to him. You are in his striking/clinching range and most guys in MMA can take advantage of that. It's also why you don't see alot of Wing Chun in MMA, at that range you are easy to hit and if you can't fight at any other range then you have to constantly place yourself in danger to be effective...and that's bad.

Turning to the image. I don't want to get into a side conversation about the shortcomings of kata but what you see is a stylized version of the same technique from the Krav Maga video. The man in glasses has simultaneously blocked a strike while stepping in and striking. The only difference is that the karate-ka has decided to control the opponent's arm rather than circle off, like in the video you posted.

As far as whether your fist is vertical or horizontal at trapping range, I can't speak to that but a solid hook to the body can be thrown at that range with a vertical fist.

To go one step further. You seem focused on how exact one technique is visually to another. As any fighter will tell you, picture perfect technique is rarely achieved in the heat of combat. What matters most is the principles dictating your choice of technique. Two boxers might throw visually different jabs while using those jabs for the same purpose.

It's why I don't get these style arguments. The principles of a style are what determines its effectiveness. Those principles will dictate the techniques they teach and how they are to be applied. A great fighter masters many principles of fighting then adds the techniques that allow him to best demonstrate those principles.

Don't worry I know I owe you a video.

Edit: I see you added a statement about bursting. Bursting is just rapidly closing the distance, every martial art, from boxing to wrestling and everything in between, teaches that. The more important thing to remember is that you first learn the mechanics of a technique then you learnhow to apply it in a fight. The man in the image is demonstrating the end stage mechanics of what the Krav video just threw at you.

What I saw in the HW video was a block that resembled karate, but is also in WC, and an unmistakeable WC punch. That strike is unique to WC. And if another martial art has it, it was added later and is now a modernized mixed martial art, just like Krav is.

 

[panamaican]

What I saw in the HW video was a block that resembled karate, but is also in WC, and an unmistakeable WC punch. That strike is unique to WC. And if another martial art has it, it was added later and is now a modernized mixed martial art, just like Krav is.

I think that's a very narrow way of viewing things. Boxing has been around since like 3000 B.C. (including the use of boxing gloves). Does that mean every art that has punches is "modernized"? The more I learn, the more realize there's significant overlap in most martial arts. Sambo, judo, catch wrestling all resemble each other at the root. Judo, Jujitsu, BJJ are the same. It doesn't suprise me that WC punches resemble karate punches - both owe parts of their history to China, moreso in WC obviously. Even in MT, if you showed a karateka fighting out of neko-dachi (cat stance) it would resemble an upright MT stance. In fact, a common karate kick from that stance looks like a MT teep. For an eye opener, research East Indian fighting styles and you'll be surprised at how much they look like most kung fu styles. And they should, historically Indian fighting styles pre-date most chinese styles and were the likely origin point.

Like I said, don't overly focus on how one group holds their fist during a punch or their leg during a kick. You'll miss the bigger picture and the greater beauty of martial arts.

 

[thirteen]

Even after my wing chun-training friend got belted outside of Corrimal Leagues club I didn't bother dissing it.
People become fixated on something, eg religion, the best car etc and nothing will change their minds. It's not worth the hassle.

 

[411dd]

I think that's a very narrow way of viewing things. Boxing has been around since like 3000 B.C. (including the use of boxing gloves). Does that mean every art that has punches is "modernized"? The more I learn, the more realize there's significant overlap in most martial arts. Sambo, judo, catch wrestling all resemble each other at the root. Judo, Jujitsu, BJJ are the same. It doesn't suprise me that WC punches resemble karate punches - both owe parts of their history to China, moreso in WC obviously. Even in MT, if you showed a karateka fighting out of neko-dachi (cat stance) it would resemble an upright MT stance. In fact, a common karate kick from that stance looks like a MT teep. For an eye opener, research East Indian fighting styles and you'll be surprised at how much they look like most kung fu styles. And they should, historically Indian fighting styles pre-date most chinese styles and were the likely origin point.

Like I said, don't overly focus on how one group holds their fist during a punch or their leg during a kick. You'll miss the bigger picture and the greater beauty of martial arts.

