Why isn't kickboxing more popular?

[007]

I like it

 

[D.R.H.]

The ISKA is starting a big push with youth kickboxing here in the states right now, along with their youth mma push. I hope that will help, with more kids growing up with kickboxing, and their parents being exposed to it. Can't hurt.

 

[Karaev fan]

The ISKA is starting a big push with youth kickboxing here in the states right now, along with their youth mma push. I hope that will help, with more kids growing up with kickboxing, and their parents being exposed to it. Can't hurt.

Youth kickboxing has been an immense boon in the Japanese scene. Noiri, Urabe, Takeru, Nasukawa, Kimura, Taiga were all products of the Koshien/Youth KB scene. Sure the Koshien generation didn't come to life in time for them to help FEG, but that investment in talent is effectively all Japan KB is riding on these days (save for some old school holdouts like Umeno). Smartest thing K-1 Japan is doing now is rolling out their "100 year plan". Setting up a network of own-branded gyms and amateur events ranging from elementary schoolers to +35 year olds that widens the base of talent and provides a clear roadmap to becoming a K-1 fighter.

 

[Azam]

I understand where you're coming from, but I also think its something inevitable and not necessarily a reason for K-1's decline.

There are plenty of legit karateka in K-1 Japan ranging from shinkarate types like Noiri, kyokushin types like Komiyama, shotokan types like Yamazaki and even kudo guys like Akimoto. Despite their arsenal of flashy kicks though (well, besides Akimoto), they all have a working knowledge of boxing and you don't see anyone with no face punching experience going in there like Filho and Hug looking for the ichigeki. When a sport matures, you just can't be competitive when you have gaping holes in the fundamentals. Just look at MMA. That was supposed to be a no bars hold free for all, yet now everyone seems to coalesce to the same generic boxer-wrestler or muay thai-jiu-jitsu archetype. I would also note that this general convergence of styles hasn't really hurt the UFC's popularity (though I do miss the guys fighting K-1 in gis).

The moment you set a ruleset and popularize it, you're going to have a generation of fighters optimized for it. Can't be stopped.

Yeah I agree with you a 100% it is inevitable - it's happened with every combat sport.

The reason I think it is partially the reason for K-1's decline is because what drew the crowds initially besides great martial talent was that K-1 was an avenue for all standup styles to compete to see who is the best. It wasn't begun with the purpose of starting a kickboxing organization - more so to provide a fair ground for all standup styles to compete in as well as allow professionals in the Seidokaikan organisation like Hug, M.Thompson, Taiei Kin, Sataake, Greco etc to make a living as professionals - as well as some Kyokushin fighters that wanted to compete professionally also. Seido started with the knockdown before they eventually moved into the kickboxing area - however unlike last time they stuck with the kickboxing. They were trying to find the best avenue to do these style vs style fights and changed readily when they had to.

People wanted to see who the best standup fighter was - and because you had an openweight open style format you had a bigger audience pool or could cast a wider net than you would otherwise have been able to if it was just kickboxers competing - you had the karate crowd, mt crowd, kickboxing crowd, taekwondo crowd etc etc. I agree to some degree it was also a passing Japanese fad - it was new exciting and bigger than life and to some degree was only a matter of time before the fad passed - pretty much the same happened with MMA too after the pride scandal.

I mean kickboxing already existed in Japan before K-1 came along but it wasn't particularly that popular - so what made K-1 different? There are many variables involved but I think the style vs style one is a significant one.

People want to see standup fighters in other styles compete against each other to see what the best style/fighter is. I think people still want to see that - this is what also draws the casual fans because even they want to see it - they might not particularly like boxing, kickboxing or mt but a style vs style fight draws them in. It's why there was so much hype with McGregor vs Mayweather more hype than you'd find in one singular sport - and more audience viewership.

It's also very easy to empirically prove - go to any video sharing site like youtube and the most viewed videos are those where there are two fighters of different styles for that type of video search. Like if we typed in Muay Thai or even Kyokushin Karate for example - the videos with the most views are the this vs this style. Most of these videos are style vs style fights or 90s K-1 or Seido.




Regardless of my own views of karateka competing in kickboxing (many who I feel aren't really karate but more kickboxing) - shinkarate is a great example because even though they are karate they compete under kickboxing rules - it's like if I learned a karate style and competed in kickboxing from the beginning, over time my skillset will optimize itself for kickboxing to the detriment of the karate I'm learning - how much of the karate I learn becomes applicable to kickboxing - how much of it remains over time - how much of it is just pure kickboxing? Can you call it Karate if you just punch/kick?

