Why isn't kickboxing more popular?

[SuperLuigi]

There are hours of Lethwei fights out there there for anyone looking for small/no glove kickfighting.

 

[Azam]

Kickboxing is exactly the same as it was in the 90's - that is the problem.

MMA in the 90's is not the same as now - the rules changed and adapted with the times so they better suited what audiences wanted to see and provided better entertainment value.

Kickboxing on the other hand has stayed static rule set wise since the 90's. I mean even the round structure is the same, mins x rounds, rules more or less even same kind of regulated equipment.

What you're watching with kickboxing is a sport that developed in the 90's (yes earlier but K1 is what made kickboxing global) for 90's tastes and what we're watching now is a sport that is still catered to 90's tastes.

K1 was originally so popular because it pitted different stand up styles against one another - this brought in a bigger audience (karate audience, mt audience, kickboxing audience etc) and even casual fans as they wanted to see style v style match ups - eventually it became kickboxing centric and no longer style vs style - so now only really appeals to kickboxing fans or die-hard combat sports fans.

I'd change the round structure, remove the boxing gloves add mma gloves, add stand-up grappling like clinching, trips, sweeps and try to get as many styles as possible to compete - so we can see style vs style match ups.

 

[Kanka]

Kickboxing is exactly the same as it was in the 90's - that is the problem.

MMA in the 90's is not the same as now - the rules changed and adapted with the times so they better suited what audiences wanted to see and provided better entertainment value.

Kickboxing on the other hand has stayed static rule set wise since the 90's. I mean even the round structure is the same, mins x rounds, rules more or less even same kind of regulated equipment.

What you're watching with kickboxing is a sport that developed in the 90's (yes earlier but K1 is what made kickboxing global) for 90's tastes and what we're watching now is a sport that is still catered to 90's tastes.

K1 was originally so popular because it pitted different stand up styles against one another - this brought in a bigger audience (karate audience, mt audience, kickboxing audience etc) and even casual fans as they wanted to see style v style match ups - eventually it became kickboxing centric and no longer style vs style - so now only really appeals to kickboxing fans or die-hard combat sports fans.

I'd change the round structure, remove the boxing gloves add mma gloves, add stand-up grappling like clinching, trips, sweeps and try to get as many styles as possible to compete - so we can see style vs style match ups.

You already have caged muay thai, lethwei, and muay thai card chuek but it's not popular either.

 

[Snubnoze707]

Kickboxing is exactly the same as it was in the 90's - that is the problem.

MMA in the 90's is not the same as now - the rules changed and adapted with the times so they better suited what audiences wanted to see and provided better entertainment value.

Kickboxing on the other hand has stayed static rule set wise since the 90's. I mean even the round structure is the same, mins x rounds, rules more or less even same kind of regulated equipment.

What you're watching with kickboxing is a sport that developed in the 90's (yes earlier but K1 is what made kickboxing global) for 90's tastes and what we're watching now is a sport that is still catered to 90's tastes.

K1 was originally so popular because it pitted different stand up styles against one another - this brought in a bigger audience (karate audience, mt audience, kickboxing audience etc) and even casual fans as they wanted to see style v style match ups - eventually it became kickboxing centric and no longer style vs style - so now only really appeals to kickboxing fans or die-hard combat sports fans.

I'd change the round structure, remove the boxing gloves add mma gloves, add stand-up grappling like clinching, trips, sweeps and try to get as many styles as possible to compete - so we can see style vs style match ups.

What kind of logic is this? What has MMA done to its rules to specifically make things more entertaining since the 90's? Kickboxing actually has had rule changes in an attempt to make it more entertaining specifically limiting the clinch (something I disagree with). As far as style vs style going away, your telling me that didn't happen to MMA? It's been a way more drastic change for MMA in style matchups. You still get MT base, Dutch base, Karate base style matchups in Kickboxing.

 

[Yodsanan]

Kickboxing is exactly the same as it was in the 90's - that is the problem.

MMA in the 90's is not the same as now - the rules changed and adapted with the times so they better suited what audiences wanted to see and provided better entertainment value.

Kickboxing on the other hand has stayed static rule set wise since the 90's. I mean even the round structure is the same, mins x rounds, rules more or less even same kind of regulated equipment.

