Why isn't kickboxing more popular?

[Azam]

Pornsanae probably has the worst defense out of known thai fighters.

But he is a legit Thai veteran with wins over a lot of fighters - so his boxing was good enough where he wasn't made to pay for it.

I'm sure there are some Thai fighters that wouldn't have the same issues.

 

[Kanka]

But he is a legit Thai veteran with wins over a lot of fighters - so his boxing was good enough where he wasn't made to pay for it.

I'm sure there are some Thai fighters that wouldn't have the same issues.

Read my post again. And yeah he is famous because of his knockouts but he was in no way an elite fighter at that time. Prior to that fight, since 2010 he had only won 4 out of 18 fights, and after that, he went on and got knocked out in like every other fight.

Not a very good example to be honest. In fact, a terrible example.

 

[Azam]

You're confusing me a little.....You're saying that style vs style matchups don't exist currently because of the current ruleset....but the ruleset has barely changed meaning that old k1 never had style vs style fights either? So Changpuek vs Kaman wasn't a style vs style match up because Changpuek couldn't clinch or elbow? By the same logic was Filho vs Rick Roufus not a style match up because Filho was punching to the head and Roufus was allowed to low kick.....

No I'm saying the ruleset doesn't allow for style vs style matchups.

I'm saying in the past style vs style matchups existed because K1 was new - everyone stuck to what they knew & it was trial by error. No-one had really conformed to the ruleset yet because it was new.

That's why despite the rules style vs style matchups were common - over time as kickboxers evolved everyone conformed more to the kickboxing ruleset - it happens with any/every sport. You won't find top tier kickboxers now with hands like Filho or Hug for example and it was because of that you don't find guys with unique skill sets like the kicking styles/repertoire of Hug or Filho. That's my point.

Changpuek struggled precisely because he didn't conform to the kickboxing ruleset - it was entertaining as hell.

That's what made the early K1 entertaining and why every now and then I'll watch an old K1 fight.

It's sad because K1 was originally created for standup style vs style matchups not kickboxing fights - it unfortunately evolved into that.

 

[Kanka]

No I'm saying the ruleset doesn't allow for style vs style matchups.

I'm saying in the past style vs style matchups existed because K1 was new - everyone stuck to what they knew & it was trial by error. No-one had really conformed to the ruleset yet because it was new.

That's why despite the rules style vs style matchups were common - over time as kickboxers evolved everyone conformed more to the kickboxing ruleset - it happens with any/every sport. You won't find top tier kickboxers now with hands like Filho or Hug for example and it was because of that you don't find guys with unique skill sets like the kicking styles/repertoire of Hug or Filho. That's my point.

Changpuek struggled precisely because he didn't conform to the kickboxing ruleset - it was entertaining as hell.

That's what made the early K1 entertaining and why every now and then I'll watch an old K1 fight.

It's sad because K1 was originally created for standup style vs style matchups not kickboxing fights - it unfortunately evolved into that.

In the 65 kg division, Yamazaki, Kaew, Glunder all have different backgrounds and different styles.

Im glad the sport has evolved. Would be kind of lame if just any thai could go to a kickboxing match and murder the other "standup styles" in the clinch. Would just make them all look bad.

 

[Azam]

Read my post again. And yeah he is famous because of his knockouts but he was in no way an elite fighter at that time. Prior to that fight, since 2010 he had only won 4 out of 18 fights, and after that, he went on and got knocked out in like every other fight.

Not a very good example to be honest. In fact, a terrible example.

He was fighting Tomahawk - no offence to him but you think he would have lost to him under Muay Thai rules? If not I don't think that's a particularly bad example.

 

[Kanka]

He was fighting Tomahawk - no offence to him but you think he would have lost to him under Muay Thai rules? If not I don't think that's a particularly bad example.

Yeah its a horrible example because youre trying to use it to make a point that most thais would have the same problems. They wouldnt.

 

[Azam]

In the 65 kg division, Yamazaki, Kaew, Glunder all have different backgrounds and different styles.