There is a reason why karate is all about the ichigeki because traditional Karate did not have the combinations of kickboxing. Traditional karate is very much like point karate - an over emphasis on pot shotting or counter/strike because chains combinations go out of the window in a bareknuckle scenario because of the likelihood of breaking your hand. Karate out of all the arts has stayed true to the bareknuckle aspect it originally had. Kyokushin is in that weird zone because even though it is karate - it's sparring format is an entirely different sport (to the detriment of the Karate in the style imo - hence why I left Kyokushin & started kudo a year ago).


I'd add that the generic MMA style fighter doesn't hold true either - everyone has specialisms in different areas to the point that the casual fan can distinguish them apart (like a style vs style fight) - nearly every MMA fight looks like a style vs style fight because it's so open-ended in a way kickboxing is not. The problem with kickboxing is it's harder for the casual fan to distinguish the style of either fighter because it's kickboxing (a singular style) - so what they see are two relatively similar kickboxers or two punch/kick fighters fighting one another whereas in MMA two fighters that are different from one another - at least visually. It was easier for fans to see style vs style in the beginning of K1 but as the sport evolved it become much harder to.

I'm talking here in general terms because there are a few style vs style fights in kickboxing but they aren't there to the degree in early K-1 which is my point (the exception being wlf).

Sorry for the late reply & long ass post.

 

[Thycidides]

I think its comic that despite threads with titles like the OP kick fighting is growing in popularity in China and is more prevalent in the USA thanks to Glory being on fight pass.

Also while there are a lot of different rule sets Sanchai fights the more or less same way whether he wears big gloves or small gloves. I've seen him fight in Glory, Lumpini and Thai fight with big gloves and small gloves.

However, how Sanchai fights is really different than Pornsanae despite both of them being over 30 and being Mauy Thai fighters.

I think people overstate the impact the size of gloves have on strategy. Scoring criteria is more important which is why despite having 8 oz gloves a lot of Thai fighters in the stadiums have lower punch output than some USA MMA fighters or European kickboxers.

I have only recently started training Mauy Thai as a hobby and following it as a sport and I am amazed by the lack of knowledge out there. What Joe Rogan talks about as Mauy Thai and what MT looks like in Thailand are very different.

I see a lot more variety of kicks and throws than in Mauy Thai fights nowadays than I did in old K1 fights. Same for MMA. Hardly anyone could through a kick in 90's MMA. Big judo throws were uncommon too. Today most fighters use kicks and hip throws are growing more common after Ronda use them.

I think many posters in this thread are confusing their lack of interest in combat sport to a larger trend which isn't the case.

 

[Shadess]

I think many posters in this thread are confusing their lack of interest in combat sport to a larger trend which isn't the case.

I think this is pretty true. Just to give an example Rise of Heroes, that I would wager like max 4 people on this forum have even seen a second of has now had 3 weeks of broadcasts I think. 1st week they ranked 3rd in the country for that, albeit not on the greatest, timeslot and 3rd week the 2nd. But hey kickboxing is dead because there is no style matchups.

...no, you just don't follow it. And it's fine to not know whats happening in China when it's not covered very well in english at all but when people clearly do not look into things and then just vomit random words here it comes off as really ignorant.

 

[Karaev fan]

I think this is pretty true. Just to give an example Rise of Heroes, that I would wager like max 4 people on this forum have even seen a second of has now had 3 weeks of broadcasts I think. 1st week they ranked 3rd in the country for that, albeit not on the greatest, timeslot and 3rd week the 2nd. But hey kickboxing is dead because there is no style matchups.

...no, you just don't follow it. And it's fine to not know whats happening in China when it's not covered very well in english at all but when people clearly do not look into things and then just say random vomit-y things it comes off as really ignorant.

Glory of Hero's gets 60K people into a stadium. Kunlun Fight is valued at $350M in a series B. K-1 Japan is the most watched content on Abema sports. Heck, that random K-1 Euro event got 1M viewers in Serbia alone based on something called PinkTV (presumably an softcore homoerotica channel). All this within the last year.

Look at how dead KB is.

...