What you're watching with kickboxing is a sport that developed in the 90's (yes earlier but K1 is what made kickboxing global) for 90's tastes and what we're watching now is a sport that is still catered to 90's tastes.

K1 was originally so popular because it pitted different stand up styles against one another - this brought in a bigger audience (karate audience, mt audience, kickboxing audience etc) and even casual fans as they wanted to see style v style match ups - eventually it became kickboxing centric and no longer style vs style - so now only really appeals to kickboxing fans or die-hard combat sports fans.

I'd change the round structure, remove the boxing gloves add mma gloves, add stand-up grappling like clinching, trips, sweeps and try to get as many styles as possible to compete - so we can see style vs style match ups.

Yes, more rules is what Kickboxing needs.

 

[Tayski]

I think the gloves are supposed to protect the hands, not the face.

Originally to protect the hands, but I can assure you it definitely protects the face too...

 

[Tayski]

Kickboxing actually has had rule changes in an attempt to make it more entertaining specifically limiting the clinch (something I disagree with).

Most of my friends who are just casuals to combat sports (they only watch a bit of MMA now and then) find Kickboxing boring mostly because of the referee having to step in to stop the clinching/hugging every few seconds saying "BREAK", "NO CLINCHING", "STOP", "NO CLINCH".

Even though my base is not Muay Thai, I definitely agree that clinching, grabbing, throws and sweeps should be allowed in Kickboxing and the referee should only have to step in when one fighter lands on the floor.

IMO the only things to forbid in Kickboxing are elbows and headbutts (they tend to stop fights because of cuts and really disfigure fighters). We still get to see those in Muay Thai and Lethwei anyway.

 

[Kanka]

Originally to protect the hands, but I can assure you it definitely protects the face too...

Against cuts yeah, but they also make you hold back less when punching

 

[Tayski]

Against cuts yeah, but they also make you hold back less when punching

When I watch Lethwei fights (even though it's not completely bareknuckle), they don't really seem to hold back with punches lol

 

[TonyK]

The problem is that there's nothing that kickboxers are the best at. Boxers have better hands, and Nak Muays have better kicks/knees/elbows. Many times kickboxing, even at the highest level of it, feels and looks like a very low level boxing match with a few kicks thrown in.

 

[Azam]

You already have caged muay thai, lethwei, and muay thai card chuek but it's not popular either.

All those events are one of a kind and national based events. Of course you're not going to get the same popularity as Muay Thai which has events all over the world and isn't just restricted to Thailand. We tend to forget for a large part of Muay Thai's history it wasn't particularly popular outside of it's national demographic - it's only recently that its become a global thing because those that went there to learn brought it back with them.

Unfortunately nothing really exists like that for either of those events/formats you mentioned.

What kind of logic is this? What has MMA done to its rules to specifically make things more entertaining since the 90's? Kickboxing actually has had rule changes in an attempt to make it more entertaining specifically limiting the clinch (something I disagree with). As far as style vs style going away, your telling me that didn't happen to MMA? It's been a way more drastic change for MMA in style matchups. You still get MT base, Dutch base, Karate base style matchups in Kickboxing.

MMA has done a lot of changing of its rules to make things more entertaining since the 90's - a simple google search will give you a whole list and it's long. The most recent change is the definition of what a grounded fighter is (all four limbs need to be touching the ground) - which allows more flexibility with strikes that can now be thrown when someone is partially grounded like knees for example.

Kickboxing has had very little rule changes - how long ago was the limiting the clinch rule - over a decade ago. Can you think of any significant changes since then?

Style vs style is still pretty much in MMA - most fighters have very different ways of going about fighting - you have Maia, Wonderboy, Machida, Jones (all drastically different from one another - to the point we associate Maia with bjj, Wonderboy with karate, Jones with greco etc) - because the playing field is so large styles wise & technique wise - you'll always have people that are significantly different.

In kickboxing you don't really have that anymore. Even though there are some with a karate style base and significantly more with a dutch or MT base - it's become generic - back in the 90's there was much more variety because it was a young sport and you had fighters from all backgrounds compete with relatively little kickboxing experience like Hug, Filho, Greco etc etc so they relied more on their background arts - as the sports evolved you have karate fighters that aren't really doing that anymore but straight up kickboxing with a karate kick thrown in now and then. The style vs style matchups are pretty much gone.