Im glad the sport has evolved. Would be kind of lame if just any thai could go to a kickboxing match and murder the other "standup styles" in the clinch. Would just make them all look bad.

I've already dealt with this in a post above. Not going to repeat myself.

Not really sure that Thai's would go murder other standup styles if you opened up the rules and allowed throws, sweeps, hip throws which are also in other styles. I think it would be a more open affair.

Clinching doesn't do so great with foot sweeps or hip throws - in fact you do half the work by clinching them & giving them leverage to toss you.

Yeah its a horrible example because youre trying to use it to make a point that most thais would have the same problems. They wouldnt.

How would you know they wouldn't? I've already said I'm sure some Thai's wouldn't have difficulties - I think most would though. That's an opinion. Just like yours is an opinion one that you have difficulty elaborating on.

You know full well that under Thai rules the experience gap between Pornsanae & Tomahawk would render your "bad example terrible example" to be bullshit because we both know even though he's aged/past it he would have won - which is why I included that example.

Your butt-hurt about it obviously - why I don't know.

 

[Kanka]

I've already dealt with this in a post above. Not going to repeat myself.

Not really sure that Thai's would go murder other standup styles if you opened up the rules and allowed throws, sweeps, hip throws which are also in other styles. I think it would be a more open affair.

Clinching doesn't do so great with foot sweeps or hip throws - in fact you do half the work by clinching them & giving them leverage to toss you.






How would you know they wouldn't? I've already said I'm sure some Thai's wouldn't have difficulties - I think most would though. That's an opinion. Just like yours is an opinion one that you have difficulty elaborating on.

You know full well that under Thai rules the experience gap between Pornsanae & Tomahawk would render your "bad example terrible example" to be bullshit because we both know even though he's aged/past it he would have won - which is why I included that example.

Your butt-hurt about it obviously - why I don't know.

Yeah if you allowed throws and sweeps it would be even easier for thais (and for Chinese sanda fighters) Just look at Buakaw in his early K-1 days, or Buakaw in the S-1 cup against Toby Imada. Even if takedowns and standing submissions were allowed, Buakaw was the one throwing Toby to the ground.

I've already explained why they wouldnt have the same problems, not sure what's hard to understand about it. Other fighters are simply better, more complete, more dynamic and have much better defense. Pornsanae might have won or lost that fight if it was with big gloves, who knows. He was in a big losing streak after all. I'm definitely not butt hurt there isnt even anything to be butt hurt about.

 

[Kanka]

But he is a legit Thai veteran with wins over a lot of fighters - so his boxing was good enough where he wasn't made to pay for it.

This is about how good his boxing is against good fighters.

 

[Kanka]

So you're telling me these guys (blue pants) would have the same problems as Pornsanae...

 

[AbeRudder]

No I'm saying the ruleset doesn't allow for style vs style matchups.

I'm saying in the past style vs style matchups existed because K1 was new - everyone stuck to what they knew & it was trial by error. No-one had really conformed to the ruleset yet because it was new.

That's why despite the rules style vs style matchups were common - over time as kickboxers evolved everyone conformed more to the kickboxing ruleset - it happens with any/every sport. You won't find top tier kickboxers now with hands like Filho or Hug for example and it was because of that you don't find guys with unique skill sets like the kicking styles/repertoire of Hug or Filho. That's my point.

Changpuek struggled precisely because he didn't conform to the kickboxing ruleset - it was entertaining as hell.

That's what made the early K1 entertaining and why every now and then I'll watch an old K1 fight.

It's sad because K1 was originally created for standup style vs style matchups not kickboxing fights - it unfortunately evolved into that.