Karate doesn't use wing chun punches or anything resembling it.I don't know who would argue with that. It has a totally different philosophy about generating power.

Can you produce that video. Am I waiting for you to film it and post it on youtube or what?
If it's that same guy from that pic i'm going to lmao.

 

[devante]

This is going to address your previous post as well.

The reason you don't see Machida teaching the grabbing aspects of karate (hikite) is because the average MMA combatant is too fast and too strong to commit yourself to them in that way. When you grab your opponent, you have gained some control over him but you have also tied yourself to him. You are in his striking/clinching range and most guys in MMA can take advantage of that. It's also why you don't see alot of Wing Chun in MMA, at that range you are easy to hit and if you can't fight at any other range then you have to constantly place yourself in danger to be effective...and that's bad.

Turning to the image. I don't want to get into a side conversation about the shortcomings of kata but what you see is a stylized version of the same technique from the Krav Maga video. The man in glasses has simultaneously blocked a strike while stepping in and striking. The only difference is that the karate-ka has decided to control the opponent's arm rather than circle off, like in the video you posted.

As far as whether your fist is vertical or horizontal at trapping range, I can't speak to that but a solid hook to the body can be thrown at that range with a vertical fist.

To go one step further. You seem focused on how exact one technique is visually to another. As any fighter will tell you, picture perfect technique is rarely achieved in the heat of combat. What matters most is the principles dictating your choice of technique. Two boxers might throw visually different jabs while using those jabs for the same purpose.

It's why I don't get these style arguments. The principles of a style are what determines its effectiveness. Those principles will dictate the techniques they teach and how they are to be applied. A great fighter masters many principles of fighting then adds the techniques that allow him to best demonstrate those principles.

Don't worry I know I owe you a video.

Edit: I see you added a statement about bursting. Bursting is just rapidly closing the distance, every martial art, from boxing to wrestling and everything in between, teaches that. The more important thing to remember is that you first learn the mechanics of a technique then you learnhow to apply it in a fight. The man in the image is demonstrating the end stage mechanics of what the Krav video just threw at you.

i thought this was common knowledge--esp when u consider alot of karateka are trying to avoid being hit, grabbed or closed off; as that would force them to get into exchanges or test of power instead of controlling the range, pace, and place of the fight. Once you grab an opp you give up your ability to control that, if your opp has the necessary physical and tech skills.

 

[panamaican]

Karate doesn't use wing chun punches or anything resembling it.I don't know who would argue with that. It has a totally different philosophy about generating power.

Can you produce that video. Am I waiting for you to film it and post it on youtube or what?
If it's that same guy from that pic i'm going to lmao.

If you can describe the wing chun punch from that video and I will let you know if there is a karate equivalent.

As far as a good video:

Kata & Bunkai video files for download, Karate videos download online clips, Video archive, Downloads, traditional karate

Go to Video 14, the section beginning at 5:15 and ending at 5:58.

 

[panamaican]

i thought this was common knowledge--esp when u consider alot of karateka are trying to avoid being hit, grabbed or closed off; as that would force them to get into exchanges or test of power instead of controlling the range, pace, and place of the fight. Once you grab an opp you give up your ability to control that, if your opp has the necessary physical and tech skills.

Absolutely, it's why even in karate competitions you don't see a lot of hikite. The high level competitors are too fast and too skilled to let you just control an arm while you punch them in the face. When you don't know how good the other guy is, you're better off keeping out of range. But I was just trying to let the other gentleman know that simultaneous striking and blocking is common in shotokan karate. I'm not exactly sure how we ended up 2 pages deep but I'm pretty sure its because I use 5 sentences when I should just use 1.

 

[411dd]

If you can describe the wing chun punch from that video and I will let you know if there is a karate equivalent.

As far as a good video:

Kata & Bunkai video files for download, Karate videos download online clips, Video archive, Downloads, traditional karate





Go to Video 14, the section beginning at 5:15 and ending at 5:58.

The wing chun punch is the same one in the video I posted, and you replied to originally.

Stall until I go to sleep. Is that the plan?

Can you just say that karate doesn't use the unique wing chun punching style To stop wasting my time and yours? This is really common knowledge, and noone would argue that.