Even with MT - removing the ability to clinch/elbow means kickboxing has tilted more to generic - when you restrict stand up to kickboxing specifically and don't allow arts to be able to use there entire repertoire of techniques like clinching, elbows, sweeps etc - you're going to have a more generic sport.

If I was a kickboxing promoter I'd do away with the gloves and introduce the 4oz, change the round/time format, allow stand up styles to use full repertoires, add stand-up grappling like foot sweeps, hip toss, clinching and try to get as many styles to compete as possible.

Yes, more rules is what Kickboxing needs.

No I didn't say kickboxing needs more rules. You just said that.

I said kickboxing needs to adapt its rules and evolve with the times rather than be stuck back in the 90's.

It's the resistance to change that has partially killed kickboxing as a sport - as evidenced in this sub-forum & thread by saying that it doesn't need to or that it isn't the problem when it clearly is.

Even boxing went through it's changes to get to where it is now - if we had it all your guys way we'd still have boxing fights under London Prize Ring Rules.

 

[Shadess]

This sub died because sherdog had 0 interest in moderating and trolls ran/run rampant for ages.

There is more kickboxing now than there ever has been so I have no idea what you are talking about it being partially killed.

There's also a bunch of variation in the rules. K-1 isn't the same as it was before they handle the clinching differently. GoH/RoH just completely changed their ring. Wu Lin Feng has tweaked their rules during their run. Kunlun brought back the 5 judges. Enfusion changed their rules etc. etc.

Oh yeah and there is a ton of viable weight classes that basically didn't exist in the 90s you speak of.

People who don't seem to follow the scene talking about it not changing? How would you know?

 

[Kanka]

I usually hate the no clunch rule in K-1, but the last K-1 60 kg tournament was very nice. I liked how the fighters were evading and countering instead of clinching up. Non stop action. But of course, in other fights where tge clinch is used more, it gets annoying when the ref breaks the clinch. I would say i prefer Kunlun Rules in kickboxing but it's cool with variation sometimes. I think the concept of mma gloves is alright. Japanese and Thai fighters would do well, but dutch guys would have to adapt their defense.

 

[Azam]

This sub died because sherdog had 0 interest in moderating and trolls ran/run rampant for ages.

There is more kickboxing now than there ever has been so I have no idea what you are talking about it being partially killed.

There's also a bunch of variation in the rules. K-1 isn't the same as it was before they handle the clinching differently. GoH/RoH just completely changed their ring. Wu Lin Feng has tweaked their rules during their run. Kunlun brought back the 5 judges. Enfusion changed their rules etc. etc.

Oh yeah and there is a ton of viable weight classes that basically didn't exist in the 90s you speak of.

People who don't seem to follow the scene talking about it not changing? How would you know?

Let me get this straight because I have a different opinion to you I'm a troll lmao.

This sub-forum died because unlike the standup forum - posters here post shit like that ^^. Maybe I should post a picture of someone waving their dick around to counter that - that would usually be the standard response in this sub-forum.

Kunlun has only been around for 2 years, Wu Lin Feng is only popular in China because it's China vs the rest of the world every card & the Chinese tune into it. Enfusion is the only one you can make a legit case for.

But I wouldn't call something popular if the financial reward is no greater than the standard office worker (that being the financial reward for the top tier of the sport) - especially given you put your body on the line. It pales in comparison to the financial rewards you'd get back in the day. Hell I think even snooker is more popular than kickboxing.

As for the rules I concede I could be wrong because I don't watch as much as I once did - but from what I casually observe no real significant changes. If I watch a 90's fight & a fight in the present - rules aren't that far apart. Yes there are new weight classes but I'm talking about rules of engagement here - not the addition of new weight classes.

Also my comment regarding style matchups - please prove me wrong if what I'm saying is puke according to you.

I'd like to hear it because I know my karate and I have seen very little if any of it in kickboxing anymore...All I see is karate guys that have been converted to kickboxers that kickbox.

 

[Azam]

how has boxing changed in the last 10 years?