I don't see this as the reason why it declined. For starters, if you see a thai in k1 he won't be able to use his whole arsenal but thais that fight in kickboxing have a distinct approach and style. Especially to the casual viewer it won't look that different, you see a thai dude in a thai stance throwing hard kicks that's muay thai. It's why casual fans think buakaw is the muay thai goat. Same goes for karate guys, I see Yamazaki circling around and throwing snap kicks it looks like karate to me (tbh i don't see filho being anymore authentically karate than johannes wolf or yamazaki, he adapted his style to kickboxing too). Most of the guys that were popular during the peak of k1 were kickboxing specialists anyway...Hoost, Hari, Masato, Bonjaksy, Petrosyan etc.

I'm not even a fan of kickboxing rules myself, I'll take thai rules any day. The biggest issue with kickboxing rules is the reffing of the clinch and the time allowed in there. I think Kunlun does the best job of any org in that regard.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

No I'm saying the ruleset doesn't allow for style vs style matchups.

I'm saying in the past style vs style matchups existed because K1 was new - everyone stuck to what they knew & it was trial by error. No-one had really conformed to the ruleset yet because it was new.

That's why despite the rules style vs style matchups were common - over time as kickboxers evolved everyone conformed more to the kickboxing ruleset - it happens with any/every sport. You won't find top tier kickboxers now with hands like Filho or Hug for example and it was because of that you don't find guys with unique skill sets like the kicking styles/repertoire of Hug or Filho. That's my point.

Changpuek struggled precisely because he didn't conform to the kickboxing ruleset - it was entertaining as hell.

That's what made the early K1 entertaining and why every now and then I'll watch an old K1 fight.

It's sad because K1 was originally created for standup style vs style matchups not kickboxing fights - it unfortunately evolved into that.

Or Changpuek struggled because he was a million times smaller than the guys he was fighting.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

I've already dealt with this in a post above. Not going to repeat myself.

Not really sure that Thai's would go murder other standup styles if you opened up the rules and allowed throws, sweeps, hip throws which are also in other styles. I think it would be a more open affair.

Clinching doesn't do so great with foot sweeps or hip throws - in fact you do half the work by clinching them & giving them leverage to toss you.






How would you know they wouldn't? I've already said I'm sure some Thai's wouldn't have difficulties - I think most would though. That's an opinion. Just like yours is an opinion one that you have difficulty elaborating on.

You know full well that under Thai rules the experience gap between Pornsanae & Tomahawk would render your "bad example terrible example" to be bullshit because we both know even though he's aged/past it he would have won - which is why I included that example.

Your butt-hurt about it obviously - why I don't know.

Do you realise that foot sweeps get used all the time in Muay Thai? It's not a game changer. Takedowns of all types get used in Muay Thai as a staple of clinching.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

If I was a kickboxing promoter I'd do away with the gloves and introduce the 4oz, change the round/time format, allow stand up styles to use full repertoires, add stand-up grappling like foot sweeps, hip toss, clinching and try to get as many styles to compete as possible.

This is just bastardised shoot boxing. The S-Cup has always been won by guys with kickboxing and Muay Thai backgrounds; and the fights don't look that different, much of the time, from your run of the mill kickboxing bout.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

I've already dealt with this in a post above. Not going to repeat myself.

Not really sure that Thai's would go murder other standup styles if you opened up the rules and allowed throws, sweeps, hip throws which are also in other styles. I think it would be a more open affair.

Clinching doesn't do so great with foot sweeps or hip throws - in fact you do half the work by clinching them & giving them leverage to toss you.






How would you know they wouldn't? I've already said I'm sure some Thai's wouldn't have difficulties - I think most would though. That's an opinion. Just like yours is an opinion one that you have difficulty elaborating on.

You know full well that under Thai rules the experience gap between Pornsanae & Tomahawk would render your "bad example terrible example" to be bullshit because we both know even though he's aged/past it he would have won - which is why I included that example.

Your butt-hurt about it obviously - why I don't know.

Kanka's right. Pornsanae is a bad defensive fighter, he was totally shot at that point and he was fighting a guy who was 10-15lbs bigger. Therefore you can't draw any general conclusion from that fight, not to mention the fact that it's just one fight. Moreover, what about all the Kard Cheuk fights you have in Thai Fight? The Thais who fight there don't seem to be particularly offset by the change in equipment, they beat the shit out of the opposition same as they would in any ordinary Muay Thai bout.