 

[Inquisitus]

This is still the closest video of a contact sparring match between a WC stylist and other stylist posted. It's complete with a wet concrete floor and resulting slipping.

We know roughly what the skill level of the hosts are and can only assume the WC guys are also proficient.

Both sides got their licks in but the interesting result is the "boxing" punches were tooling the WC at the end and moving the head obviously caused misses which could be capitalized on. Moving the head also seemed as effective as trapping when in trouble and in close. In fact, i couldn't discern any trapping but it may be because both sides just decided to go cyclic and damn the torpedoes. Round punches were pretty effective especially as head movement was used.

My takeaway is how effective "boxing" is and going cyclical on a guy causes lots of defensive issues. However, knowing your opponent will do that negates the initiative.

 

[devante]

Absolutely, it's why even in karate competitions you don't see a lot of hikite. The high level competitors are too fast and too skilled to let you just control an arm while you punch them in the face. When you don't know how good the other guy is, you're better off keeping out of range. But I was just trying to let the other gentleman know that simultaneous striking and blocking is common in shotokan karate. I'm not exactly sure how we ended up 2 pages deep but I'm pretty sure its because I use 5 sentences when I should just use 1.

i appreciate your post because you make the extra effort to explain the tech, give examples and then explain why you do or don't see said tech often; as most people think cus they don't see something that an art doesn't have it, when in fact its a matter of who your fighting, what their skills are and what their abilities are as well as the point your at in the fight. You don't just use everything all the time against everyone, it all depends onthe situation and the best guys know which tools to use in which situation; if your opp is too fast to grab or too strong to control or so tech that they can reverse and/or control you, THEN U DON'T GRAB HIM. You stay at range and potshot him, throw of his rhythm, get him to show his hand, w/out being able to eff slow you down or control when and how you attack.

as u said earlier you as a practitioner are arguing semantics w/someone who either has a lack of knowledge due to limited experience and lack of firsthadn experience; im familiar w/it and the concepts because of research and time spent exchanging tech and sparring. Obv alot of people don't have that experience and aren't humble enough to admit their lack of knowledge and instead argue points they can't def w/people who know better.

 

[Inquisitus]

The wing chun punch is the same one in the video I posted, and you replied to originally.

Stall until I go to sleep. Is that the plan?

Can you just say that karate doesn't use the unique wing chun punching style To stop wasting my time and yours? This is really common knowledge, and noone would argue that.

Panamaican distinctly said a simultaneous block & attack but didn't refer specifically to a wing chun style punch. Whether you use a WC style strike in the movement demonstrated in the HW vid seems like a moot point.

Other styles of karate (Isshin Ryu) make extensive use of a vertical fist punch but not the same power generation style or hitting surface.

 

[411dd]

This is still the closest video of a contact sparring match between a WC stylist and other stylist posted. It's complete with a wet concrete floor and resulting slipping.

We know roughly what the skill level of the hosts are and can only assume the WC guys are also proficient.

Both sides got their licks in but the interesting result is the "boxing" punches were tooling the WC at the end and moving the head obviously caused misses which could be capitalized on. Moving the head also seemed as effective as trapping when in trouble and in close. In fact, i couldn't discern any trapping but it may be because both sides just decided to go cyclic and damn the torpedoes. Round punches were pretty effective especially as head movement was used.

My takeaway is how effective "boxing" is and going cyclical on a guy causes lots of defensive issues. However, knowing your opponent will do that negates the initiative.

One host is a pro fighter, and the other is a very tough guy w/ alot of experience against other styles. it's not a fair comparison, to judge one style vs another by that vid.

 

[Nefron]

One host is a pro fighter, and the other is a very tough guy w/ alot of experience against other styles. it's not a fair comparison, to judge one style vs another by that vid.

Yeah, because wing chun can't deal with trained fighters.

 

[411dd]

Panamaican distinctly said a simultaneous block & attack but didn't refer specifically to a wing chun style punch. Whether you use a WC style strike in the movement demonstrated in the HW vid seems like a moot point.

Other styles of karate (Isshin Ryu) make extensive use of a vertical fist punch but not the same power generation style or hitting surface.

it's not a moot point because those two things are the difference between a technique being karate or WC.

