Why is sport jiu jitsu...

[TheHighlander]

Reaping of the leg on a straight achilles has been illegal as long as I can remember.

I thought reaping was the act of using your leg to turn theirs, as opposed to simply wrapping your legs around them? Is there also a restriction on turning to the side/belly down without the legs being wrapped?

I was competing frequently in 2004/2005 and it seemed like every ref had their own interpretation of what was legal/illegal. In one memorable case I attempted to perform the achilles lock in a manner identical to what was demonstrated in the rules meeting only to receive a warning and have the match restarted standing. As a result I've pretty much sworn off leg locks in competition and have worked to reduce their usage while rolling. Unfortunately, a side effect of this is that leg lock defence is weakened.

 

[David_Jacobs]

Somebody just brought up the issue of calf/bicep slicers... I have a question:

Why does BJJ disregard, downplay, or altogether ban bicep slicers and calf crushers? Is it because they're believed to be "too dangerous" to train, or for the exact opposite reason in that they're believed to be "low percentage" submissions? I've been told it's because they're "useless" by a pretty accomplished BJJ guy I often see at my gym... but he also said "catch is for ***gots and is totally worthless" (word for word) so I'm not sure he's such a good source, haha.

Like, if they're "low percentage," why bar them in competition? Can anyone help me out here?

Bicep and calf slicers are not barred in/banned from competition. Like kneebars, they are legal for brown and black belts.

 

[Falconry]

So why is a calf slicer not a legal technique for a blue or purple belt?

 

[David_Jacobs]

I thought reaping was the act of using your leg to turn theirs, as opposed to simply wrapping your legs around them? Is there also a restriction on turning to the side/belly down without the legs being wrapped?

I was competing frequently in 2004/2005 and it seemed like every ref had their own interpretation of what was legal/illegal. In one memorable case I attempted to perform the achilles lock in a manner identical to what was demonstrated in the rules meeting only to receive a warning and have the match restarted standing. As a result I've pretty much sworn off leg locks in competition and have worked to reduce their usage while rolling. Unfortunately, a side effect of this is that leg lock defence is weakened.

The reaping itself is not permitted. Additionally, even if your leg is placed correctly (i.e., not reaped), you are not allowed to turn to the opposite side because it puts pressure on the knee similar to the leg reap.

Here's an example to help explain:

If I am facing my opponent and we are both on our butts and I have his right leg under my left armpit for the achilles lock, I am allowed to roll to my left and his right, but I cannot roll to my right/his left.

It is an unfortunate fact that refs will not all be on the same page with respect to the rules. Inconsistent reffing is bad. Additionally, someone mentioned earlier that the rules listed on the official cbjj site did not specify that the leg cannot be reaped. This is true and they rules also do not explain the detail about which way you can roll that I just described. I know Prof. Mansor is doing his best to make the written rules as complete as possible, but that is why these rules meetings/referee seminars are so important.


Lastly, I realize that on this thread and on another thread I posted on recently, I mentioned the number of times I've competed and have been a referee in the Pan Ams. I think those facts were relevant to the thread both times, but I apologize if I'm starting to sound like a bore.

 

[David_Jacobs]

So why is a calf slicer not a legal technique for a blue or purple belt?

I can't say for sure, but I suspect that, like the kneebar, etc., it's to protect against injury.

The referee seminars only explain what the rules are. The seminars do not get into the debate of why the rules are or the seminars would last for 2 weeks instead of one day.

Look, there is definitely room for debate on whether the rules should be changed and you know the cbjj also thinks so because they update and modify the rules from time to time.

 

[David_Jacobs]

BTW, have I mentioned that I've competed in the Pan Ams since 1968 and am an Olympic jiu jitsu referee?

 

[Jimmy Cerra]

BTW, have I mentioned that I've competed in the Pan Ams since 1968 and am an Olympic jiu jitsu referee?

Holy crap, you're old! :icon_lol:

 

[David_Jacobs]

I also taught Al Gore how to invent the internet.

 

[Sean-Roberts]

Whats the point of even trying a footlock then if your a blue belt. if you can cross your foot over the body then its way to easy to escape.

 

[TheHighlander]

The reaping itself is not permitted. Additionally, even if your leg is placed correctly (i.e., not reaped), you are not allowed to turn to the opposite side because it puts pressure on the knee similar to the leg reap.

Here's an example to help explain:

If I am facing my opponent and we are both on our butts and I have his right leg under my left armpit for the achilles lock, I am allowed to roll to my left and his right, but I cannot roll to my right/his left.

Thanks for the information. I've run into the rolling situation as well. The direction is determined relative to the person in the leg lock (i.e you can roll to their outside but not inside)?

I think my confusion stems from me considering "reaping" to be a verb, indicating a particular action (in this context exerting lateral pressure on the knee) while it seems to be defined differently and I am not certain what is being considered "reaping".

I'd appreciate it if you would indicate any potential illegal techniques (for say blue belt level) in the following:
1. Falling straight back with soles of both feet on the opponent's belly and opponent's leg (the one being attacked) between my thighs.
2. Falling straight back with both of my opponent's legs trapped between my thighs and my feet on top of their thighs/belly.
3. From open guard, opponent's left leg in my right armpit, stepping over (i.e. turning to the right) to end with my knees straddling the attacked leg and finishing by arching hips down.
4. Standing achilles using figure four grip with arms and pinning the free thigh with one foot.
5. Crossed ankle achilles while back-mounted
6. #5 but from back body triangle (not usually crossed ankle though, more using the triangle to attack the leg in back of the knee).