If there was adequate Thai representation in your imagined rule set, they'd be even more successful than they are in kickboxing.

 

[Kanka]

I think Kunlun Fight is the future of kickboxing, too bad it's not very accesible for us in the west. I think i remember seeing a pic of Glory being in talks with chinese organisations. Does anybody know if they've negotioated anything particular?

 

[Snubnoze707]

I think Kunlun Fight is the future of kickboxing, too bad it's not very accesible for us in the west. I think i remember seeing a pic of Glory being in talks with chinese organisations. Does anybody know if they've negotioated anything particular?

Maybe @Shadess can offer some insight, as apparently this is the biggest news in Kickboxing ever...

 

[Karaev fan]

No I'm saying the ruleset doesn't allow for style vs style matchups.

I'm saying in the past style vs style matchups existed because K1 was new - everyone stuck to what they knew & it was trial by error. No-one had really conformed to the ruleset yet because it was new.

That's why despite the rules style vs style matchups were common - over time as kickboxers evolved everyone conformed more to the kickboxing ruleset - it happens with any/every sport. You won't find top tier kickboxers now with hands like Filho or Hug for example and it was because of that you don't find guys with unique skill sets like the kicking styles/repertoire of Hug or Filho. That's my point.

Changpuek struggled precisely because he didn't conform to the kickboxing ruleset - it was entertaining as hell.

That's what made the early K1 entertaining and why every now and then I'll watch an old K1 fight.

It's sad because K1 was originally created for standup style vs style matchups not kickboxing fights - it unfortunately evolved into that.

I understand where you're coming from, but I also think its something inevitable and not necessarily a reason for K-1's decline.

There are plenty of legit karateka in K-1 Japan ranging from shinkarate types like Noiri, kyokushin types like Komiyama, shotokan types like Yamazaki and even kudo guys like Akimoto. Despite their arsenal of flashy kicks though (well, besides Akimoto), they all have a working knowledge of boxing and you don't see anyone with no face punching experience going in there like Filho and Hug looking for the ichigeki. When a sport matures, you just can't be competitive when you have gaping holes in the fundamentals. Just look at MMA. That was supposed to be a no bars hold free for all, yet now everyone seems to coalesce to the same generic boxer-wrestler or muay thai-jiu-jitsu archetype. I would also note that this general convergence of styles hasn't really hurt the UFC's popularity (though I do miss the guys fighting K-1 in gis).

The moment you set a ruleset and popularize it, you're going to have a generation of fighters optimized for it. Can't be stopped.

 

[Shadess]

Maybe @Shadess can offer some insight, as apparently this is the biggest news in Kickboxing ever...

Twisting my words I said all the stuff around then was probably the biggest happenings in the last 10 years or so in the sport.

Stadium show with 10's of thousands of people, couple new huge tv channels in China got into broadcasting kickboxing and whatever else happened around then. Yet to really see any kind of even semi rational argument against.

So if you missed it, Yao Ming the NBA dude's company invested in Glory along another company and they'll apparently start something in China. Just straight up more Glory events or a ~separate Glory China or whatever who knows at this point.

About Kunlun the very much unconfirmed rumour is they're merging with Wu Lin Feng or buying them (how would that even work?). Could be just BS spinned by someone aligned with the Glory/Rise of Heroes camp who are no longer on Henan TV for any of their fights.

Rise of Heroes is supposedly getting a better timeslot/more airtime starting 2017. They got couple upcoming shows in Europe too. Glory of Heroes was supposed to do a Chinese NYE show in Henan but Wu Lin Feng is doing that instead, that is usually the biggest show of the year for Wu Lin Feng I think. Glory of Heroes will now do their own show. Don't know where will broadcast, could be on Beijing TV along with the Rise of Heroes stuff or some other channel.

 

[Kanka]

I hope they make Kunlun streamable in HD in europe :/