Boxing hasn't needed to change in the last 10 years - it's had well over a hundred years of change already. Unlike MMA, kickboxing or any other combat sport it's become entrenched in our culture. It's had well over a hundred years to do so. Right now it's perfectly in tune to what audiences want to see.

If you compare boxing in the early 20th century to now - there have been big changes.

You do the same for kickboxing - no real significant changes except more weight classes but I'm talking about rules here not weight classes.

 

[AbeRudder]

Kunlun/WLF/K1 do heaps of style vs style. They have a number of guys coming from sanda, karate and traditional muay thai backgrounds. Most of the notable k1 fighters have distinct styles....kaew, yamazaki, taiga, bulaid/glunder etc.

 

[Azam]

Kunlun/WLF/K1 do heaps of style vs style. They have a number of guys coming from sanda, karate and traditional muay thai backgrounds. Most of the notable k1 fighters have distinct styles....kaew, yamazaki, taiga, bulaid/glunder etc.

I've done Karate for a while - I wouldn't describe what I see as Karate but kickboxing with one or two karate kicks thrown in - I'm sure there are some karate guys that may disagree (there are a few exceptions though like Noiri - but even he's very kickboxing-ish but most of the "karate" guys are more kickboxers tbh). I wouldn't call it sanda either when they can't do throws/trips (exclusion being WLF since it's based in China). I wouldn't describe what I see as MT either because of the no clinch or elbows.

So to me they aren't style vs style matchups - I'm sure there are on rare occasion a few like you mentioned but every kickboxing fight is not a style vs style matchups or if it is it's usually dutch kickboxing or modified MT. Most Kyokushin guys in kickboxing operate under dutch gyms and imo what they do is dutch kickboxing with one or two kyokushin kicks there are a few exceptions though.

The styles differences are much more noticeable with MMA because every stand up style is on a level playing field - so we can see style vs style matchups.

Kickboxing doesn't allow the same freedom - rules wise - every other standup style has to conform to kickboxing so it's not coincidence that after some time everyone will just optimize to kickboxing. Sanshou guys can' trip or throw, MT guys can't clinch/elbow, karate guys can't use smaller gloves or sweeps/throws.

The beauty of the old K1 for me was watching style vs style matchups - because it was new you didn't have the the conformity to the kickboxing ruleset yet at least among other stand up styles. So when I watched Hug I could identify him with Kyokushin - same goes for Filho.

 

[Azam]

I usually hate the no clunch rule in K-1, but the last K-1 60 kg tournament was very nice. I liked how the fighters were evading and countering instead of clinching up. Non stop action. But of course, in other fights where tge clinch is used more, it gets annoying when the ref breaks the clinch. I would say i prefer Kunlun Rules in kickboxing but it's cool with variation sometimes. I think the concept of mma gloves is alright. Japanese and Thai fighters would do well, but dutch guys would have to adapt their defense.

If caged muay thai is any indicator - I think Thai fighters would have defensive issues with the small gloves at least Pornsanae did. I think Dutch guys would be better off but they'd have the same defensive issues. I think you'd definitely see guys with better boxing have much more success than they currently do.

 

[Kanka]

If caged muay thai is any indicator - I think Thai fighters would have defensive issues with the small gloves at least Pornsanae did. I think Dutch guys would be better off but they'd have the same defensive issues. I think you'd definitely see guys with better boxing have much more success than they currently do.

Pornsanae probably has the worst defense out of known thai fighters, and he was like 31 or 32 in that fight. He used to be more technical when he was young, i've heard.

If you look at some better fighters like Kaimukkhao, Sangmanee, Saenchai, Superlek, Pakorn, Jomthong they don't rely alot on their gloves for punch defense. Use of distance, trapping, clinching, and teeping is more common.

 

[AbeRudder]

You're confusing me a little.....You're saying that style vs style matchups don't exist currently because of the current ruleset....but the ruleset has barely changed meaning that old k1 never had style vs style fights either? So Changpuek vs Kaman wasn't a style vs style match up because Changpuek couldn't clinch or elbow? By the same logic was Filho vs Rick Roufus not a style match up because Filho was punching to the head and Roufus was allowed to low kick.....