 

[batman69]

BTW, have I mentioned that I've competed in the Pan Ams since 1968 and am an Olympic jiu jitsu referee?

did i mention the fact that i feel like the old guy on the mats quite a bit and i wasn't even born yet when you started competing at the pan ams.

 

[Jimmy Cerra]

did i mention the fact that i feel like the old guy on the mats quite a bit and i wasn't even born yet when you started competing at the pan ams.

The pan ams weren't goin on in 1968. They started in 1995 according to the IBJJF's web site:

International Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Federation

Dave's just being funny. He is an old fart, though.

 

[batman69]

The pan ams weren't goin on in 1968. They started in 1995 according to the IBJJF's web site:

International Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Federation

Dave's just being funny. He is an old fart, though.

i know there were no pan ams in 1968, i was trying to return the funny by making him seem even older.

 

[DaRuckus337]

In my opinion, ALL leglocks should be fair game if they are a response to a leg attack (and yes, I know this is not a particularly 'practical' suggestion). In other words, when my opponent tries to slap a kneebar or achilles lock on me, I should be allowed to counter with any leg-lock in the book, gi or no gi. I don't initiate leg-lock battles, but whenever people try to slap one on me, I counter with a toe hold (I agree that they are probably the highest percentage submission in the sport). I just found out after nearly breaking a purple belt at my gyms leg (it's not as bad as it sounds - the extra pressure on the leg built up because he pulled at one of the arms on his foot, making the lock much tighter) that toe holds are illegal in gi matches under ibjjf rules. I have no idea why this is, since unlike heel hooks, there isn't a big 'riction-factor', but apparently the mysterious phrase 'mata leo foot' means no toe holds.

 

[Calibur]

I have no idea why this is, since unlike heel hooks, there isn't a big 'riction-factor', but apparently the mysterious phrase 'mata leo foot' means no toe holds.

Toe holds can be extremely dangerous to the knee depending on if the attacked leg is extended or not. If my opponent gets the keylock and my leg is bent the move is just a footlock. If my leg becomes extended (because I kick or because my opponent pulls) it becomes a very powerful knee crank.

I think they are worse than heelhooks because with a HH when my opponent gets the position I know he has the sub. It's my decision on whether I want to risk escape or not. A toe hold is extremely high percentage, but it can go from harmless to career ending really fast, and even with experience I dont think you can roll to avoid damage once it is locked on.

I really wish I could see some stats on achilles lock injuries because I've done them for years the "reaping" way and never injured anyones knees with it. You are either going for the HH or you are not. Personally, I call bull on the IBJJF rule.

 

[DaRuckus337]

^ from my personal experience, I've had lasting pains or injuries from heel hooks and achilles locks, but never toe holds (or kneebars, for that matter). I'm sure everyone's body works a little differently, but for me, I have gotten some serious 3 week bone contusions from achilles locks, some torn knee cartilage from heel hooks, but never anything more than 2 day soreness from toe holds. I agree they're powerful, but the lateral ankle ligaments are designed to give a little bit when stretched, and I feel like this gives you extra time to react to the lock and either move or tap.

 

[Calibur]

^ from my personal experience, I've had lasting pains or injuries from heel hooks and achilles locks, but never toe holds (or kneebars, for that matter). I'm sure everyone's body works a little differently, but for me, I have gotten some serious 3 week bone contusions from achilles locks, some torn knee cartilage from heel hooks, but never anything more than 2 day soreness from toe holds. I agree they're powerful, but the lateral ankle ligaments are designed to give a little bit when stretched, and I feel like this gives you extra time to react to the lock and either move or tap.

Kneebars are no problem for me. Even when I start feeling pain, Im only hurting for a couple of days. The achilles lock is no problem and a tight toe hold only hurts my foot for a day or two UNLESS my leg is somehow stretched out. That's where bad bad stuff happens. I dont think (I could be wrong) it has anything to do with ankle flexibility. One second your knee is okay, the next second its not.

It's a really fine line for that move, which is why banning that move is justified IMO even if it can be done harmlessly. The achilles lock limitations make no sense to me though.

 

[DaRuckus337]

The only technique I'm really against is heelhooks. They're cool moves, but they really are dangerous, really do cause serious injury, and really don't have a place in amateur grappling comeptitions. For professional circuits and mma fights, they're fine, but for amateur competitors, they are simply too risky.

IMO, the proof of their danger is in the fact that you will find VERY few proven competitors who think it is wise to train in an environment where finishing heelhooks is appropriate. Everywhere I have been or heard about considers heelhooks a no-finish move in practice. You just grab it and let it go. On the flip side, almost no place I have trained considers toeholds, kneebars, or achilles locks to be off-limit techniques for experienced guys to apply in training (in no-gi, anyways).

I think the sport polices itself in this way. The techniques and actions that really do cause frequent injury quickly find themselves 'off-limits' in training- gi or no-gi. You don't slam, you don't do small joint locks, you don't do trachea chokes, you don't do face locks or cervicals - they're dangerous, and people quickly realize that they don't belong in daily training because people will get injured. This isn't the case with toe holds. They're used everywhere in no-gi training on a daily basis because they really don't pose a particularly high injury risk. Because of this, and because I do not consider friction to be a regular factor in the danger or success of toe holds, I don't see any sound reason for the ban on toe holds in gi competitions. Just my take, but I don't understand why they're forbidden.