The block=WC or Karate (as stated in the video)

The punch=WC

The footwork=WC

The technique as a whole came from WC

 

[411dd]

And the trained fighter has no answer for trapping range other than attempting to exit trapping range.

 

[Da_Rev_Ong]

Any videos of Wing Chun working in a street fight?

I find it slightly disturbing that the comment "Any videos of _____ working in a street fight?" has become a carte blanche statement making the wholesale disregard of over 300 years of martial history and culture completely acceptable. These young folks are truly spoiled with their digitally plugged-in, microwave, exhibitionist trappings of modern technology.

Too bad it doesn't make the person posing the question any less ignorant of the subject matter.

 

[Inquisitus]

And the trained fighter has no answer for trapping range other than attempting to exit trapping range.

What is wrong with moving out of range (either further away or clinching) for specific actions your opponent is trying to do?

it's not a moot point because those two things are the difference between a technique being karate or WC.

The block=WC or Karate (as stated in the video)

The punch=WC

The footwork=WC

The technique as a whole came from WC

The technique came from WC (we'll take that as granted for this discussion) but so what? Whether it originated from WC or whatever doesn't matter, the important part is the effective parry & counterstrike. This is why i said it's a moot point whether you use a WC or whatever strike.

FYI, moving into an opponent is not exclusive to WC.

and the other is a very tough guy w/ alot of experience against other styles. it's not a fair comparison

This goes to the heart of the effectiveness of any style and insularity. How can WC call itself an effective fighting art if it can't deal with a guy who's got training? Also, we don't know how experienced the WC guy is. He seemed pretty advanced and is also used to that type of sparring.

BTW, Jimmy has pretty poor striking skills (see the MT episode). I believe he's more of grappler. The other guy is also tough but not a very technical striker.

 

[411dd]

What is wrong with moving out of range (either further away or clinching) for specific actions your opponent is trying to do?

Because he is in a wing chun competition not a k1 fight.

Because he was in a wingchun comp not a k1 fight.
The technique came from WC (we'll take that as granted for this discussion) but so what? Whether it originated from WC or whatever doesn't matter, the important part is the effective parry & counterstrike. This is why i said it's a moot point whether you use a WC or whatever strike.

FYI, moving into an opponent is not exclusive to WC.

Because this thread is about the techniques of wing chun being bullshit. If it has effective techniques, like say of Krav maga, then it is not.
This goes to the heart of the effectiveness of any style and insularity. How can WC call itself an effective fighting art if it can't deal with a guy who's got training? Also, we don't know how experienced the WC guy is. He seemed pretty advanced and is also used to that type of sparring.

The point is that adding wing chun to your training will address trapping range, one of the ranges of fighting, and make you a more complete fighter, instead of getting vitor belforted. I have never bashed any martial arts. Why is this a WC vs MMA thread, or a trapping range sucks ass, why not incorpoate WC into mma and address trapping range?
BTW, Jimmy has pretty poor striking skills (see the MT episode). I believe he's more of grappler. The other guy is also tough but not a very technical striker.

...

 

[Inquisitus]

I find it slightly disturbing that the comment "Any videos of _____ working in a street fight?" has become a carte blanche statement making the wholesale disregard of over 300 years of martial history and culture completely acceptable. These young folks are truly spoiled with their digitally plugged-in, microwave, exhibitionist trappings of modern technology.

Too bad it doesn't make the person posing the question any less ignorant of the subject matter.

Love the red herring btw.

The body of evidence shows that some striking arts, due to the way they train, are more effective than others. This same body of evidence is not based on hearsay or anecdotes from people who have investment in the art they're defending.

300 years of martial history can be disregarded like the gun made melee weapons 2nd string.

 

[411dd]

Love the red herring btw.

The body of evidence shows that some striking arts, due to the way they train, are more effective than others. This same body of evidence is not based on hearsay or anecdotes from people who have investment in the art they're defending.

300 years of martial history can be disregarded like the gun made melee weapons 2nd string.

Here's where you are mistaken. WC is just as much( or more than) of a grappling art as a striking art. Trapping is grappling. I suspect that is why Carlson Gracie likes it.