English speakers somehow think Glory is the end all be all of kickboxing. That hasn't been anywhere near the truth since 2014ish. Heck, its considered just another regional league in some non-US/Euro regions. The KB world is much more massive than people realize.

 

[Aikidoka]

Didn't read lol.

 

[caesar]

Depends where you are man, here in Japan, there's kickboxing gyms all over, way more than hybrid MMA gyms.

 

[ChrisMMAFightgr]

A lot of people here have given good reasons and good counter reasons. Of course kickboxing is dead, and in my country (GREECE) its has been the most popular local combat sport mainly because of Mike Zambidis.
i ve been watching a lot of western kickboxing for some years now and i have to say, besides other reasons,
kickboxing doesnt have a "thing".
MMAs thing is close to real combat and a complete fighter.
Boxing has (besides being older) the sweet science thing that goes with the focus on upper body and movement.
Kickboxings thing, who is the best striker, goes somewhere in the middle and cant stand out.
Also, i have to say that between the 3, its the one that has progressed the least as a style. In MMA in fewer years you got from street brawler, to bjj guy, to wrestlers with sub defence and gnp, to boxer wrestlers, to thai/bjj fighter, to even more varietions these days. And special cases too, Karatekas like machida, guys like Conor who mixes a traditional martial arts stance and kicks with boxing, Dominick Cruz with his "weird" neo footwork and Mighty Mouse with his awesomnes.
you dont really see that in kickboxing who basically had MMA to compete not the staple that is boxing.
But i think Asia is a better breeding ground for the sport to progress and reach bigger audiences, its doesnt have to be big in the US.

 

[Snubnoze707]

And special cases too, Karatekas like machida, guys like Conor who mixes a traditional martial arts stance and kicks with boxing, Dominick Cruz with his "weird" neo footwork and Mighty Mouse with his awesomnes.
you dont really see that in kickboxing

You don't see shit like that which doesn't work in Kickboxing, but you still see a way wider range of effective strikes consistnetly in Kickboxing. I don't even see how this is debatable.

 

[ChrisMMAFightgr]

you see a wider range of strikes in kickboxing than in MMA? i dont think so. Also, "shit like that" was thought to not work on MMA too, till some talented guys made it work. Thats what i dont see in kickboxing.

You don't see shit like that which doesn't work in Kickboxing, but you still see a way wider range of effective strikes consistnetly in Kickboxing. I don't even see how this is debatable.

 

[SuperLuigi]

you see a wider range of strikes in kickboxing than in MMA? i dont think so. Also, "shit like that" was thought to not work on MMA too, till some talented guys made it work. Thats what i dont see in kickboxing.

Raymond Daniels looking great with an unorthodox style against good guys then getting smashed at the top seems awfully similar to Machida's career.

 

[Karaev fan]

you see a wider range of strikes in kickboxing than in MMA? i dont think so. Also, "shit like that" was thought to not work on MMA too, till some talented guys made it work. Thats what i dont see in kickboxing.

There are plenty of guys doing crazy spinning shit or boxing/TKD combo or traditional karate type ichigeki-hunting or fast-twitch in-and-out footwork in kickboxing.

What you don't see is kickboxing fans salivating over some flavor of the week style and claiming its some sort of "new generation". Its because those styles have consistently existed in striking arts and everyone at a high level generally understands how to fight those styles. It amuses me how MMA fans somehow cyclically falls in and out of enchantment with "karate" without even being aware of the differences between full contact, semi-contact, and traditional. They aren't seeing more diverse striking, they're just ignorant of stuff that's been out there forever.

 

[ChrisMMAFightgr]

Raymond Daniels looking great with an unorthodox style against good guys then getting smashed at the top seems awfully similar to Machida's career.

Machida became the champ undefeated knocking out 2 other undefeated champs on the way, one of which was the previous champ, then fought for the belt on the lower weight class at 35 -36 yo. i know Daniels but he is not enough to make a splash.

There are plenty of guys doing crazy spinning shit or boxing/TKD combo or traditional karate type ichigeki-hunting or fast-twitch in-and-out footwork in kickboxing.

What you don't see is kickboxing fans salivating over some flavor of the week style and claiming its some sort of "new generation". Its because those styles have consistently existed in striking arts and everyone at a high level generally understands how to fight those styles. It amuses me how MMA fans somehow cyclically falls in and out of enchantment with "karate" without even being aware of the differences between full contact, semi-contact, and traditional. They aren't seeing more diverse striking, they're just ignorant of stuff that's been out there forever.

So the examples i gave are flavour of the week? Instead of calling me ignorant on Karate or Kickboxing or something maybe you should try and understand MMA better of maybe just what i m saying better.

I didnt say i want to see people fight in kickboxing LIKE Machida or Cruz, i mean seeing kickboxers who bring new stuff on the table that previously you didnt see or you thought they wouldnt work.

By definition, MMA being a mixed martial art, will have more parameters ergo more posibilities for new mixes.

i didnt say anything new, i talked about stuff combat sports fans have said before about kickboxing. You might disagree with it but i doesnt make it wrong.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Machida became the champ undefeated knocking out 2 other undefeated champs on the way, one of which was the previous champ, then fought for the belt on the lower weight class at 35 -36 yo. i know Daniels but he is not enough to make a splash.

He was enough to be champion of the same bowl league that Thompson was part of and has a win over him. You are certainly right about him not having as much success in KB though.

 

[Karaev fan]

So the examples i gave are flavour of the week? Instead of calling me ignorant on Karate or Kickboxing or something maybe you should try and understand MMA better of maybe just what i m saying better.

I didnt say i want to see people fight in kickboxing LIKE Machida or Cruz, i mean seeing kickboxers who bring new stuff on the table that previously you didnt see or you thought they wouldnt work.

By definition, MMA being a mixed martial art, will have more parameters ergo more posibilities for new mixes.

i didnt say anything new, i talked about stuff combat sports fans have said before about kickboxing. You might disagree with it but i doesnt make it wrong.

Saenchai, Daniels, Adesanya, Tenshin, Yamazaki, Bulaid/Jaraya, Yi Long... plenty of guys trying new things at this very moment. Sometimes they work, sometimes its a gimmick. Either way, people who say kickboxers don't try new things is just not watching kickboxing. Heck the whole realm of variation and experimentation in kickboxing was why I got into kickboxing. Nothing like watching a WW Thai flying headkick a SHW to the land of living death. Or seeing kyokushin dudes Brazilian kick some fools.

There is plenty of crazy stuff going on in KB. We just accept the experimentation as a spice in the sport instead of buying into the hypecycle for the flavor of the month ("Karate! No neo-movement! No precision > power!")

 

[ChrisMMAFightgr]

Again, i dont know if its like that in Kickboxing but the examples i mentioned for MMA are definetly NOT "the flavour of the month" i talked about styles that wrote the MMA history and were build by legends and longtime champs. They evolved the sport.
I didnt say kickboxing is completely stale, i said it doesnt have the same rate of evolution that you see in MMA. Also i said at my first post, that this problem is mostly in GLORY and western promotions and that in Asian promotions you can see more and more different stuff happening. Saenchai is such a legend in Thai and just debuted in GLORY for example.
I dont know if those examples you give evolve the sport as much as it needs too but if i, who might not be as hardcore as you in the whole of kickboxing, but watch a lot of it (being a combat -albeit MMA based writer) cant see it then maybe its not enough or its just not in the mainstream of our part of the world. Like i said in the oppening post.

Saenchai, Daniels, Adesanya, Tenshin, Yamazaki, Bulaid/Jaraya, Yi Long... plenty of guys trying new things at this very moment. Sometimes they work, sometimes its a gimmick. Either way, people who say kickboxers don't try new things is just not watching kickboxing. Heck the whole realm of variation and experimentation in kickboxing was why I got into kickboxing. Nothing like watching a WW Thai flying headkick a SHW to the land of living death. Or seeing kyokushin dudes Brazilian kick some fools.

There is plenty of crazy stuff going on in KB. We just accept the experimentation as a spice in the sport instead of buying into the hypecycle for the flavor of the month ("Karate! No neo-movement! No precision > power!")

 

[Thycidides]

Well hopefully more top Thai fighters will fight in Glory and other western promotions. I worry that people are more interested in national rivalry than exciting fights though.

 

[null]

Well hopefully more top Thai fighters will fight in Glory and other western promotions. I worry that people are more interested in national rivalry than exciting fights though.

I'm American and I don't care about nationality when I am watching fights . I don't root for or bet on fighters in MMA just because they are American and I don't do it for kickboxing either. Just want to see great fighters and great fights.